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post #6031 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

Right, I completely understand that at different areas in the room there will be peaks/nulls in the bass. I've experienced this myself when sitting in a listening position and then standing up and walking into the kitchen and in some spots the bass almost disappears. I know that there is a very good chance that my frequency response is not flat but as I mentioned previously that my hearing level is not as sensitive as those of you on this forum and I cannot hear any peak/nulls when listening to music/movies (I guess that's good for me?)

My whole reason for upgrading is sheer output. When sitting in my listening position the bass was the deepest/highest out of all the spots in the room (standing up and walking around the whole room) minus the loveseat directly in front of the XV30F which had about the same amount of bass. My whole point in this debate (which some would call an argument) is that there comes a point to where you can only get so much performance out of something no matter how well it is tuned.

I was at this point with the XV30F and correct me if I'm wrong but REW and measuring the room does not actually increase the performance level of the subwoofer. It can only play so loud to certain point before performance levels out or degrades. Room measuring software does help show you the best spot to place the subwoofer in your room but it doesn't actually make the subwoofer play any louder and I needed louder for my music listening preferences.

Anyways, I'll shut up now. As I'm sure you still think I'm wasting my money smile.gif

I hear you. smile.gif

A few months ago I downloaded REW and bought a mic. While it was interesting taking measurements and seeing what was going on in my room, it turns out the best spot for my sub was exactly where I had placed it before and the response from that position is quite good (certainly sounds great!). I was able to make minor tweaks to the HP and LP filters to improve the response around the crossover frequency. but there's certainly no night and day difference between what I have now compared to before REW.

If I decide to try a sub EQ unit (miniDSP?), REW will certainly be helpful, but considering the response and SQ I'm getting, I'm in no rush to spend more on additional equipment just to have a prettier graph. wink.gif I'm sure in the future I'll give EQ a try if just out of curiousity, but for now I'll sit back and enjoy! biggrin.gif (that is the point of all this....right??)

Like you, my purpose for upgrading was for more output/headroom. While my current SVS 16-46PC+ does great most of the time, every once in awhile it will bottom out if the LFE is especially low and loud (make that very loud!). I probably went overboard ordering a Triax, but I didn't want to leave any room for doubt (and an announcement at work that we would be getting a bonus this year really helped wink.gif ).
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post #6032 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

I was at this point with the XV30F and correct me if I'm wrong but REW and measuring the room does not actually increase the performance level of the subwoofer.

Actually, it does improve the performance level of the subwoofer.

What happens, when low frequency waves run into each other, they cancel each other out and at that frequency range, create a null. Because of the transitory nature of the sound track, the listener doesn't realize what is going on and doesn't know, they're being robber of performance. Until the loss of performance is added back in, you don't know what you're missing.

It's not about playing it loud but it is about getting all of the sound track. Thinks lossy music compression and how much depth is lost when the compressed material is uncompressed. Once you've experience full content, it really is hard to go back to lossy playback. With a poorly integrated subwoofer system, from personal experience, I would estimate one can easily lose twenty-five percent of their subwoofer's capability. Easily one can lose a full mid-bass octave due to a null. Nulls can easily reach down ten or twenty dB. As you know, twenty dB is one-quarter of the expected playback level. But you won't get what the sound engineer intended because the room null is sucking the life out of that particular octave.

Been there, done that, sharing.

The below graph is a before and after graph with an isolator attached. The purpose of the isolator is to eliminate a ground loop. The purple graph is what a ground loop will do to a sine wave sweep. As you can see, a simple ground loop will rob the output of over ten dB and was responsible for creating a ten dB mid-bass hump.



A graph like this tells me how successful I've been, integrating the subwoofer system into the room acoustics as my understanding, the waterfall graph represents the ringing of the room, or how tight the bass is.



Each graph has a purpose that helps guide one to get the best out of the subwoofer system that they have.

I'm running puny, outdated, Klipsch subwoofers. REW allowed me to get the best I can and yet, I have more experimentation ahead of me. For me, the improvement game isn't over as I know I can get better performance out of what we have. Through personal experience, I'm trying to encourage and nothing more. What ever you decide to do, when it arrives, I hope you'll share your experience with the Triax subwoofer as I'll be living vicariously through all of you Triax buyers. biggrin.gif

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post #6033 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 11:46 AM
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I don't see how you proved that REW or measuring the room actually increased the performance. You mention the use of an isolator to help flatten the response but I don't see any data that shows that using REW by itself allowed you to run the sub at a higher volume without its performance not leveling out or going down.

I don't really care about how flat the response is (to a point, I do care a little) but it isn't enough that I feel the need to measure. That green line on your graph will never go any higher because you measured it with REW. REW does not increase the performance it only measures it.

