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post #11911 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Hi Tom,

I am not disagreeing with your cea-2010 data. If I came across that way my apologies, but from what testing I have done(I will admit it may be primative), the old drivers are out performing the new drivers in peak all out ouput from 15-20hz. I ran my distortion tests using RTA analysis inside of REW. The SE model is
much cleaner from what I have seen no doubt. I am confident that Ricci testing will reveal PSA's to be accurate, but in my room for whatever reason, I doubt a single XV15se will do 108db @ 20hz.

Actually I will do a test of just 1 XV vs 2 & 3 and post the graph.

Again my goal here is not to be biased...I am just posting what I have seen over the last 3-4weeks with the new drivers. I like what I am hearing but I am not sure I like the steep roll off. I believe in a few emails we exchanged you even said the original driver would have more output with source content in the 10-20hz range. Well my graphs are showing that to the T. Like I said my graph of dual XV15's was absolute max spl, fully compressing. The graph I did today of dual & tri SE were taken only to the point where compression started. So yea I am sure there is more output left. I still do not think 3 XV15se will match the output of dual XV15 around 16hz. Trust me I want to be proven wrong here smile.gif

Hi Bass,

When you say "output in the 10-20hz range" are you referring to the measured FR in your room or the clean output capabilities per CEA-2010? In your room, the two versions could be close...as I said....we're measuring the room as much as the sub(s). But if we take the room out of the equation the SE versions have a decided advantage in the 16hz-32hz range. Something around 2dB on average iirc.

Please don't take this the wrong way as I really like seeing *all* the data I can. Whenever Josh posts something new I feel like its Christmas. Doesn't matter if it is a little $200 cube, a $10,000 unit or anything in between..smile.gif But I spent *years* trying to find a way to take repeatable, in room THD. There's just too much going on in room. There has been one professional review that I can remember that ever found repeat-ability in room----Tom Nousaine. And don't ask him how much his test rig cost..smile.gif And with regards to measurement rig setup and all the variables here....we have spent an entire DAY troubleshooting gremlins in the system after setting up outside. And I mean literally 6 to 8 hours. And these problems would often never be apparent if we didn't have a "control" device/product to measure. There's so much that can change from yesterday to today in terms of mic calibration, sound card settings, preamp stuff, gain structure, software setting, etc, etc....it is almost endless. Jim and I probably have 3000(?) hours outside now and another 1000-2000 inside. We have very high resolution gear and mics. And the first thing we do after setting up for a round of measurements? We measure a "control" sample. Something we have on hand that we have measured dozens if not hundreds of times. And we do this even if we spent all day yesterday measuring. So for someone to say here is in room data from a year ago with around the same settings(maybe?). There are just so many potential variables its tough to make any conclusion imo.

I don't have much/any experience with rew or other shareware programs so its tough to make specific recommendations. But I can say if you are finding worse performance from the SE driver in any measurement metric being discussed here (except how the FR relates to each specific room transfer)....there is something wrong. The measurement are wrong, your settings are off, or your SE products are non performing the way they should be. My advice would be to try to separate FR, compression and THD data collection. They are really three different things. If you trying to do (sigh) in room thd and compare it to outside GP burst data....at the very least use the same test tones..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #11912 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Good point Dsrussell, I will take new measurements in a month and post my findings. The next go around I will do a max spl sweep up to the point where the subs will not increase in output. I will measure starting with 1 sub and show the changes by adding a second and third.

Also another thing to note, on the Pulse server scene I am showing a 5-7db increase with the new SE drivers using my spl meter, which I posted a few pages back. With 3 XV15's I recorded 107-108db (uncorrected) peaks on the server scene and 112-114db(uncorrected) peaks with the SE upgrades. So the more I think about it, this conflicts with my data I previously posted. Perhaps I was not pushing the new drivers close to thier limits yet? I would think REW measurements would be a more accurate analysis of performance. Although I have have to keep in mind that I am using a 80.00 umm-6 mic, it would be nice to have a spec labs setup then I would feel a bit better about my findings. I am almost wondering if there is some inaccuracy going on at higher levels with this type of measuring mic.

