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post #3781 of 13534 Old 06-28-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

What do you define as pressurized? I'm sure we each have our own definition so just curious smile.gif

pressurized as in going down 15ft+ deep under water...if i cant feel the pressure from the subs the its not enough.
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post #3782 of 13534 Old 06-28-2013, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

Based upon my personal preference for bass (in which I want to be able to stand in the middle of the room and have it pressurize the entire volume of space) it isn't enough. It works pretty well for the main listening areas but I would definitely love to have more when listening to music. Mainly listen to trance/techno/hardstyle music....lots of hard hitting, consistent bass tones going all the time.

It is a large space to fill though so I understand why it is struggling to achieve what I want. I have yet to try it in a smaller room to test. Maybe when I can get somebody over to help me move the sub into a smaller room.

Thanks. If I had to take a guess based on your description, I would say my bass needs are a little bit less than yours.

BTW, your music preference made me think you might like a group called "Infected Mushroom". Very cool music that's well recorded and fun to crank up.

http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Black-Shawarma-Infected-Mushroom/dp/B002ODS5LM/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1372460010&sr=8-8&keywords=infected+mushroom

http://www.amazon.com/Vicious-Delicious-Infected-Mushroom/dp/B000QEIM5K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1372460049&sr=8-2&keywords=infected+mushroom
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post #3783 of 13534 Old 06-28-2013, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

pressurized as in going down 15ft+ deep under water...if i cant feel the pressure from the subs the its not enough.

Ok, just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing smile.gif

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post #3784 of 13534 Old 06-28-2013, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Thanks. If I had to take a guess based on your description, I would say my bass needs are a little bit less than yours.

BTW, your music preference made me think you might like a group called "Infected Mushroom". Very cool music that's well recorded and fun to crank up.

http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Black-Shawarma-Infected-Mushroom/dp/B002ODS5LM/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1372460010&sr=8-8&keywords=infected+mushroom

http://www.amazon.com/Vicious-Delicious-Infected-Mushroom/dp/B000QEIM5K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1372460049&sr=8-2&keywords=infected+mushroom

Thanks! Listened to a few samples.....little bit too sci-fi "spacey" for my tastes smile.gif

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post #3785 of 13534 Old 06-28-2013, 04:56 PM
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XS 30 - Dual purpose sub woofer. OK - we know that the XS 30 has 2 15" opposed drivers, but my XS 30 serves a second purpose as well. You may have read how inert the cabinet structure is - well my cat, Django, can confirm that, as he leisurely rests on top of the XS 30 with no concerns

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post #3786 of 13534 Old 06-28-2013, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The first thing I would do is separate those two subs. Lining them up in the front of the room is almost never the best way to integrate dual subs for smooth frequency response. They are essentially co-located and will mutually couple their wavefronts. IOW, they'll propagate their soundwaves as if they were one subwoofer. Separating them far apart will cause them to propagate separately and then they can have a beneficial impact on smoothing out the frequency response. Move one of them to the back of the room if possible.

Craig

PS. It does look nice though.
So should i keep my dual bic pl-200's when i buy dual psa subs and put the bic's in the back? 4 subs, wont that be to much boooooom?
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post #3787 of 13534 Old 06-28-2013, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post

So should i keep my dual bic pl-200's when i buy dual psa subs and put the bic's in the back? 4 subs, wont that be to much boooooom?

I would atleast try it...I currently have a budget jbl es250 integrated with my xv15's. If you level match the them, then the lesser sub(s) will cost headroom but has a good possibility in smoothing the response across the room. Ideally tho, its best to have all matching subs, which I plan on doing. The jbl is mainly for testing purposes.
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post #3788 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I would atleast try it...I currently have a budget jbl es250 integrated with my xv15's. If you level match the them, then the lesser sub(s) will cost headroom but has a good possibility in smoothing the response across the room. Ideally tho, its best to have all matching subs, which I plan on doing. The jbl is mainly for testing purposes.