That's like saying that a car will go faster than its top speed when you have a radar gun pointed at it versus when you aren't measuring the speed. That isn't the case, the car can only go so fast until you add more horsepower or lower the weight to increase performance.
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post #6034 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 11:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

I don't see how you proved that REW or measuring the room actually increased the performance. You mention the use of an isolator to help flatten the response but I don't see any data that shows that using REW by itself allowed you to run the sub at a higher volume without its performance not leveling out or going down.

The two combined graphs, empirically show the performance increase. REW doesn't improve output. REW is measuring software. The isolator improves the output. REW allows me to measure and compare the two outputs so I can empirically see the changes in output.

That purple valley equals one-half the output of the green line. The green line, above the purple valley, is approximately twice as loud to human hearing. And in a transient response, for measuring purposes, you won't notice the null. But corrected, yes, it makes a huge difference in how you perceive the overall sound quality.

I can't use a direct car analogy because the difference in a subwoofer's output is beyond a human's ability to guide the changes. Maybe if you will, it's like a smog sniffer, measuring ppm of CO output. You and I can't tell the difference between 90ppm and 110ppm but it makes a difference to the DMV and the overall air quality.

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post #6035 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The two combined graphs, empirically show the performance increase. REW doesn't improve output. REW is measuring software. The isolator improves the output. REW allows me to measure and compare the two outputs so I can empirically see the changes in output.

Im afraid you are wasting your time Bee...he did not join the forum to learn. His opinions are formed and its obvious by his replies there is no changing that.
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post #6036 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 11:57 AM
 
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Im afraid you are wasting your time Bee...

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post #6037 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

That green line on your graph will never go any higher because you measured it with REW. REW does not increase the performance it only measures it.

That green line will guide me in improving our subwoofer system's performance. Because of that green line, I have both a clue that a problem exists and I know there are steps I can take to correct for the shortcomings the green line is revealing. I'm going beat that green line. That green line isn't telling our subwoofers how to act. But without that green line, I wouldn't know the subwoofers are acting up and I wouldn't know my room's acoustics are robbing our subwoofer system of performance and I wouldn't know to take steps to counter normal subwoofer behavior.

I love that green line. That green line represents a boat load of effort and tells me all my effort has been worth it. I hate that green line. That green line tells me I have a lot more work to do. tongue.gif

The last measured effort below, tells me I'm coming in for a soft landing and currently on final approach. Around 45Hz, I have a small (barely noticeable) null about 5dB deep that's about a third of an octave wide. It's hardly noticeable but it's there and when I can, I want it gone. Getting rid of only 3dB of the null, will double the power output of the null. And getting rid of at least five dB, that's noticable and that's a performance increase.



Without room measuring software, I have zero chance of improving the performance of our subwoofer system.

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post #6038 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The two combined graphs, empirically show the performance increase. REW doesn't improve output. REW is measuring software. The isolator improves the output. REW allows me to measure and compare the two outputs so I can empirically see the changes in output.

That purple valley equals one-half the output of the green line. The green line, above the purple valley, is approximately twice as loud to human hearing. And in a transient response, for measuring purposes, you won't notice the null. But corrected, yes, it makes a huge difference in how you perceive the overall sound quality.

I can't use a direct car analogy because the difference in a subwoofer's output is beyond a human's ability to guide the changes. Maybe if you will, it's like a smog sniffer, measuring ppm of CO output. You and I can't tell the difference between 90ppm and 110ppm but it makes a difference to the DMV and the overall air quality.

-

Right and I'm looking for an increase in output, not a fix for the flatness of the response. Which is why I upgraded to a Triax, because it will give me more output.

Just as Saturn94 said, he did not notice a night/day difference between using REW and not using it. I'm looking for a night/day difference in output and Tom said that the Triax will provide that.

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post #6039 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 12:33 PM
 
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Right and I'm looking for an increase in output, not a fix for the flatness of the response. Which is why I upgraded to a Triax, because it will give me more output.

Just as Saturn94 said, he did not notice a night/day difference between using REW and not using it. I'm looking for a night/day difference in output and Tom said that the Triax will provide that.

A flat graph, is a fix. Without room measuring software, nobody has a chance of correcting room acoustics. And as you can see from the posted information, without question, if one's graph isn't flat, a poorly integrated subwoofer, will rob the output and directly impact the overall output of any subwoofer system equally because it doesn't matter how powerful a subwoofer, poorly integrated, the owner is still being robbed of the subwoofer's performance capabilities.

I'm going drop out of this part of the conversation as it's your call if you want to harm the output of the Triax you have on order. I want you to get the best from your Triax, hence why I took the time to share. From here, it's your call what to do.

