Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 922 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #27631 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
Thanks Alan! So basically just putting the delay knob back to zero and adding or subtracting distance as needed in the avr would be essentially the same thing?
It is exactly the same thing.


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My guess is if increasing delay on the sub gives me better sound I would have to add distance in the avr?
Nope, you will want to subtract sub distance in the AVR, this will increase the delay. The closer the second sub is to the MLP, the more delay that is needed.

Think of it this way. You are standing in a pond and you drop two rocks at the exact same time, one 10' away and one 2' away. The waves from the closer rock are going to reach you way before the waves from the further rock. In order for the waves to reach you at the same time, you have to "delay" the drop of the closer rock. The closer the second rock, the longer that delay would need to be.
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post #27632 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
Gotcha, seems like it should be the opposite though. Looking forward to experimenting with it tonight.
If you think of it in terms of physical distance it actually makes sense. If the sub were really twice the distance from you that the speakers are wouldn't you want it to start making sound before they did? That would help insure everything blended properly and arrived at your ears simultaneously. Turning up the subwoofer trim from your AVR, or the gain on the sub itself, won't compensate for distance because those are similar to a volume adjustment (of sorts). Output is not the issue you're trying to resolve though; the bass still wouldn't be time-aligned, just louder.

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post #27633 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Totally agree.

However, it could be that people didn’t realize the size until they unboxed it and moved it into place. I used a tape measure to be sure it would fit in several locations, but a tape measure doesn’t give one the full picture. Even using the tape measure, I was surprised by how large the XS30 turned out to be. That is why many of us recommend making a cardboard cutout. That way one can truly judge the size. Of course now, the XS30 (the S3000i is the same size) doesn’t look nearly as large as it did when I first purchased it. Heck, I could even get a bigger sub .
Sooooo true. I was PM'ing you back when I was considering the XS30 and when I mentioned I did a paper template of the footprint, it was thought to be a good idea. It was a good idea but a 3-D template is really needed to get the real impact. Even with the flat template I wasnt ready for the real thing.

But alas the XS30 mysteriously became smaller rather quickly. So small that 2 S3000i are now not too big for the room and I would definitely accommodate V1800's or S3600's if the chance was there.
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post #27634 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 03:51 PM
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If I'd have done a 3d paper mockup of what I was doing to show the wife before purchasing, I'd still be playing Polk stuff. I just told her that the new stuff would be larger than what we had and real black. She's ok with how it looks......she's put up with me and my hobbies for 30 years.
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post #27635 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 05:02 PM
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So since there are a lot more experienced PSA owners here let me run some questions by you about my V1800 setup.  My setup consists of a Yamaha RXA 2020, Polk Audio RtiA9's, CSiA6 center,  etc.  Usually we only listen to music,  TV,  or movies between - 24 and - 30. I know not very loud but that's why I run the sub around 6db hot.  Normally with my old 12" sub and the Yamaha I always had to run the gain up high to get the output I wanted.  I first set the v1800 to 9:00 like others on here mentioned.  That had YPAO set the sub to +6.5. I moved the gain up to 12:00 and YPAO set the sub to - 3.0. Right now I am running the sub at +3.0 to get the 6db hot that I like.  Now my question is (and this may be from reading too much on here) do I need to raise the gain a bit more so that when I add the +6db I end up at 0.0 in YPAO? Am I over thinking all of this?

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post #27636 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 05:05 PM
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Yes turn the gain up so calibration sets the sub trim -6db then manually move it up to 0 to be +6db hot.

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post #27637 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 05:06 PM
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It's not a bad idea to try to keep the final sub trim under 0, it cuts down the possibility of clipping the sub amp.
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post #27638 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 05:07 PM
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OK. I'll try that next time the house is empty so I can run good test tones.