Is it necessary to level match, or can the lesser sub be set a little lower as long as the combined output is what you want (75bd, or whatever)? Seems like setting the lesser sub a little lower would help minimize loss of headroom.

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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Is it necessary to level match, or can the lesser sub be set a little lower as long as the combined output is what you want (75bd, or whatever)? Seems like setting the lesser sub a little lower would help minimize loss of headroom.

The game was lost when the individual chose to choose a lesser sub. There is no making up for a weak link other than stressing the system no more than what the weak link is able to provide or having a willingness to live with the results of intentionally adding a weak link.

In the case of gain matching, you're matching output, not trying te meet a combined output. Combined output is a secondary consideration. I set the gain at 70dB to 73dB and in doing so maximize the headroom of each subwoofer. What ever the combined output at the MLP, in my opinion, is inconsequential and is a happenstance of the combined effort of each of the subwoofers in the room.

There is good news, if one chooses their weak links and strong links wisely, the strong link will come into it's own, right in and about where the weak link stops producing support content. But, you have to make sure to choose a link that is capable of standing on it's own for when the weak link is no longer able to provide support, you're only going have the strong link to hold things together; produce useable content. If you will, one is taking benefit of the overlap of the two combined subwoofers and expecting the stronger subwoofer to stand on it's own in the lower octaves as the weaker subwoofer's output drops out of consideration.

(I ain't even going try to pretend I have the ability to explain my above. I understand the above perfectly and the above is based on repeated sound experience (not conjecture but experience) but that don't mean I can articulate what I'm trying to communicate. Either you get my above or you're on your own with my above. Life jackets will not be issued.)
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post #3790 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post

So should i keep my dual bic pl-200's when i buy dual psa subs and put the bic's in the back? 4 subs, wont that be to much boooooom?
I wasn't suggesting that. If you get dual PSA subs, my suggestion is that you NOT place them the way you have your current subs placed. Separate them as much as possible to provide smoother frequency response throughout the room. Here is an article that explains it: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

Having said that, if you want to try to integrate the lesser subs with your new subs, you could try the technique of Earl Geddes: http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/ However, it *requires* the ability to measure your response. If you don't have that, I would not suggest it.

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post #3791 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Is it necessary to level match, or can the lesser sub be set a little lower as long as the combined output is what you want (75bd, or whatever)? Seems like setting the lesser sub a little lower would help minimize loss of headroom.
The Geddes technique linked above does just that.

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #3792 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Is it necessary to level match, or can the lesser sub be set a little lower as long as the combined output is what you want (75bd, or whatever)? Seems like setting the lesser sub a little lower would help minimize loss of headroom.

Should be fine especially if the lesser sub is nearfield.
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post #3793 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

XS 30 - Dual purpose sub woofer. OK - we know that the XS 30 has 2 15" opposed drivers, but my XS 30 serves a second purpose as well. You may have read how inert the cabinet structure is - well my cat, Django, can confirm that, as he leisurely rests on top of the XS 30 with no concerns

That pic does a very nice job of communicating the size of the XS-30. One to two of those guys ought to really be something! In a general kind of way, size does matter when it comes to subs.

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post #3794 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 08:16 AM
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I was all set to place an order for an XS-15, when my wife looked over my shoulder and said "why not get the XS-30? It's not that much more..." (do I have a great wife?). Could I inquire about shipping? I believe the XS-30 is shipped via ground freight; does someone need to sign for the shipment, or will the freight company leave the shipment? I won't be able to take a day off work for at least another month, but it would be nice not to have to wait for my new toy...biggrin.gif
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post #3795 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 08:19 AM
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^Nice wife! Yes you will have to sign unless Tom will waive the signature.
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post #3796 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 08:46 AM
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That's what I thought. I guess I'll be better off making do with my 20 year old Klipsh SW-10 for a few weeks more. That should give me time to clean up some of the mess and make room for baby...LOL
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post #3797 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The Geddes technique linked above does just that.

Thanks. I had read that before. Unfortunately my room layout won't cooperate. wink.gif. I'll just have to make the best of what I have.

