Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 922 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-18-2016, 01:54 PM
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@dsrussell I agree with you. I often recommended the PSA trial period (meaning no harm by doing so) because I figured that once a person heard the PSA product they would keep it. Besides, isn't that what a risk free in home trial period is supposed to be about? Actually ordering the product to try in one's home risk free? I never imagined that there would be schmucks abusing it for kicks and giggles. I figured that only serious shoppers were ordering products. I guess I'm a bit naive.

But I do take a little offense at the mindset that we were flippantly telling people to order from PSA to "kick the tires" because you can always return it. That wasn't at all the mentality behind any of us recommending the PSA perk of free returns.

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Old 07-18-2016, 02:12 PM
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I know this isn't the issue but I (like many others) care a lot about the free shipping to the customer. The very first subwoofer I truly considered ordering was from Hsu but their lack of free shipping made me rule them out very quickly. I figured shipping from CA. to VA. was going to be expensive on a sub so that was that.

I am aware that the cost of free shipping is built in to the cost of the sub (no such thing as a free lunch) but for me I like knowing the final price instead of getting excited at the price of the sub and then getting deflated when I see $100 added on at check out.

LOL… But the final straw that made me buy PSA was not the free shipping or the great reviews by people like basshead, Brian etc. (which were very helpful) but that I got so annoyed at Shadyj and his posts against PSA I figured they had to be good. So it can truly be said that Shady gets a lot of credit for at least one customer buying PSA. I think that's pretty funny.
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Old 07-18-2016, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I've traded up to different subs so many times with both Tom and Jim and always offered to pay for return shipping for the trade in(s). Some times I would get PSA's shipping rate which is a little lower than my actual shipping charges. Considering I'm only an hour + away shipping wasn't always that bad at all. I would rather see no free return shipping than price increases across the board. I think inflating the price say $100 as Tom suggested and if you like the sub(s) that $100 could be refunded or used as credit.

On a sad side note Bob (Bad1550) sold his what 6-8 months old dual V3600i's for $2000 the pair, what a shame and a loss. He's offering his three 210s for $1500 as well in the classifieds, that's giving his audio gear away . If I knew he was going to let the 3600s go for $2000 I would have driven to NY myself. Well just wanted to give a heads up to all and anyone looking for some nice speakers.......

He actually lives pretty near to me but I couldn't swing the $2000 at this time...I already have dual v3600's ($4000, plus moved into a new home with some reno being done). I wish I would have known two months ago, then I would grabbed them off of him mosdef. Time and chance happeneth to them all. I hope things work out for him and send him my best wishes.
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Old 07-18-2016, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
But I do take a little offense at the mindset that we were flippantly telling people to order from PSA to "kick the tires" because you can always return it. That wasn't at all the mentality behind any of us recommending the PSA perk of free returns.
Like Tom's comments, mine weren't directed at any one individual - it was a blanket statement used to quantify my viewpoint. As it turned out, there were so many people abusing the spirit of the program that PSA finally had to throw in the towel. When one of the most customer-focused ID company's has to backtrack on an initiative like that it clearly shows how frequently it was misused. I'm sure your recommendation - and that of many others - lead to sales for the company, but in the end too many people violated the trust PSA placed in them and that ultimately forced their hand. Those are the people I'm referring to.


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LOL… But the final straw that made me buy PSA was not the free shipping or the great reviews by people like basshead, Brian etc. (which were very helpful) but that I got so annoyed at Shadyj and his posts against PSA I figured they had to be good. So it can truly be said that Shady gets a lot of credit for at least one customer buying PSA. I think that's pretty funny.
That's the definition of irony! I would imagine Tom is laughing hysterically at the paradox. It's the one (and only) time I wish shady wasn't banned, just so he could see how much you benefited PSA.
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Old 07-18-2016, 03:37 PM
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I bought my 15v with the knowledge that I couldn't return it without paying big money to ship it back myself. Tom's recommendations, advice, and info helped in my decision over the v1500 because I would be at little to no disadvantage from a performance standpoint in my room while also gaining the advantage of no woofer to bump, bang, push in, kick, scratch, or otherwise damage. The shipping back never really factored in and I had done research on other brands that also offered a trial period and never felt that I would return any of them. After I had it a while I went ahead and ordered an Antimode from PSA as well which brought it to a whole new level. Sure I want more power like anyone but I am able to prevent myself from buying more stuff luckily lol.