Of course 3rd party testing is going to reveal the real results but I figured I would attempt to post my report of what I have found in the mean time.

Hi Bass,

I think the key here is to separate FR, compression, and "max output capabilities", into 3 distinct metrics. Also, remember that you can run compression checks and see a certain range "compress" while other areas of the operational bandwidth still have a ways to go. This is especially true in room with all the possible modes/nulls.

Seriously, how far are you from us like 6-8 hours? Maybe I can talk Jim into a big BBQ at the shop type of thing later this summer. You can show me some tips on rew inroom, Jim can setup outside, and we can have bear123 at the grill..smile.gif

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post #11913 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 05:05 PM
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basshead: Interesting difference from the Pulse scene with dB measurements to today's measurements with REW. And while everyone is highly interested in Ricci's testing, I think real-world in-home testing is a good metric, even though rooms will vary wildly. I want to thank you for all the effort you have put into this. I know there is a lot more fun things that you could be doing, so I just wanted to tell you that your efforts are appreciated.
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post #11914 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi Bass,

I think the key here is to separate FR, compression, and "max output capabilities", into 3 distinct metrics. Also, remember that you can run compression checks and see a certain range "compress" while other areas of the operational bandwidth still have a ways to go. This is especially true in room with all the possible modes/nulls.

Seriously, how far are you from us like 6-8 hours? Maybe I can talk Jim into a big BBQ at the shop type of thing later this summer. You can show me some tips on rew inroom, Jim can setup outside, and we can have bear123 at the grill..smile.gif

Tom V.
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Good point! I think the issue may be is my dual XV15 graph from a year ago was max spl and the one I took today was only up to the point where compression started. that could be leaving quite a bit on the table.

for example here is the base response and max spl from 1 year ago of dual XV15's.





Here is a graph from today of a reference level sweep(MV -0), then I added +5 to the subs, then another +3 for a total of 8db hot. Looks to me compression is starting so I did not think much more headroom was available around 20hz?
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post #11915 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 05:19 PM
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Oh and yes a barbecue would be cool. I am about 4hrs away.
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post #11916 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

basshead: Interesting difference from the Pulse scene with dB measurements to today's measurements with REW. And while everyone is highly interested in Ricci's testing, I think real-world in-home testing is a good metric, even though rooms will vary wildly. I want to thank you for all the effort you have put into this. I know there is a lot more fun things that you could be doing, so I just wanted to tell you that your efforts are appreciated.

It is my pleasure!! I was going to do a few other measurements and post them but my wife's car broke down about 45min out of town so I had to cut the testing session short and take care of that situation. I kind of enjoy using REW. I really want to use this powerful too a lot more then I get to, but life just does not allow it. I am sure it is the same for others. Anywho I do plan on doing some further testing and will report back. smile.gif
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post #11917 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 05:37 PM
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Ok so I DERP'D big time. I just went back thru and checked all my subs gain settings. the gain on the third sub mid wall was set 2 notches above my other 2 subs. Evidently I must of bumped the gain when moving the sub. So what you are seeing above is that sub reaching its limits before the other 2. My apologies folks...geez. I will go start over and report back. redface.gif
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post #11918 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post


I spent *years* trying to find a way to take repeatable, in room THD. There's just too much going on in room. There has been one professional review that I can remember that ever found repeat-ability in room----Tom Nousaine. And don't ask him how much his test rig cost..smile.gif And with regards to measurement rig setup and all the variables here....we have spent an entire DAY troubleshooting gremlins in the system after setting up outside. And I mean literally 6 to 8 hours. And these problems would often never be apparent if we didn't have a "control" device/product to measure. There's so much that can change from yesterday to today in terms of mic calibration, sound card settings, preamp stuff, gain structure, software setting, etc, etc....it is almost endless. Jim and I probably have 3000(?) hours outside now and another 1000-2000 inside. We have very high resolution gear and mics. And the first thing we do after setting up for a round of measurements? We measure a "control" sample. Something we have on hand that we have measured dozens if not hundreds of times. And we do this even if we spent all day yesterday measuring. So for someone to say here is in room data from a year ago with around the same settings(maybe?). There are just so many potential variables its tough to make any conclusion imo.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

