Official Power Sound Audio Thread - Page 397 - AVS Forum
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post #11881 of 12751 Old 05-31-2014, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Ok guys sorry about that still a noob with this software but thanks for the tips, I think I fixed it all good as far as axis goes. I could not turn off my mains in mcacc, even though i could turn every other speaker off. I did not want to unhook them because they were all setup to one and done leave it alone once everything is in place and it would just be an absolute bear to unhook and hook back up. So I turned the mains down as far as they would go which was pretty low. For the main measurement, i set the volume as they were normally and turned the sub off like you said.

I also figured out that my main towers(Infinity Beta 50's) when set to large are flat down to 30hz which I thought was pretty impressive just for curiosity sake.


I just realized that it's in 10db increments but in REW it shows 5db increments.

Here it is in 5db:

This is a perfect example of why REW is such an important tool. Had you used this when you had the LV12, you migbt not of changed subs. The best sub in the world will sound lacking with a null like that. When you get rid of that null, that xs30 is really going to shine. smile.gif

For kicks you might try a sub crawl, place the sub where it sounds best, measure with REW, and hopefully you can leave the sub in that location. Another option is to move the listening position. Your response below 60hz looks awesome, so get that null fixed and you will be dialed.
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post #11882 of 12751 Old 05-31-2014, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

You really need to do 1 sub at a time (out to 100hz at least). Then both subs combined(out to 100hz). Keep the input level the same so we can see the acoustical summation of the duals.


After that, you can do the mains + subs, or the center +subs.

Which receiver are you using?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I'm only using the XS30se. I have the Pioneer 1222k.

Unfortunately I have no room to move my sub OR MLP frown.gif The only thing I could do is maybe move the sub off the the front wall, where one of the drivers is 2" away from, another inch. Does this sound promising in helping that huge null?

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post #11883 of 12751 Old 05-31-2014, 09:09 AM
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Check the polarity on your mains. (actually just rotate the phase control on the sub completely and try the sub again against the LEFT and then the RIGHT speaker)


If that checks out, try measuring the left by itself and then the right.

Also, try one of your "pro logic" modes too. That may combine the L/R tones and redirect them to the center. This will allow you an easy way to do a center channel + sub graph.

Tom V.
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post #11884 of 12751 Old 05-31-2014, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

REW download from Hometheatershack.com

Umik-1 mic from miniDSP calibrated to 10 Hz

or

Umik-1 from Cross Specturm calibrated to 5 Hz

MiniDSP from miniDSP so you can manually eq if desired after measuring

Advanced 2.1 plugin from miniDSP

Determine where you will locate the miniDSP, where you would like to be with your laptop while measuring, and buy the following cables of appropriate length:

HDMI that will reach from laptop to AVR

USB to miniUSB cable from laptop to miniDSP

USB to miniUSB from laptop to Umik-1 mic if supplied 8 ft(?) cable is not long enough.


Cell phone charger type power supply for miniDSP once it is not hooked up to your computer(miniUSB)

thanks.

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post #11885 of 12751 Old 05-31-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post

thanks.


bear123 ordered Umik-1 from Cross Specturm .... that should get me started.

thanks-

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post #11886 of 12751 Old 05-31-2014, 01:52 PM
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That's cool. Since u are sealed that will show you response to below 10

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post #11887 of 12751 Old 05-31-2014, 07:39 PM
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Guys, I had a thought about getting the other two XV15SEs and wanted to get your input on this thought, how about getting a single XV30FSE to put behind the MLP about 8-10' away. The back of my room (the wall) has right in the center of it a corner type wall and then an opening into another small area, I was thinking I could put a XV30F right there and being there is a small dividing wall as I mentioned and the 30 being front firing I should get plenty of output from the rear behind the MLP, what do you think or just get the other two XV15SEs. I'm open to all suggestions, I need to decide soon. TIA
Cheers Jeff