I generally don't make it a habit to return things unless it's broken. Even through Amazon I've never taken advantage of their easy return policy just to test a product out. I've never really felt right about that. Maybe it was my years working retail that altered my perspective. I can totally see the benefit of offering a trial, but having interacted with Tom through Chat and others on this forum I would feel and did feel totally confident in my purchase right off the bat, trial period or no.
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Old 07-18-2016, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Like Tom's comments, mine weren't directed at any one individual - it was a blanket statement used to quantify my viewpoint. As it turned out, there were so many people abusing the spirit of the program that PSA finally had to throw in the towel. When one of the most customer-focused ID company's has to backtrack on an initiative like that it clearly shows how frequently it was misused. I'm sure your recommendation - and that of many others - lead to sales for the company, but in the end too many people violated the trust PSA placed in them and that ultimately forced their hand. Those are the people I'm referring to.

It's all good, and I knew where you were coming from because as it turns out you were right. I just never thought there would be SO many people abusing such a great program. Like I said... I was naive.



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That's the definition of irony! I would imagine Tom is laughing hysterically at the paradox. It's the one (and only) time I wish shady wasn't banned, just so he could see how much you benefited PSA.
LOL… Yeah I laugh every time I think about it. I have A LOT of PSA gear now and it all started in part by Shady's constant bashing. Of course it helped that a lot of respected members were at odds with him so I felt safe in choosing PSA.
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Old 07-18-2016, 04:55 PM
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The free shipping both ways was a great thing while it lasted. I did use it once as well.

When I got the 3 210's I still had the XS30 and talking with Tom quite a bit about trying out a real, quality vented sub so when I bought the last 3 210's of the first run Tom suggested to try an XV15. Unfortunately for me life happened and my dad ended up in Mass General with a severe stroke. I barely had time to test the speakers (Tom graciously extended the 30 day trial) never mind a sub as well. The speakers stayed and the sub went back-unopened. I offered to pay the return shipping and Tom declined several times.

On the flip side, when I ordered dual S3000i's at once it was as much because of the free return shipping as was the offer presented by Tom for the trade of my XS30. I pretty much knew that one would stay but unsure of two. Had the return shipping not been covered I really dont think I would have ordered two at one time. One S3000i did the job very well and I likely would have left it at that had I ordered only one, but the second one was sitting in the box and calling out for me to plug it in. Of course it stayed once it was opened up and dialed in a bit.

Give a little, take a little is OK and likely in the spirit of the program's intention. Its when the take really outweighs the give that something needs to be done.
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Old 07-18-2016, 07:00 PM
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Hi all,

The free return shipping promotion has been an interesting experiment for Power Sound Audio but we may be discontinuing it in the near future. There are several factors involved.

1)We have found that the majority of returns have not been in the "spirit" we anticipated. This isn't a "dig" on *any* customer---it was our miscalculation. A rough breakdown on our returns to date would be as follows.

a) 1/4 being what we had intended. Customers simply not liking the product performance for one reason or another.
b) 1/4 being products that have not even been opened. A common comment in these cases is "I could just tell from the size of the shipping box, the product won't work for me". Or, they auditioned the product and loved it BUT...it is just too big(often WAF is cited). The accompanying comment is often "I should have taken a minute to check the size with a tape measure, sorry". In some cases we'll ship out a 5.1 or even a 7.2 system. Have it returned with nothing opened but two speakers, ouch.
c) 1/4 being multiple purchases from us simultaneously with the intent to just keep the one(out of two or even three) that they like best.
d) 1/4 being returned after a comparison with a competing product with the reasoning of "Well, they both performed so similar it just makes sense to return yours for free rather than pay $200-300 to return the other product".