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post #6040 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 03:23 PM
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I remember having the same experience with my first high efficiency speaker purchase and Nirvana's Nevermind. I had heard the material on so many different systems that I never thought I'd be that taken "aback". I literally had to stop the first track a minute into it and double check the system to be sure I didn't have any kind of processing on(lexicon DC-1 front end back then). So much detail I never heard before. I've had a on/off(mostly on) love affair with high efficiency designs ever since.

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post #6041 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 03:53 PM
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We are anticipating the first batch of Triax drivers to ship today from Scott. Big props to him for making this happen in the time-frame involved. Bigger props to everyone on the pre-order list. The amount of patience and understanding involved has been extraordinary. It has been a very interesting ride, but one I'm happy to put behind us..smile.gif


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Great news!

Can't wait to get mine, I have been holding back on watching several new movies just so I can watch them with the Triax's!

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post #6042 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 05:45 PM
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Ok, question time! I'm reading all the back and forth about REW what is it's sole purpose? Is it used just to properly set up just your sub? Someone please explain this if you don't mind.
Thanks
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post #6043 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 05:50 PM
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Ok, question time! I'm reading all the back and forth about REW what is it's sole purpose? Is it used just to properly set up just your sub? Someone please explain this if you don't mind.
Thanks

It is used to somehow increase the output from a subwoofer, I guess it uses magic or something.

Apparently to get the output I wanted I could have just invested a few hundred into some measuring hardware and use REW instead of the $1400 I spent for the Triax upgrade rolleyes.gif
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post #6044 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:04 PM
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It is used to somehow increase the output from a subwoofer, I guess it uses magic or something.

Apparently to get the output I wanted I could have just invested a few hundred into some measuring hardware and use REW instead of the $1400 I spent for the Triax upgrade rolleyes.gif

WOW
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post #6045 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

It is used to somehow increase the output from a subwoofer, I guess it uses magic or something.

Apparently to get the output I wanted I could have just invested a few hundred into some measuring hardware and use REW instead of the $1400 I spent for the Triax upgrade rolleyes.gif

LOL!

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post #6046 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:15 PM
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Ok, question time! I'm reading all the back and forth about REW what is it's sole purpose? Is it used just to properly set up just your sub? Someone please explain this if you don't mind.
Thanks

Not just for setting up subs. Maybe this will help

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
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post #6047 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

It is used to somehow increase the output from a subwoofer, I guess it uses magic or something.

Apparently to get the output I wanted I could have just invested a few hundred into some measuring hardware and use REW instead of the $1400 I spent for the Triax upgrade rolleyes.gif

What's wrong with you? Even if you don't want to test your setup doesn't mean that there isn't any merit behind doing so. I respect your decision to do what you want, but don't try to make it seem like doing what you want is the way of all ways.

All you're talking about is output and wanting more of it, hence the reason for ordering the Triax. What you fail to understand (at least acknowledge you understand) is the fact that the perceived output can change drastically depending on where you place your woofer(s) OR your listening position.

It's why you read about this thing called the sub crawl. Even doing the sub crawl you might not have any idea if the 'great sounding' bass in a certain location is really great sounding bass or a peak in the freq. range that sounds good to you but might sound like complete unbalanced sh*t to others. Others who have trained ears from experience.

I'm not wanting to start even more of an argument here. But you've been on this rant, and others have been on this 'attack if you will' for several pages now. You need to understand there is a reason for a hundred dollar mic (calibrated mic at that - not hundreds in equipment as you keep stating) and free software. And there is a reason people seem to be what probably feels like attacking you.

As I said last time...... relax. It's OK if you want to just buy a system capable of more output. People here just want to help you make wise decisions. And sometimes they get carried away. It's very obvious you don't care to measure crap. People need to accept that and let you be. smile.gif

I sincerely hope the Triax knocks your socks off.\

FWIW I've swallowed my pride several times in just the subwoofer arena. I've admitted my wrongs, my stubbornness, and moved on. Moved on might I mention to a better subwoofer end result. wink.gif
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post #6048 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:27 PM
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What's wrong with you? Even if you don't want to test your setup doesn't mean that there isn't any merit behind doing so. I respect your decision to do what you want, but don't try to make it seem like doing what you want is the way of all ways.

All you're talking about is output and wanting more of it, hence the reason for ordering the Triax. What you fail to understand (at least acknowledge you understand) is the fact that the perceived output can change drastically depending on where you place your woofer(s) OR your listening position.

It's why you read about this thing called the sub crawl. Even doing the sub crawl you might not have any idea if the 'great sounding' bass in a certain location is really great sounding bass or a peak in the freq. range that sounds good to you but might sound like complete unbalanced sh*t to others. Others who have trained ears from experience.

I'm not wanting to start even more of an argument here. But you've been on this rant, and others have been on this 'attack if you will' for several pages now. You need to understand there is a reason for a hundred dollar mic (calibrated mic at that) and free software. And there is a reason people seem to be what probably feels like attacking you.