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post #11888 of 12751 Old 05-31-2014, 08:37 PM
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Ahblaza iam in the same boat as u. Let me know wat u decide
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post #11889 of 12751 Old 05-31-2014, 08:41 PM
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I wonder if there is any draw backs to have the front firing xv30fse located directly behind u and up against the sofa. Any thoughts?
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post #11890 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Guys, I had a thought about getting the other two XV15SEs and wanted to get your input on this thought, how about getting a single XV30FSE to put behind the MLP about 8-10' away. The back of my room (the wall) has right in the center of it a corner type wall and then an opening into another small area, I was thinking I could put a XV30F right there and being there is a small dividing wall as I mentioned and the 30 being front firing I should get plenty of output from the rear behind the MLP, what do you think or just get the other two XV15SEs. I'm open to all suggestions, I need to decide soon. TIA
Cheers Jeff


what subs
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Guys, I had a thought about getting the other two XV15SEs and wanted to get your input on this thought, how about getting a single XV30FSE to put behind the MLP about 8-10' away. The back of my room (the wall) has right in the center of it a corner type wall and then an opening into another small area, I was thinking I could put a XV30F right there and being there is a small dividing wall as I mentioned and the 30 being front firing I should get plenty of output from the rear behind the MLP, what do you think or just get the other two XV15SEs. I'm open to all suggestions, I need to decide soon. TIA
Cheers Jeff


you have dual XV15's now.? whats your room size??

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post #11891 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 06:47 AM
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This will provide incredible tactile kick if you sit right in front of it.  Do it!  Get four of them !!:D


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #11892 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 07:50 AM
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Roughly 15 wide 25 long i have dual xv15 now
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post #11893 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 07:54 AM
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[IMG]http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/441694/width/200/height/ Older pic of my room my xv15 are located where my rw are
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post #11894 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 08:07 AM
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post #11895 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 08:25 AM
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Sorry for the late reply, my weekends are usually tied up with the kids.

I definitely think the se version makes an improvement for the XS30, the question is how much of an improvement, whether it is big enough for you to spend $500. Another way to look at it is, for another $400 you actually get a new XS15se which will definitely make a difference. I can tell qualitatively it is a big improvement in the first few days. On Friday morning I packed the dual XS30 and about 5 hrs later I had set up the new se versions at the same spots as before and turned them on. I immediately noticed a difference. Adding a third sub which I previously did not have made the difference quite perceptible.

In a week or two I should have some quantitative plots to highlight the differences for similar set-up, it hope it helps you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post

oh boy. should i update my 30's.... lol

keep us/me posted!

wife walked in the LR spend 5 min and left. she did not notice. lol

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post #11896 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 08:29 AM
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Thank you Bear. My plan is to have the third sub somewhere in the near-field. To make the new addition less of an impact to wifey, I placed it right below the TV. I will wait until the dust of the new subs settle down and then try few placement options, I do not have too many options as it is. Wifey did not notice the third addition immediately, it took her about 2 hrs before she realized there is a third one at which point I started giving some strange explanations which did not make sense to me either but she gave up half way through my reasoning smile.gif

I am also little concerned about the kids and their wandering hands if the subs (and the dials) are within their easy reach. I may first need to train to my 10 month old not to touch daddy's speakers.
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Congrats on the upgrades and the addition of the third sub.  Do you plan on putting one on the other side of the room.....near field?  Should help with smoothing a lot.

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post #11897 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 08:31 AM
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Thanks Mike, for now I am letting them play with the day-to-day usage for the weekend. I am thinking whether it may help if I play something through the day for couple of days while I am at work, turn off my Amp so the speakers don't shout but let the subs rumble at lower volume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

Just wait until you get about 7 days on them, they are a BEAST!!!!!!!!

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post #11898 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 08:33 AM
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Yep, those are KEF Q900's and Q600c for the center, like them so far smile.gif It is a pity that the subs work for the Q900 are getting replaced by the XS30se's since they have a decent bass by themselves.
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

Congrats! Are those KEF towers?