+1,000

BTW I am taking in room CEA-2010 data from all of the commercial subs now. I think I started with the original XV15. They are buried in the static graphs section at DB. Even with everything as standardized as possible each sub reacts a bit differently in room. Some seem to be a little less or more affected by nulls and standing waves at the listening position, or see more or less gain in the deep bass. Also since CEA-2010 limits are based on distortion thresholds and those limits may be defined by different harmonic makeup for each sub and the room acoustics have the effect of "equalizing" the output of the subwoofer including its harmonic distortion, the CEA-2010 or distortion limited output measured in one room is not directly translatable to other rooms or even outdoors.
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post #11919 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Ok so I DERP'D big time. I just went back thru and checked all my subs gain settings. the gain on the third sub mid wall was set 2 notches above my other 2 subs. Evidently I must of bumped the gain when moving the sub. So what you are seeing above is that sub reaching its limits before the other 2. My apologies folks...geez. I will go start over and report back. redface.gif


Mistakes happen my friend, good of Tom to chime in so you find your mishap, and thanks again for all that you do, keep it up.
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post #11920 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post

what subs
you have dual XV15's now.? whats your room size??


Yes I have dual XV15SEs now and I'm going to be either adding two more or going with the XV30FSE. My room is 14' W X 27 L X 8' H, I was planning on putting the XV30F about 8' behind the MLP which would be fairly close to the back wall. If I go with the two more XV15s they would be behind the MLP to the right and left of MLP about 6-8' away. I'm really leaning towards the XV30F. What do you think.
Tom you could chime in as well.
Cheers Jeff

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post #11921 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 07:01 PM
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Yes I have dual XV15SEs now and I'm going to be either adding two more or going with the XV30FSE. My room is 14' W X 27 L X 8' H, I was planning on putting the XV30F about 8' behind the MLP which would be fairly close to the back wall. If I go with the two more XV15s they would be behind the MLP to the right and left of MLP about 6-8' away. I'm really leaning towards the XV30F. What do you think.
Tom you could chime in as well.
Cheers Jeff

Id probably stick with the added XV15se.... 4 would be killer. that said. Tom V or other members here would know more then I...... i was ready to drop another $$$$ on a pair of XS30se to go with my dual XS30'S. bass bear and TomV suggested a pair of XS15se at a nice savings..... turns out. they were right.... iv'e got the perfect amount of subs and the 15's are small enough to hide.

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post #11922 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 07:21 PM
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Id probably stick with the added XV15se.... 4 would be killer. that said. Tom V or other members here would know more then I...... i was ready to drop another $$$$ on a pair of XS30se to go with my dual XS30'S. bass bear and TomV suggested a pair of XS15se at a nice savings..... turns out. they were right.... iv'e got the perfect amount of subs and the 15's are small enough to hide.

Well I just got an email from my good friend Jim at PSA and he totally agrees with you in sticking with the original plan of adding two more XV15SEs. He said almost the same thing you did, four subs would be ideal;) Thanks Merc, appreciate your input.smile.gif
Cheers Jeff

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post #11923 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 07:46 PM
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I switched from dual XS30 to triple XS30se last Friday. I did some quick checks for the triples with the first two positions same as the xs30 versions. The REW response I got from the new duals were very similar to the non-se versions extending down to 10 Hz.These measurements were done at around 75 dB and do not know what the difference will be at higher levels. In a week or two I am hopeful of having some measurements where I can compare these them back to back. One thing I can say is that the new se versions sound 'tighter' and cleaner. Maybe look at the spectrogram and higher harmonics could give an indication of the more subtle differences?
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

basshead: Although I don't have the XV15, I do have the XS30, so I suspect the same plus and minus aspects could be attributed to the dual-opposing drivers. I have very little complaints about my XS30, especially for movies. It's a surprising powerhouse. My only reservation was its capability with music. While good to very good with a lot of my music, it is not quite what I wanted for all of my music. Then again, I'm far more anal about music than movie LFE.