I does seem to answer my question though. If the "primary" sub has sufficient output, my "secondary" sub can be set at a lower level since the purpose is to smooth the response, not add output. In this case my 16-46 may work fine, that is if my limited placement options work.

Btw, I use the term "lesser sub", but my 16-46 is no slouch. My neighbors would probably say the same. biggrin.gif

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post #3798 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The game was lost when the individual chose to choose a lesser sub. There is no making up for a weak link other than stressing the system no more than what the weak link is able to provide or having a willingness to live with the results of intentionally adding a weak link.

In the case of gain matching, you're matching output, not trying te meet a combined output. Combined output is a secondary consideration. I set the gain at 70dB to 73dB and in doing so maximize the headroom of each subwoofer. What ever the combined output at the MLP, in my opinion, is inconsequential and is a happenstance of the combined effort of each of the subwoofers in the room.

There is good news, if one chooses their weak links and strong links wisely, the strong link will come into it's own, right in and about where the weak link stops producing support content. But, you have to make sure to choose a link that is capable of standing on it's own for when the weak link is no longer able to provide support, you're only going have the strong link to hold things together; produce useable content. If you will, one is taking benefit of the overlap of the two combined subwoofers and expecting the stronger subwoofer to stand on it's own in the lower octaves as the weaker subwoofer's output drops out of consideration.

(I ain't even going try to pretend I have the ability to explain my above. I understand the above perfectly and the above is based on repeated sound experience (not conjecture but experience) but that don't mean I can articulate what I'm trying to communicate. Either you get my above or you're on your own with my above. Life jackets will not be issued.)

I do understand the point you are making, however I disagree about the level at the LP being inconsequential. It seems if you want to hear the soundtrack/music as intended, then the level at the LP should be equal for all channels (typically 75db) including the sub(s). smile.gif

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post #3799 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 10:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

It seems if you want to hear the soundtrack/music as intended, then the level at the LP should be equal for all channels (typically 75db) including the sub(s). smile.gif

Agreed. But I would agree to a point. When one sets the gain on multiple subwoofers at 70dB, with co-location and multiple subwoofer room gain, the measurement at the main listening position is close to 75dB. If using a single sub solution then one would need to set the gain higher to compensate for the lack of co-location gain and the distance factor.

My comment regarded multiple subwoofer systems as opposed to a single subwoofer solution. Agreeing with you when I post, shame on me for being overly simplistic in my comment.
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post #3800 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Agreed. But I would agree to a point. When one sets the gain on multiple subwoofers at 70dB, with co-location and multiple subwoofer room gain, the measurement at the main listening position is close to 75dB. If using a single sub solution then one would need to set the gain higher to compensate for the lack of co-location gain and the distance factor.

My comment regarded multiple subwoofer systems as opposed to a single subwoofer solution. Agreeing with you when I post, shame on me for being overly simplistic in my comment.

Ah, I see, we do agree. smile.gif

I think it's a good plan for me to get one sub, try it with mine, then determine if I want to add another. This way I'm not spending more than necessary to get what I want.

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post #3801 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 10:20 AM
 
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One wants each of the subs to start out on an equal footing as they won't automatically adjust to each other as to individual output; instead, their output will blend.

Where things fall apart is when the output of one subwoofer drops out and the last subwoofer standing is expected to carry the full of the load that started, way back when the lesser sub was capable of keeping up.

Think of it like a running partner. As long as you're holding a ten minute pace, everybody is good but once the pace drops to eight minutes, all of a sudden your running partner is nowhere to be found. The point being, is the single subwoofer capable of carrying the sonic load when the lesser subwoofer drops out. The lesser subwoofer will still be outputting content above it's limitations and the question becomes, will one notice this crossover point?

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post #3802 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 10:53 AM
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I'm seriously considering to pull the trigger on a XS30 for my room. Is there an owner of XS30 with the Cordovan Cherry veneer cabinet here? If yes, could you please post some pics or share few via PM?