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post #27639 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 05:22 PM
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OK now for another question for you PSA owners.  I come from an IT background and after working at different places all these years the main server equipment was always protected by either some type of battery backup and or some type of surge protector.  My current setup is protected by two APCH15 Home Theater Power Conditioners.  Normally with my 12" sub I had it plugged into an APC LE1200 Line-R 1200VA.  Now that sub was only 375 watts.  This V1800 is 725 watts.  If the sub is not run loud it should not overpower the APC unit.  Right now the V1800 is plugged directly into the wall.  With the almost daily afternoon lighting storms here in Georgia I have been unplugging it since it's new LOL.  In the past I have not had many issues with power spikes or brown outs.  The APC units will probably beep high or low 5 or 6 times a year.  Now when we did have a power issue and a few items burned out everything on the APC's were just fine.  I did have a line conditioner take a hit that the 12" sub was on.  The line conditioner was dead but the sub was just fine.  How do all of you run your subs?  Direct wall connection? With the Conditioners I  haver never had any hum or hissing when no source is present.  Oh and also all my stuff is on 2 separate 20A breakers I had ran when we built the house were in. 

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post #27640 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 06:45 PM
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This gets brought up a couple of times a year here. The best thing to do is get a whole home surge protector installed by the power company (which I have yet to look into). That way you can plug directly into the wall ensuring that the sub is receiving full power. If you don't have the whole home protection and you don't want to risk plugging directly into the wall then Tom has often recommended getting your simple surge protector from your local hardware store for protection. My understanding is one thing you don't want to plug into is a power conditioner because they can limit the power going to the sub which can adversely affect performance.

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post #27641 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 08:25 PM
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truthfully, as far as return shipping, i don't think many would care so much about the cost of it versus the ease of the return shipping. i know for myself, if i know up front that $50-100 may be withheld from my refund, but all labels would be emailed to me and possibly even a pickup at my home rather than dragging it to the fed ex store, that would make it worthwhile to me. let's be honest, most people don't have large enough vehicles for any of the boxes PSA ships, so to get a label and a pickup at home would be worth the 50-100..that could just be my view, but i feel the general public is lazy enough to appreciate that type of return service at a known cost. as far as the story of the 7.2 system that was returned with only 2 boxes open....well, that would require 4 letter words for me to describe someone like that. what a jerk move....and if it's someone that frequents here, which i can't imagine it is, then shame on you. tom, i'm truly sorry that someone pulled a move like that. i mean, seriously, if you are that on the fence then just order a damn pair of the speakers and make your judgement from there and order the rest later if you decide to keep them. just a D move for real. i swear, as honest and as good a person as tom is and to take advantage of him and the company is just rude. but hey, it's retail and there are asshats everywhere.
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post #27642 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digler84 View Post
truthfully, as far as return shipping, i don't think many would care so much about the cost of it versus the ease of the return shipping. i know for myself, if i know up front that $50-100 may be withheld from my refund, but all labels would be emailed to me and possibly even a pickup at my home rather than dragging it to the fed ex store, that would make it worthwhile to me. let's be honest, most people don't have large enough vehicles for any of the boxes PSA ships, so to get a label and a pickup at home would be worth the 50-100..that could just be my view, but i feel the general public is lazy enough to appreciate that type of return service at a known cost. as far as the story of the 7.2 system that was returned with only 2 boxes open....well, that would require 4 letter words for me to describe someone like that. what a jerk move....and if it's someone that frequents here, which i can't imagine it is, then shame on you. tom, i'm truly sorry that someone pulled a move like that. i mean, seriously, if you are that on the fence then just order a damn pair of the speakers and make your judgement from there and order the rest later if you decide to keep them. just a D move for real. i swear, as honest and as good a person as tom is and to take advantage of him and the company is just rude. but hey, it's retail and there are asshats everywhere.
I see this often in the speaker threads. As hard as I try to convince people not to order all speakers at once, it seems to fall on deaf ears. If they would just try out the two front speakers and take the time to set them up properly, they should then know if the sound signature is what they're looking for. If it is, then order the other speakers. If it's not, it saves on shipping costs, no matter who is paying for it.