Again, NONE of this implies any fault with the customer. We have accepted every return without reservation. We just didn't predict the large percentage of our returns would be because of these reasons( b, c, and d).

2)We have been absorbing cost increases across the board on for all products. This ranges from a few pennies(per product) in miscellaneous hardware to much higher amounts on components like amplifiers, cabinets, and drivers. Every year, these all tend to increase between 4% and 11% This puts us in the difficult position of cutting costs or increasing pricing. Cutting costs would be easy if we sacrificed our Made-in-USA ideology but that will always be a "last resort" scenario for us. So given the choice of increasing the pricing $50-150 per product OR possibly eliminating the "free returns promotion" we are facing a difficult decision.

3)After crunching all of the numbers for the past 45/90 days we've learned that if we discontinue the free shipping promotion it will allow us to maintain our current pricing on most products. There could still be one or two that need to increase(but that is better than most/all!). It would also give us the flexibility to offer a couple more/improved "perks" in our terms and conditions. For example, one change we'll likely make is increasing the trial period from 30 days to 60 days.

Anyway, we're just trying to keep everyone "in the loop" so to speak. Please feel free to comment away..

Thanks.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom, I think a smart option, taking into account what you have posted above, is to maintain free shipping on all products along with the 30 day trial. However, I would eliminate the free return shipping. I believe that this would discourage those who "blindly" ordered products without taking into account things like size before ordering. Knowing they have to eat the return shipping, they would have measured first.

Also, the scenario of two products performing similarly, perhaps they would keep your product "Made in the USA" rather than keeping the made in China product.

Anyway, I think you would be rewarding customers who are not "abusing" the free shipping/trial policy, while discouraging the unforeseen abuse of the program.

Just like in health care, those that are getting their healthcare paid for by their neighbors are going to the ER for a runny nose. Those that work for a living and have to make that co-pay aren't going to abuse the system.
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Old 07-18-2016, 07:32 PM
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Returning seven packages of which only two were actually opened is abuse of the free return shipping policy. Tom I would increase the 30 day to sixty and and not factor in any extra money into the selling price that could be refunded back to the customer if they decide to keep the sub(s) but offer buyer pay a percentage of return shipping or a flat rate of $50ish or so. Just thinking out loud.....
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Old 07-18-2016, 08:40 PM
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The best piece of advice I can give you is to not do anything different then what you would on a day-to-day basis. Sure, push them - and find some brutal test material to do it with - but when all is said and done the subs wil perform more 'light duty' tasks then strenuous one. Tune everything and beat the h#ll out of them, but be sure to also pretend you already own them and see how they fare under normal circumstances.
Really good point jim.

Yes I defiantly plan on putting both through there paces, but I don't see myself doing any crazy insane torture tests. For one Im not trying to blow anything up lol. And for 2 I agree it's best to do most testing at levels I would likely listen at (most movies end up around -10 or 12 from refrence) as that is whats most critical to me.

Don't worry though rest assured I wanna know what they can do for those "demo" moments.

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Old 07-18-2016, 09:14 PM
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The fact that PSA is still made in the USA, with the performance, quality, customer service, and warranty that arguably rivals or bests nearly everything even remotely close in price/class (foreign or domestic), should tell the buyer this company works seriously hard to provide an amazing audio experience and earn their business/respect.

It's sad people ordered a 5.1/7.1 system and sent them back without even opening all the boxes...that's messed up. Obviously, not being happy with the performance is one thing, but blindly buying speakers/subs that won't even fit the space is ignorant, abusive, and disrespectful.