Thanks in advance!
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post #3803 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

That pic does a very nice job of communicating the size of the XS-30. One to two of those guys ought to really be something! In a general kind of way, size does matter when it comes to subs.

Yeah! Just for reference the floor tiles in the picture are 12" squares. I'm real pleased with the XS - 30 performance. I previously had a dual Sunfire HRS-12 configuration in my 2500 cubic feet listening area, and the output came nowhere close to what I'm hearing from the one XS-30 - listening to well recorded Blu-Ray discs is a real ear & eye opener - and for me the result almost redefines what a sub woofer is supposed to do. I don't notice the sub's capabilities as much when watching normal programming via DirecTV & haven't had an opportunity to listen to much of my music collection - but the XS-30 certainly steps up to the plate when the soundtrack calls for it. I've been playing the sub upgrade game for too many years - no need for me to look any further! (unless I decide to get a 2nd XS-30)

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post #3804 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post

So should i keep my dual bic pl-200's when i buy dual psa subs and put the bic's in the back? 4 subs, wont that be to much boooooom?
I would think that the BiC's would not keep up with the PSA's. You may get some sloppy bass or it might sound out of sync or it might sound great? Best thing to do is just try it and see hows it goes. Certainly no such thing as to much BOOOM smile.gif There are some in here that insist of a quad sub set up. When I build my media room, quads are a must biggrin.gif
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post #3805 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

One wants each of the subs to start out on an equal footing as they won't automatically adjust to each other as to individual output; instead, their output will blend.

Where things fall apart is when the output of one subwoofer drops out and the last subwoofer standing is expected to carry the full of the load that started, way back when the lesser sub was capable of keeping up.

Think of it like a running partner. As long as you're holding a ten minute pace, everybody is good but once the pace drops to eight minutes, all of a sudden your running partner is nowhere to be found. The point being, is the single subwoofer capable of carrying the sonic load when the lesser subwoofer drops out. The lesser subwoofer will still be outputting content above it's limitations and the question becomes, will one notice this crossover point?

-
I have a hard time understanding exactly what it is you're doing, but I *think* you're using the technique known as "level-matching" even though you're calling it "gain-matching." Level-matching is when you place the SPL meter at one position in the room, (usually the primary listening position), and then you set the subwoofer amplifier's gain so that all the subs measure the same SPL at that position. You "match" the levels. The gain settings will likely be different for each sub, especially if they are different distances from the measurement position. Also, if they exhibit different modal response, they'll measure differently. For example, if one sub is 6 ft. away and the other sub is 12 ft. away, the closer sub will measure 3 to 6 dB louder than the further sub, and will therefore need to be turned down relative to the further sub. In addition, if the closer sub has more constructive reinforcement and the further sub has more destructive cancellation, the disparity in gain settings will be even more substantial. So, although you may have started out with "identical" subs, they are no longer identical. One has much more headroom than the other. This is *exactly* the issue you're trying to avoid by using identical subs!

So, what can be done? Gain-match them! Set all the subwoofer amps to the exact same gain setting regardless of what SPL they measure at some arbitrary position. The calibrate their combined output with the speakers at 75 dB. They will all drive the room with the same energy; they'll all hit their limits at the same time; and no one sub will be taxed more than any other sub.

Of course, this only works if you start out with identical subs, with identical amps and gain structures. If the subs are dissimilar then all bets are off. Level-matching may the best choice, but more likely, the "Geddes technique" I linked above will yield better results.

Craig

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post #3806 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 01:32 PM
 
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I'm gain matching the subwoofers.

Separately, with only a single sub turned on at a time, I use the gain knob on the subwoofer to get a measured output of 70dB, at a measured distance of 39" or a ~1m. Doing this, when each individual sub is turned on independently, each sub will be outputting the same SPL, at the same measured distance. After Anti-Mode and Audyssey are run, the subwoofer system is seasoned (adjusted) to what REW shows to be true and accurate; as flat as humanly possible.