I love the idea that the "se" series has tightened up and cleaned the sub's response and has lower distortion. As you mentioned, this bodes well for music, but perhaps not as well for movie LFE. And thanks for taking the time to describe your experience. However, no one knows how a longer break-in period would modify your findings. I think it would be a good idea to revisit this a month or two down the road.

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post #11924 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 07:57 PM
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Well I just got an email from my good friend Jim at PSA and he totally agrees with you in sticking with the original plan of adding two more XV15SEs. He said almost the same thing you did, four subs would be ideal;) Thanks Merc, appreciate your input.smile.gif
Cheers Jeff

Oh yea I would do 4 also...just make sure they are level matched and the gains do not get bumped when you move them. rolleyes.gif

It would be nice if gain controls clicked for each adjustment so they do not move easily. Come to find out when I turned the sub and pushed it back towards the wall, the LFE cable pushed up against it and moved the gain lol.

I will say there is much more involved with setting up multiples. It is very easy to make a simple mistake as I did, but thanks to Tom he got me sctratching my head. However that is why I like posting graphs and sharing information....hopefully more PSA owners will do the same here in the near future and we can all learn some things. smile.gif
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post #11925 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

I switched from dual XS30 to triple XS30se last Friday. I did some quick checks for the triples with the first two positions same as the xs30 versions. The REW response I got from the new duals were very similar to the non-se versions extending down to 10 Hz.These measurements were done at around 75 dB and do not know what the difference will be at higher levels. In a week or two I am hopeful of having some measurements where I can compare these them back to back. One thing I can say is that the new se versions sound 'tighter' and cleaner. Maybe look at the spectrogram and higher harmonics could give an indication of the more subtle differences?

Wow! I simply can't imagine 3 XS30se's. I have one XS30 and it shakes the walls silly.

That is some impressive in-room response you're getting, flydeep. Glad to hear that the new versions have tightened up and many have immediately noticed that. Not saying the older versions are somehow inadequate, because I'm highly impressed by my PSA for movie LFE. I have a feeling I might be impressed with the new version's musical capability. Thanks for sharing.
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post #11926 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi Bass,

I think the key here is to separate FR, compression, and "max output capabilities", into 3 distinct metrics. Also, remember that you can run compression checks and see a certain range "compress" while other areas of the operational bandwidth still have a ways to go. This is especially true in room with all the possible modes/nulls.

Seriously, how far are you from us like 6-8 hours? Maybe I can talk Jim into a big BBQ at the shop type of thing later this summer. You can show me some tips on rew inroom, Jim can setup outside, and we can have bear123 at the grill..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I'm only 2.5 hours away I can bring homemade cookies and strawberry rubarb pie:)

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post #11927 of 12897 Old 06-01-2014, 11:28 PM
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Ok so I have 2 seats in the front row but I sit in the left one. But I went ahead and measured the right seat as well which turned to be flatter across the board than the left seat and doesn't have that nasty null at 80. I tried many many combinations of phase, xo, and distance and have it narrowed down to either 8' distance and phase 0 or 12' distance and phase 100% I overlayed both graphs for both seats and honestly there's pros and cons to each one. So I decided to do some real world tests and popped in some bass scenes on movies that I know the sound well and switched between the 8' and 12' And wouldn't you know it, again they came out equal. One sounded better in this movie and the other setting sounded better in another movie.

Unfortunately I don't have the graphs on this computer as my sister in law needed her laptop but told me she wouldn't delete anything so I will post them later this week hopefully.

So through all this I think the only thing I can confirm is that I've gone crosseyed...

Let me ask you guys this, when should I get concerned as far as a drop in DB's? 10db, 5db, 15? And i'm talking between 30 and 90hz. 5db doesn't really mean much below 20hz right?

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post #11928 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 02:35 AM
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Let me ask you guys this, when should I get concerned as far as a drop in DB's? 10db, 5db, 15? And i'm talking between 30 and 90hz. 5db doesn't really mean much below 20hz right?