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post #27643 of 32014 Old 07-19-2016, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by digler84 View Post
truthfully, as far as return shipping, i don't think many would care so much about the cost of it versus the ease of the return shipping. i know for myself, if i know up front that $50-100 may be withheld from my refund, but all labels would be emailed to me and possibly even a pickup at my home rather than dragging it to the fed ex store, that would make it worthwhile to me. let's be honest, most people don't have large enough vehicles for any of the boxes PSA ships, so to get a label and a pickup at home would be worth the 50-100..that could just be my view, but i feel the general public is lazy enough to appreciate that type of return service at a known cost. as far as the story of the 7.2 system that was returned with only 2 boxes open....well, that would require 4 letter words for me to describe someone like that. what a jerk move....and if it's someone that frequents here, which i can't imagine it is, then shame on you. tom, i'm truly sorry that someone pulled a move like that. i mean, seriously, if you are that on the fence then just order a damn pair of the speakers and make your judgement from there and order the rest later if you decide to keep them. just a D move for real. i swear, as honest and as good a person as tom is and to take advantage of him and the company is just rude. but hey, it's retail and there are asshats everywhere.
I just want to point out that even without free return shipping, the return procedures are still the same. The customers will still get the return shipping label, which they can use to return the products or perhaps arrange for pick up at home or at work. I believe the only difference is that the return shipping cost is deducted from the refund amount.

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post #27644 of 32014 Old 07-20-2016, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That reminds me of another "eyeroll" type of scenario I go through a couple times a week.

Potential customer in chat/phone has a situation that really requires a large vented sub, the V1500/1800 for example. But they decide to go with the S1500/1800 because a vented subwoofer won't sound good for music and the budget isn't there for the S3000i/S3600i. I repeatedly explain that the vented = no music POV is just a myth as a well engineered vented sub will sound wonderful for all source material. AND, I explain that I don't feel like the S1800 is going to give them the type of upgrade they are expecting with action movies at LOUD levels. Meh---what do I know---they order the S1800. We ship, they get it, 1 day later...can I get a return label. I'm like what one second please I need to go flush a few hundred dollars down the toilet..

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This doesn't surprise me and its why as a customer I generally don't like "free" shipping. I do my research and don't order wilily nilly and for the most part don't return products that are not defective. I feel like I'm subsidizing people like this when the shipping price is built into the product. I don't mind paying for shipping my product, but I do mind paying a share of this guy's shipping. My 2 cents.
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post #27645 of 32014 Old 07-20-2016, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
This doesn't surprise me and its why as a customer I generally don't like "free" shipping. I do my research and don't order wilily nilly and for the most part don't return products that are not defective. I feel like I'm subsidizing people like this when the shipping price is built into the product. I don't mind paying for shipping my product, but I do mind paying a share of this guy's shipping. My 2 cents.
This nails it absolutely. I ordered both subs and speakers after a lot of research including studying all of the manufacturers' web sites, doing google searches, and a lot of reading about customer experiences here on AVS. I felt that I knew what I needed and what I was getting. I can't understand an impulse purchase of something like this (that you'll literally be using every day) without doing some homework first.
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post #27646 of 32014 Old 07-20-2016, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by digler84 View Post
truthfully, as far as return shipping, i don't think many would care so much about the cost of it versus the ease of the return shipping. i know for myself, if i know up front that $50-100 may be withheld from my refund, but all labels would be emailed to me and possibly even a pickup at my home rather than dragging it to the fed ex store, that would make it worthwhile to me. let's be honest, most people don't have large enough vehicles for any of the boxes PSA ships, so to get a label and a pickup at home would be worth the 50-100..that could just be my view, but i feel the general public is lazy enough to appreciate that type of return service at a known cost. as far as the story of the 7.2 system that was returned with only 2 boxes open....well, that would require 4 letter words for me to describe someone like that. what a jerk move....and if it's someone that frequents here, which i can't imagine it is, then shame on you. tom, i'm truly sorry that someone pulled a move like that. i mean, seriously, if you are that on the fence then just order a damn pair of the speakers and make your judgement from there and order the rest later if you decide to keep them. just a D move for real. i swear, as honest and as good a person as tom is and to take advantage of him and the company is just rude. but hey, it's retail and there are asshats everywhere.
Yeah, providing the return label and giving the customer the option to have the shipment picked up at their home will continue regardless. No worries about the full system returns. Everything was requested within our policy so if anything these situations are a miscalculation by Jim/myself. To be honest, out of all of the scenarios I listed(5 or 6?) I think the one that gets my goat is #4. When we hear "well, your sub and the Acme yeti I ordered to compare were so close I'm just going to send yours back because it would cost me $250 to send back the yeti. And 90% of the time I'd say this is AFTER I'd tell them the two subs would sound very similar before they'd even make the purchase. Okay, great now our policy is actually helping sell subs for our competitors