Once the subwoofers are set in this fashion, their output will match to the point of the weaker subwoofer, no longer being able to keep pace with the greater subwoofer as the subwoofer system has been EQ'd flat; xHz to yHz.

Once the greater sub exceeds the output of the lesser sub, all bets are off and things get squirrely fast. The reason, now one has conjoined output and the lesser sub is no longer reinforcing the greater sub and the greater sub is left to produce on it's own, at frequencies that the lesser sub is not able to keep up with.

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post #3807 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm gain matching the subwoofers.

Separately, with only a single sub turned on at a time, I use the gain knob on the subwoofer to get a measured output 70dB, at a measured distance of 39" or a ~1m. Doing this, when each individual sub is turned on independently, each sub will be outputting the same SPL, at the same measured distance. After Anti-Mode and Audyssey are run, the subwoofer system is season to what REW shows to be true and accurate.
Take your REW mic and measure the frequency response at the 1 meter distance for each of the subs. If the subs all have the exact same response, you're gain-matching. I think it is unlikely that they'll all have the same FR at 1 meter if they are placed differently in the room. If they have different responses, you're doing something that is neither gain-matching, nor level-matching. Let's call it "BeeMan matching."

Craig

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post #3808 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 01:52 PM
 
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I just posted how the output is individually measured and matched at ~1m; 39". Not sure how much cleared I can make this point.

You're welcome to do what you suggest.

Since acquiring the 25' subwoofer cable, the next measuring session will comprise of a new placement configuration to see what measurements come of the new placement. The output of each subwoofer will separately be matched (calibrated) using the gain potentiometer on each subwoofer, a measuring tape, a type II sound meter with the output levels of the AVR's main menu subwoofer section being set to +/-0dB. The output of each individual subwoofer will be matched.

Currently we're playing in the yard with grass reseeding efforts, organic worm castings, Spring plantings, changing the drip sprinkler system around to accommodate the new plantings, taking care of automotive O2 sensor issues, detailing car paint, spraying for spiders and learning about metal detecting.

The point, it's going be a week or two before I have the mental capacity to try out the new placement locations but don't worry, in the meantime, the individual output of each of our subwoofers will continue being matched in the fashion described and life's good.

(my apologies regarding my written communication efforts being so poorly understood)

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post #3809 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I just posted how the output is individually measured and matched at ~1m; 39". Not sure how much cleared I can make this point.

You're welcome to do what you suggest.

Since acquiring the 25' subwoofer cable, the next measuring session will comprise of a new placement configuration to see what measurements come of the new placement. The output of each subwoofer will separately be matched (calibrated) using the gain potentiometer on each subwoofer, a measuring tape, a type II sound meter with the output levels of the AVR's main menu subwoofer section being set to +/-0dB. The output of each individual subwoofer will be matched.

Currently we're playing in the yard with grass reseeding efforts, organic worm castings, Spring plantings, changing the drip sprinkler system around to accommodate the new plantings, taking care of automotive O2 sensor issues, detailing car paint, spraying for spiders and learning about metal detecting.

The point, it's going be a week or two before I have the mental capacity to try out the new placement locations but don't worry, in the meantime, the individual output of each of our subwoofers will continue being matched in the fashion described and life's good.

(my apologies regarding my written communication efforts being so poorly understood)

-
The point you're missing is that, if you place each sub in the room, and then measure at 1 meter, that will be enough distance for the room interaction to impact the measurement, and the FR of each sub will be different. If one of the subs has a big peak at say, 60 Hz, and the others don't, the one with the 60 Hz peak will measure louder, and will be set lower than the other subs.

If you *really* want to gain-match the subs, you need to move them to the middle of the room and then measure each one at 1" from the driver. That way the room will have minimal impact on the measured SPL, and the subs' inherent response will be measured.

Short of that, with identical subs and identical amps, you can just set the gains to the exact same setting.

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #3810 of 13534 Old 06-29-2013, 02:34 PM
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Does the Triax have 30 mm of x-max drivers? Did Tom mention this? If so this should have about the same output as a Cap S2.
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