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post #11899 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 08:35 AM
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The setup looks nice and cozy smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post


Fronts: KEF Q900's, KEF 600c, Rear: Mirage OMD-15's, SW: PSA triple XS30se+miniDSP
AVR: Denon 3313CI, Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
Sources: HTPC (Jriver Media Center), Logitech Squeezebox Touch, PS3, Xbox 360,
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Unraid Server with 30TB+
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post #11900 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 08:41 AM
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Tom - That is interesting. I didn't know what the dolby pro logic mode actually did. Couple of questions on the AVR modes -

1. On my AVR Denon 3313CI, I like the multi-channel out option where each of the speakers have a stereo imaging effect and sounds great for music (I have four towers, 2 KEF Q900 and 2 Mirage OMD-15). The only part that I currently do not like is, the subs seem to get cut-off/down with this mode. Any suggestion on how to bring back the subs into mix with this mode?

2. what actually does the dynamic EQ mode on the AVR do? I think it boosts up the sub vol artificially at lower volumes, right? I currently have it turned off but I am thinking it may be good for regular cable watching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Check the polarity on your mains. (actually just rotate the phase control on the sub completely and try the sub again against the LEFT and then the RIGHT speaker)


If that checks out, try measuring the left by itself and then the right.

Also, try one of your "pro logic" modes too. That may combine the L/R tones and redirect them to the center. This will allow you an easy way to do a center channel + sub graph.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Fronts: KEF Q900's, KEF 600c, Rear: Mirage OMD-15's, SW: PSA triple XS30se+miniDSP
AVR: Denon 3313CI, Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
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post #11901 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

Sorry for the late reply, my weekends are usually tied up with the kids.

I definitely think the se version makes an improvement for the XS30, the question is how much of an improvement, whether it is big enough for you to spend $500. Another way to look at it is, for another $400 you actually get a new XS15se which will definitely make a difference. I can tell qualitatively it is a big improvement in the first few days. On Friday morning I packed the dual XS30 and about 5 hrs later I had set up the new se versions at the same spots as before and turned them on. I immediately noticed a difference. Adding a third sub which I previously did not have made the difference quite perceptible.

In a week or two I should have some quantitative plots to highlight the differences for similar set-up, it hope it helps you.


Thanks. having just added two XS15se I believe my LR and wife have more bass then it can handle. lol as far as I can tell (my ears) two XS15se's would probably be enough for most. I know the dual XS15's added to the XS30's adds quite a bit of headroom. or what i think is headroom?.

on reference it seems to go either go so low or so loud that the bass allmost disapears into another frequency where it sounds different to the ear and your body starts to feel it more...... hard to explain.

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post #11902 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 10:45 AM
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Ok guys I feel I have spent enough time listening to different source content to give a good opinion on the XV15 vs XV15se...

First off the XV15se is a significant improvement with music...the sub seems more controlled and accurate during transients. Playing different types of music from rock, jazz, electronic, and rap, the SE is on another level. Just clean articulate and powerful.

That being said I feel the original XV15 is better with ULF content in movies. I can tell after viewing several flicks the original XV15 definitely digs much lower with authority. PSA clamped the output on the SE heavily starting around 25hz. I have a hard time believing the XV15se is anywhere near capable of 108db @ 20hz 2m rms. I may be wrong, or something might be up with my measuring gear, but I am pretty sure everything is spot on in that department. This is my data to show what I am talking about.

Ok so I tried simulating the exact same setup and conditions when I did a max spl graph of Dual XV15's a year ago. No eq, No phase adjustments, No off setting levels on one sub...just everything level matched, Ypao disabled, 80hz crossover, Sub only.