If the PSA product pictures, detailed descriptions, and testimonials don't provide enough information, perhaps these buyers didn't bother reading or didn't care to properly research because of the generous return policy. Maybe some of these returns had buyers remorse of the wallet and/or were just floating the trial on a credit card...who knows.

I think that free shipping to the customer by itself is already enough of a sign of good faith in the product. I hope eliminating the free returns doesn't affect your prospective sales, but if it negates a price increase, that'll hopefully offset any decline in interest related to the shipping policy change.
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Old 07-18-2016, 09:17 PM
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@newc33 what size is you room? Sealed or open to other rooms?

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Old 07-18-2016, 09:24 PM
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Approximately 14x16x9 plus a medium closet... room is sealed

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Old 07-18-2016, 09:25 PM
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And on the second floor

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Old 07-18-2016, 11:18 PM
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Approximately 14x16x9 plus a medium closet... room is sealed

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So, roughly 2100 ft^3
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:30 PM
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So, roughly 2100 ft^3
Correct

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Old 07-18-2016, 11:33 PM
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Batman vs Superman vs V1800's! I've got another 5 hours until the house is awake.../taps foot
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:37 PM
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So, roughly 2100 ft^3
Okay i always forget so I went re me assured. The room is 14x16x8(not 9). Also the closet on one wall takes up approximately 9x2.5x8

Grand total of about 1600ft^3

Sorry about that.

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Old 07-18-2016, 11:38 PM
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Approximately 14x16x9 plus a medium closet... room is sealed

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You won't be lacking for headroom as I don't see either pair running out of gas. I feel confident saying that this will come down purely to SQ. I feel you are quite qualified to judge based on your previous pairs of subs.

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Old 07-18-2016, 11:51 PM
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You won't be lacking for headroom as I don't see either pair running out of gas. I feel confident saying that this will come down purely to SQ. I feel you are quite qualified to judge based on your previous pairs of subs.

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Thanks Marc!

Your most likely correct about the SQ. Theese subs are simply so beastly for a room the size of mine, I don't see headroom being issue either.

I was watching San Andreas with the mv-10 and gammas running 5db hot and it was no problem for them. Honestly I love having tons of headroom for demos and getting the occasional wild hair, but rarely do I sit and watch entire movies that loud. I don't expect the 3600i to have a problem with that volume either.

It's gonna be fun!

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Old 07-18-2016, 11:53 PM
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Also I can't wait to see what happens when I add the 3600s to the gammas using all 4 subs.

If I can make everything play well together I think I'll be in for a treat!

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Old 07-19-2016, 12:21 AM
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Also I can't wait to see what happens when I add the 3600s to the gammas using all 4 subs.

If I can make everything play well together I think I'll be in for a treat!
In a 1600^3ft room, I hope you've got seatbelts! Sounds like you're in for a ride :smiley:
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Old 07-19-2016, 04:13 AM
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Batman vs Superman vs V1800's! I've got another 5 hours until the house is awake.../taps foot
Sekosche, DO provide an update when you can! Some of us are getting it today, but cannot demo until this weekend.
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Old 07-19-2016, 04:54 AM
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Okay i always forget so I went re me assured. The room is 14x16x8(not 9). Also the closet on one wall takes up approximately 9x2.5x8

Grand total of about 1600ft^3

Sorry about that.
I get 1,972ft^3 with closet.
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:28 AM
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I can totally see the benefit of offering a trial, but having interacted with Tom through Chat and others on this forum I would feel and did feel totally confident in my purchase right off the bat, trial period or no.
That reminds me of another "eyeroll" type of scenario I go through a couple times a week.