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post #27647 of 32014 Old 07-20-2016, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
This doesn't surprise me and its why as a customer I generally don't like "free" shipping. I do my research and don't order wilily nilly and for the most part don't return products that are not defective. I feel like I'm subsidizing people like this when the shipping price is built into the product. I don't mind paying for shipping my product, but I do mind paying a share of this guy's shipping. My 2 cents.
Yeah. Same here. I'd be much happier if the built in return shipping cost amount were split between profit for the company and lower price for me. In the few cases where I have bought something where I wasn't sure, I see the return shipping as a demo fee (just did that with the Elac A4s and ended up returning them for the PSB Imagine XAs). In the long run, it is still cost effective for me because I rarely do this.
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post #27648 of 32014 Old 07-20-2016, 01:38 PM
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Oh great. Now I have to look at Acme and Yeti subs.

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post #27649 of 32014 Old 07-20-2016, 02:04 PM
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^ That's funny.

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post #27650 of 32014 Old 07-20-2016, 05:47 PM
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i've never looked at the Acme sub selection. i usually just get my roadrunner catching kit of the day and head right for the checkout.
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post #27651 of 32014 Old 07-20-2016, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
This doesn't surprise me and its why as a customer I generally don't like "free" shipping. I do my research and don't order wilily nilly and for the most part don't return products that are not defective. I feel like I'm subsidizing people like this when the shipping price is built into the product. I don't mind paying for shipping my product, but I do mind paying a share of this guy's shipping. My 2 cents.
I don't think its that simple. This is like saying you don't like insurance because if you don't crash you are in effect paying for other people's repairs (I didn't say health because that tends to be a hot topic ).

These costs get amortized into product cost and I bet the customer attraction and goodwill generated is more than worth it. And what you mean is free 'return' shipping. The free shipping is directly factored into product price, return is spread out - say 5% of people return something, thats then passed on to the other 95% and ends up being cents on the dollar, which people should be glad to pay for the same convenience if needed. Its a win-win and you have great customer retention as well.

Now I may be totally wrong and if so apologies to Tom etc.
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post #27652 of 32014 Old 07-20-2016, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
I don't think its that simple. This is like saying you don't like insurance because if you don't crash you are in effect paying for other people's repairs (I didn't say health because that tends to be a hot topic ).

These costs get amortized into product cost and I bet the customer attraction and goodwill generated is more than worth it. And what you mean is free 'return' shipping. The free shipping is directly factored into product price, return is spread out - say 5% of people return something, thats then passed on to the other 95% and ends up being cents on the dollar, which people should be glad to pay for the same convenience if needed. Its a win-win and you have great customer retention as well.

Now I may be totally wrong and if so apologies to Tom etc.
I only buy the insurance/amortization analogy for product defects and returns outside customer control. Show me an insurance policy where the policy holder gets to trigger coverage for any reason or no reason at all at their sole election, and I'll show you a broke insurance company. Offering free return shipping for any reason or no reason invites abuse and artificially increases costs. And I think that was the whole point of Tom's post, that people are abusing the policy to the point where he has to discontinue the policy or materially increase the price of his product.
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post #27653 of 32014 Old 07-21-2016, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
I don't think its that simple. This is like saying you don't like insurance because if you don't crash you are in effect paying for other people's repairs (I didn't say health because that tends to be a hot topic ).

These costs get amortized into product cost and I bet the customer attraction and goodwill generated is more than worth it. And what you mean is free 'return' shipping. The free shipping is directly factored into product price, return is spread out - say 5% of people return something, thats then passed on to the other 95% and ends up being cents on the dollar, which people should be glad to pay for the same convenience if needed. Its a win-win and you have great customer retention as well.

Now I may be totally wrong and if so apologies to Tom etc.