Here is the graph I just took today. This is basically max output before compression starts between dual XV15se & tri XV15se:



As you can see the third XV15 is doing a much better job lifting the lowend with around a 8db increase around 20hz. At the room modal peak of 32hz they are identical, but on average I am netting a 3-4db gain and a smoother response. Now I can obviously tweak some things to get the graph even flatter by bumping up the gain on the 3rd sub, that knocks the peak clear down, but I am trying to do a apples to apples comparison here...so no tricks. smile.gif

Here is the graph I took a year ago of Dual XV15. This is max output allowing compression to run wild. Not exactly the same criteria as above but I feel we should be able to make a good generalization here.



You can see it is clear Dual XV15 is severely outperforming my 3 XV15se from 30hz and below(from a output standpoint)...dual XV15se vs XV15se is not even on the same planet below 20hz. When I had just the 3 XV15's before the upgrade, I was reference capable down to 15hz, now I am not even close. However if we limit THD to 10%, the SE wins everywhere.


In the end the SE is solid upgrade in sound quality and accuracy. They definitely have cleaner output everywhere, with less THD at the levels measured above. I do notice that the SE have no coloration to the bass, just clean output, but at the sacrifice of low end output. Do I feel it was worth the cost to upgrade, meh I am still on the fence. The reason being I thought the old driver sounded fine and I find myself enjoying movies more then music these days which is the exact opposite from a year ago. Not saying the SE is not good with movies, but I do notice less below 20hz during certain parts of movies. Is it a deal breaker, no not for me, but it may be for some.

In short, If you are strictly a movie buff, then keep the old drivers, but if you primarily listen to music with occasional movie time, go with the SE. While I feel the SE is a upgrade, you are giving at one end to gain everywhere else.
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post #11903 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 10:55 AM
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^^ very good report.
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post #11904 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 10:58 AM
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basshead81 thanks for an Honest review......

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post #11905 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 11:04 AM
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basshead: Although I don't have the XV15, I do have the XS30, so I suspect the same plus and minus aspects could be attributed to the dual-opposing drivers. I have very little complaints about my XS30, especially for movies. It's a surprising powerhouse. My only reservation was its capability with music. While good to very good with a lot of my music, it is not quite what I wanted for all of my music. Then again, I'm far more anal about music than movie LFE.

I love the idea that the "se" series has tightened up and cleaned the sub's response and has lower distortion. As you mentioned, this bodes well for music, but perhaps not as well for movie LFE. And thanks for taking the time to describe your experience. However, no one knows how a longer break-in period would modify your findings. I think it would be a good idea to revisit this a month or two down the road.
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post #11906 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

PSA clamped the output on the SE heavily starting around 25hz. I have a hard time believing the XV15se is anywhere near capable of 108db @ 20hz 2m rms. I may be wrong, or something might be up with my measuring gear, but I am pretty sure everything is spot on in that department. This is my data to show what I am talking about.

Ok so I tried simulating the exact same setup and conditions when I did a max spl graph of Dual XV15's a year ago. No eq, No phase adjustments, No off setting levels on one sub...just everything level matched, Ypao disabled, 80hz crossover, Sub only.

You can see it is clear Dual XV15 is severely outperforming my 3 XV15se from 30hz and below(from a output standpoint)...dual XV15se vs XV15se is not even on the same planet below 20hz. When I had just the 3 XV15's before the upgrade, I was reference capable down to 15hz, now I am not even close. However if we limit THD to 10%, the SE wins everywhere.


Hi basshead, I shorted things a bit to try to address a couple of points.

How are you measuring THD?