Potential customer in chat/phone has a situation that really requires a large vented sub, the V1500/1800 for example. But they decide to go with the S1500/1800 because a vented subwoofer won't sound good for music and the budget isn't there for the S3000i/S3600i. I repeatedly explain that the vented = no music POV is just a myth as a well engineered vented sub will sound wonderful for all source material. AND, I explain that I don't feel like the S1800 is going to give them the type of upgrade they are expecting with action movies at LOUD levels. Meh---what do I know---they order the S1800. We ship, they get it, 1 day later...can I get a return label. I'm like what one second please I need to go flush a few hundred dollars down the toilet..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

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Old 07-19-2016, 06:30 AM
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Batman vs Superman vs V1800's! I've got another 5 hours until the house is awake.../taps foot
Hey, an in-focus photo with good lighting that shows the real fit/finish of a product.. You guys see a "slot port"(yawn). I see a month of effort to end up with something that doesn't look like the goonies built it in their club house..


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

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Last edited by Tom Vodhanel; 07-19-2016 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Batman vs Superman vs V1800's! I've got another 5 hours until the house is awake.../taps foot
Sekosche, DO provide an update when you can! Some of us are getting it today, but cannot demo until this weekend.
25 minutes in and I'm getting a great back massage at reference with the subs +8dB over Audyssey. Almost constant bass, fairly hot with a lot of 110-115dB transients...yes I sometimes measure while watching :smiley:
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:44 AM
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You won't be lacking for headroom as I don't see either pair running out of gas. I feel confident saying that this will come down purely to SQ. I feel you are quite qualified to judge based on your previous pairs of subs.

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Finally! Someone brings up the point that really matters… Sound Quality!

In a room the size that newC33 has it really doesn't matter what someone's spreadsheet shows for max output because either set of subs will beat that room into submission with headroom to spare. Why does everyone get fixated on output when you're talking about a situation where the output isn't going to be a factor?

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Thanks Marc!

Your most likely correct about the SQ. Theese subs are simply so beastly for a room the size of mine, I don't see headroom being issue either.
Exactly! Unless you lose your mind and decide to test these subs in an unrealistic manner that will never pertain to your daily listening habits I doubt output will be a factor. Even then I don't think it would be a factor.

What you really need to focus on is how well the subs do everything from playing music (which happens to make up a lot of what we hear in movies) to handling the LFE (which either sub should be able to do effortlessly). Listen for good clean tight bass. Bass with a crispness and clarity to it. Pay attention for balanced bass as well. Does the subwoofer sound as good in the upper levels as it does in the lower levels.

Personally I don't care if a sub has extension down to single digits or if it has power that I will never use if the DSP wasn't done correctly and I end up with all sorts of muddy bass. A great subwoofer should be able to do everything.
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:50 AM
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No doubt that free return shipping is a big incentive for buyers, and it’s a great way to sell more subs because the buyer has no risk financially, but I understand that it can affect the bottom line a hurry. I often advocated trying out SVS and PSA because of the risk-free trial. I simply assumed that returns would have been marginal, otherwise those companies couldn’t keep the policy. Turns out, the returns weren’t marginal after all, and we now see that PSA cannot continue the policy. Sad day for the consumer, but I guess not totally unexpected.
You know the number of returns was never an attention getter for us so to speak. We often go 2-3 weeks without a single return. But, a few weeks back we had something like 20 products returned over two days. there were a couple of 5/7speaker+sub orders which accounted for the large majority. So in the scheme of things we really don't get a ton of "order" returns. But when one order might be 10 products----ouch...

Seeing 18-20 boxes stacked up for inspection led us to start crunching the numbers. We didn't expect what the numbers told us so we crunched again and again(30/60/90 days). Each time the end result was the same---end the promotion. Assuming we do we'll go back to our original model. Shipping TOO the customer included in all pricing. If the product is returned within the audition period we will only deduct the RETURN shipping from the refund. Same thing we do now with all freight shipments for example.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

“The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.”
― Louis C.K.
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Old 07-19-2016, 07:45 AM
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I get 1,972ft^3 with closet.
Laserjock I'm not really explaining myslef correct.

You have to take and subtract the volume of the closet.

If there was no closet at all the room would just be approximately 14x16x8

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