As I said last time...... relax. It's OK if you want to just buy a system capable of more output. People here just want to help you make wise decisions. And sometimes they get carried away. It's very obvious you don't care to measure crap. People need to accept that and let you be. smile.gif

I sincerely hope the Triax knocks your socks off.

Oh no worries, I certainly don't feel like anybody is attacking me and even if they did I am a big boy and can fend for myself. I am merely trying to drill it into some thick skulls around here that some people just want pure output and have no interest in diving down into miniscule details. Hell, maybe I'll even order another 3-4 Triaxes just to piss them off even more.

Also if you check this post: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1372020/official-power-sound-audio-thread/6000#post_23777840 - I'm pretty sure my first paragraph acknowledges the benefits to using REW for those interested

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post #6049 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:32 PM
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Oh no worries, I certainly don't feel like anybody is attacking me and even if they did I am a big boy and can fend for myself. I am merely trying to drill it into some thick skulls around here that some people just want pure output and have no interest in diving down into miniscule details. Hell, maybe I'll even order another 3-4 Triaxes just to piss them off even more.

Also if you check this post: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1372020/official-power-sound-audio-thread/6000#post_23777840 - I'm pretty sure my first paragraph acknowledges the benefits to using REW for those interested

RIght on brother....


But why do you want to piss people off?

Thick skulls here???? No way!! eek.gif Haha.......

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post #6050 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

It is used to somehow increase the output from a subwoofer, I guess it uses magic or something.

Apparently to get the output I wanted I could have just invested a few hundred into some measuring hardware and use REW instead of the $1400 I spent for the Triax upgrade rolleyes.gif
What a pitifully uninformed response. And I mean that not only about your above post, but also about your future frequency response with your new Triax sub. It is truly a shame you won't be able to maximize it's potential because you will be so pitifully uninformed about how it interacts with your room.



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post #6051 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:36 PM
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^^^ Craig helped me tons when I really needed the help. He's a knowledgeable dude. Not a guy out to brag about what he knows, or attack people. smile.gif

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post #6052 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:42 PM
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Sorry PDDUFRENE, you should look at the link Saturn94 sent you. I'm in no way saying that it isn't useful to use REW, just something that I'm not interested in smile.gif

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post #6053 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

What a pitifully uninformed response. And I mean that not only about your above post, but also about your future frequency response with your new Triax sub. It is truly a shame you won't be able to maximize it's potential because you will be so pitifully uninformed about how it interacts with your room.



Craig

If jarretc really enjoys his Triax, I see no shame in it just because he doesn't wish to dive into the rabbit hole of measuring and tweaking.

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post #6054 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:45 PM
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^^^ Craig helped me tons when I really needed the help. He's a knowledgeable dude. Not a guy out to brag about what he knows, or attack people. smile.gif

But his post reads like an attack.....perhaps unintentionally.

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post #6055 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:49 PM
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But his post reads like an attack.....perhaps unintentionally.

Very true...... thanks for pointing that out.

I just feel a bit different about certain peoples responses based on the actual help I've received myself. That doesn't translate into anything for anyone but me.

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post #6056 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 06:54 PM
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Very true...... thanks for pointing that out.

I just feel a bit different about certain peoples responses based on the actual help I've received myself. That doesn't translate into anything for anyone but me.

I completely understand what you mean. My history with someone, if any, can certainly impact how I interpret their posts. smile.gif

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post #6057 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 07:00 PM
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If jarretc really enjoys his Triax, I see no shame in it just because he doesn't wish to dive into the rabbit hole of measuring and tweaking.
You can lead a horse to water...

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #6058 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 07:05 PM
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You can lead a horse to water...

Do you realize how condescending your posts come across?

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post #6059 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 07:12 PM
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Do you realize how condescending your posts come across?

EDIT --- too much argue - not enough enjoyment of brains being rattled by ridiculous bass. I'm out people. Have a good Friday night. Wake up - and rock the house!
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post #6060 of 13513 Old 09-27-2013, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Do you realize how condescending your posts come across?
No, I guess I don't. If they come across as condescending, well.. they are what they are. I don't intend them to be condescending. I intend them to be informative and helpful.

I used the term "uninformed" because, clearly, anyone who doesn't see a benefit in measuring the in-room response of their subwoofer is uninformed. That is so blatantly obvious to me that I find it incomprehensible that someone could perceive in-room measurements to be nothing more than "magic."

I used the term "pitifully" because I pity, (feel sorry for), someone who doesn't understand the value of measuring the in-room response of a subwoofer they have spent a small fortune for. To sped $3K+ on a single subwoofer and expect to be able to drop it into a room at the spot it *looks* the best... and expect "magic"... is naive at best.

If that is condescending to you... well, that's your problem.

Craig
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