I'm not sure the insurance analogy holds water but I'll just comment on the second paragraph. We looked at the total cost of the returned products for 30/60/90 days. There are several factors involved.

1)Shipping to the customer
2)Shipping from the customer back to us.
3)any minor blemishes on the product.
4)the time involved to unbox, inspect, re-test, rebox the product.
5)the cost of some/all new boxing for each product.
6)the time involved to update the website with product availability.
7)the difference in price between a new product and what we sell the b-stock for in the outlet.

Obviously I'm not going to get into specific net/gross percentages but I'll try to be as informative as possible..

Let's simplify it for this example and use one product that costs $1500.

1)Cost is $90
2)Cost is $95
3)we're lucky, no blemishes.
4)$20
5)$30(avg)
6)$10
7($200(avg)

So it cost us $445 total for this example. Or, we would have $445 more in our bank account if we never got this order..

Not the KEY consideration in all this is exactly what percentage of the NON returned orders would have never ordered if they didn't have the free returns option. There will be an exact XX.X% that will correlate to the losses incurred in the above example. So in terms of lost potential sales(we would have gotten if we kept the policy) there will be a % between 1 and 99 that correlates to the losses outlined above.. If the formula indicates we would need to lose 99% of sales to hit that break even(correlation)...then we drop the promotion because we'll never lose 99% of sales. Conversely, if the break even point is a 1% loss of sales, then we keep it because we will likely lose more than 1%.

Obviously the point is neither 1% or 99% but I'm just trying to explain our rational in an easy to follow generic example..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #27654 of 32014 Old 07-21-2016, 11:29 AM
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Look want arrived.

1600 cubic foot sealed room! Samsung 8500 curved 4k
denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s LCR
Ascend acoustics cmt 340se side ss.
ascend acoustics cbm170se rear ss
Quad PSA T18s!!!!!!
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post #27655 of 32014 Old 07-21-2016, 11:34 AM
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Look want arrived.
Just in time for the weekend! #TGIT
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post #27656 of 32014 Old 07-21-2016, 11:35 AM
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Yup and I just happen to be off for 2 weeks to

1600 cubic foot sealed room! Samsung 8500 curved 4k
denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s LCR
Ascend acoustics cmt 340se side ss.
ascend acoustics cbm170se rear ss
Quad PSA T18s!!!!!!
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post #27657 of 32014 Old 07-21-2016, 11:40 AM
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Hmmm… PSA Yeti (copyright that before someone steals it!). 84" tall 4x18" V7200i to get that ceiling boundry gain! Or 6x18" drivers sealed to annihilate the Paradigm Sub2. Then you can call the 6x15" Son of Yeti. When can I preorder?
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post #27658 of 32014 Old 07-21-2016, 11:44 AM
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Hmmm… PSA Yeti (copyright that before someone steals it!). 84" tall 4x18" V7200i to get that ceiling boundry gain! Or 6x18" drivers sealed to annihilate the Paradigm Sub2. Then you can call the 6x15" Son of Yeti. When can I preorder?
For me please:

2x V7200i Yeti plus 1x S10800 Godzilla(Copyright that) near-field.

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post #27659 of 32014 Old 07-21-2016, 11:48 AM
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Hmmm… PSA Yeti (copyright that before someone steals it!). 84" tall 4x18" V7200i to get that ceiling boundry gain! Or 6x18" drivers sealed to annihilate the Paradigm Sub2. Then you can call the 6x15" Son of Yeti. When can I preorder?
You know, seriously now… just call Yeti the bracing system for placing 2 V3600s attop each other. Top port at the ceiling. Have you tested this config @Tom Vodhanel ? I'd need a new house first, but this would be awesome!

Someone here must be brave/crazy enough to try this. No?
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post #27660 of 32014 Old 07-21-2016, 11:53 AM
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You know, seriously now… just call Yeti the bracing system for placing 2 V3600s attop each other. Top port at the ceiling. Have you tested this config @Tom Vodhanel ? I'd need a new house first, but this would be awesome!

Someone here must be brave/crazy enough to try this. No?
Tom, I can't fit Yeti in my room permanantly but I am available for beta testing!
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