1)Trying to compare data sets from a year ago is difficult. With different setting it might be impossible. I would be careful not to make too many assumptions there.
2)Trying to determine the CEA-2010 output capabilities based off an in room compression sweep would alos be very difficult. I'm not sure how you would try to correlate that into a CEA-2010 burst outside? In any event we are confident in our measurement equipment and our CEA-2010 data. We will likely be measuring different subwoofers/speakers almost weekly. Your free to stop by this summer some time and join in(bring your test rig). I guarantee you it would be a lot of fun..smile.gif
3)dual XV15 will not out perform dual XV15se in any performance metric except possibly how each model interacts with a specific room transfer function which will mainly show up <20hz. I know what a PIA it can be but if you could take the subs outside for measurements that would be best. As they say, in room....you are just measuring the room for the most part.
4) if you are showing a 7-8dB drop in max output (during compression sweep)between (2)XV15s and (3) XV15se (with the 2 XV15 being the higher) you either have major inaccuracies in the test setup, unaccounted for variable(s), or something else is seriously amiss. The SE versions maintain *more* linearity in compression sweep. There are gremlins at work..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #11907 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 01:57 PM
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Hi Tom,

I am not disagreeing with your cea-2010 data. If I came across that way my apologies, but from what testing I have done(I will admit it may be primative), the old drivers are out performing the new drivers in peak all out ouput from 15-20hz. I ran my distortion tests using RTA analysis inside of REW. The SE model is
much cleaner from what I have seen no doubt. I am confident that Ricci testing will reveal PSA's to be accurate, but in my room for whatever reason, I doubt a single XV15se will do 108db @ 20hz.

Actually I will do a test of just 1 XV vs 2 & 3 and post the graph.

Again my goal here is not to be biased...I am just posting what I have seen over the last 3-4weeks with the new drivers. I like what I am hearing but I am not sure I like the steep roll off. I believe in a few emails we exchanged you even said the original driver would have more output with source content in the 10-20hz range. Well my graphs are showing that to the T. Like I said my graph of dual XV15's was absolute max spl, fully compressing. The graph I did today of dual & tri SE were taken only to the point where compression started. So yea I am sure there is more output left. I still do not think 3 XV15se will match the output of dual XV15 around 16hz. Trust me I want to be proven wrong here smile.gif
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post #11908 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 02:46 PM
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Sorry to change the subject but how are the cabinet vibrations with the xv15se? I want to place a speaker on top.....should I be worried?


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post #11909 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dimetera413 View Post

Sorry to change the subject but how are the cabinet vibrations with the xv15se? I want to place a speaker on top.....should I be worried?


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No issue...I watched pompeii @ -2 lastnight and nothing vibrated off the top. I use them as end tables, so they have various things sitting on top of them. smile.gif
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post #11910 of 12751 Old 06-01-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

basshead: Although I don't have the XV15, I do have the XS30, so I suspect the same plus and minus aspects could be attributed to the dual-opposing drivers. I have very little complaints about my XS30, especially for movies. It's a surprising powerhouse. My only reservation was its capability with music. While good to very good with a lot of my music, it is not quite what I wanted for all of my music. Then again, I'm far more anal about music than movie LFE.

I love the idea that the "se" series has tightened up and cleaned the sub's response and has lower distortion. As you mentioned, this bodes well for music, but perhaps not as well for movie LFE. And thanks for taking the time to describe your experience. However, no one knows how a longer break-in period would modify your findings. I think it would be a good idea to revisit this a month or two down the road.

Good point Dsrussell, I will take new measurements in a month and post my findings. The next go around I will do a max spl sweep up to the point where the subs will not increase in output. I will measure starting with 1 sub and show the changes by adding a second and third.

Also another thing to note, on the Pulse server scene I am showing a 5-7db increase with the new SE drivers using my spl meter, which I posted a few pages back. With 3 XV15's I recorded 107-108db (uncorrected) peaks on the server scene and 112-114db(uncorrected) peaks with the SE upgrades. So the more I think about it, this conflicts with my data I previously posted. Perhaps I was not pushing the new drivers close to thier limits yet? I would think REW measurements would be a more accurate analysis of performance. Although I have have to keep in mind that I am using a 80.00 umm-6 mic, it would be nice to have a spec labs setup then I would feel a bit better about my findings. I am almost wondering if there is some inaccuracy going on at higher levels with this type of measuring mic.

Of course 3rd party testing is going to reveal the real results but I figured I would attempt to post my report of what I have found in the mean time.
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