Play some music with bass kind of loud.  Now turn up your sub in your avr by 6 dB.  I will bet this will make a huge difference.  IMO, more than a 3 dB variance will be noticeable, hence the common +/- 3dB standard for FR.

 

Solution:  Dual subs!  :D

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post #11929 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Ok so I have 2 seats in the front row but I sit in the left one. But I went ahead and measured the right seat as well which turned to be flatter across the board than the left seat and doesn't have that nasty null at 80. I tried many many combinations of phase, xo, and distance and have it narrowed down to either 8' distance and phase 0 or 12' distance and phase 100% I overlayed both graphs for both seats and honestly there's pros and cons to each one. So I decided to do some real world tests and popped in some bass scenes on movies that I know the sound well and switched between the 8' and 12' And wouldn't you know it, again they came out equal. One sounded better in this movie and the other setting sounded better in another movie.

Unfortunately I don't have the graphs on this computer as my sister in law needed her laptop but told me she wouldn't delete anything so I will post them later this week hopefully.

So through all this I think the only thing I can confirm is that I've gone crosseyed...

Let me ask you guys this, when should I get concerned as far as a drop in DB's? 10db, 5db, 15? And i'm talking between 30 and 90hz. 5db doesn't really mean much below 20hz right?

This statement insinuates that you have a dedicated theater room, correct? However, you keep saying you have no option to move your sub. Can you tell us why you can't move your sub??
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post #11930 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 11:00 AM
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This statement insinuates that you have a dedicated theater room, correct? However, you keep saying you have no option to move your sub. Can you tell us why you can't move your sub??

Yes I have a dedicated Theatre room. I cannot move or add another sub because of the size of the room. The XS30se is in a custom cabinet I built for under the screen that houses all my movies, avr, bd player, as well as shelves for other things down the road.

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post #11931 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 11:32 AM
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Put one in the back of the room.?


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post #11932 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Yes I have a dedicated Theatre room. I cannot move or add another sub because of the size of the room. The XS30se is in a custom cabinet I built for under the screen that houses all my movies, avr, bd player, as well as shelves for other things down the road.

I may have asked already, but could you move the seating? Sometimes just a foot front/back can make a noticeable improvement.

You can check this by moving the measurement mic forward or back (to simulate ear level at the new seating position) and sweeping again.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #11933 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 03:40 PM
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Hey Tom,

I have an XS30, along with SC-67. I am finally getting around to calibrating this sub and have downloaded REW for the use of the sine waves and bought an SPL meter. You had gave me these instructions earlier:

"I would start with the subwoofer level control in the receiver at its mid point. Then turn the sub gain all the way down. Place the meter as close to ear level as possible at your seating position----C weighting. Now, start with say a 35hz test tone/sine wave and turn the sub gain up just enough so it registers 70dB on the meter. Stop the tone, write down on the notepad. Now, I'd start at every 5hz. 80,75,70,60 and so on...down to say 15hz."

Am I missing anything? So I just plug my laptop into my AVR via HDMI and run those waves are various intervals and record what the SPL meter is displaying? Does it matter that I have already ran the auto cal. in MCACC?

Sorry, I'm extremely new to all of this.... maybe a point by point instructions would be great smile.gif

Anyone else, please feel free if you can help out.
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post #11934 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post

Hey Tom,

I have an XS30, along with SC-67. I am finally getting around to calibrating this sub and have downloaded REW for the use of the sine waves and bought an SPL meter. You had gave me these instructions earlier:

"I would start with the subwoofer level control in the receiver at its mid point. Then turn the sub gain all the way down. Place the meter as close to ear level as possible at your seating position----C weighting. Now, start with say a 35hz test tone/sine wave and turn the sub gain up just enough so it registers 70dB on the meter. Stop the tone, write down on the notepad. Now, I'd start at every 5hz. 80,75,70,60 and so on...down to say 15hz."

Am I missing anything? So I just plug my laptop into my AVR via HDMI and run those waves are various intervals and record what the SPL meter is displaying? Does it matter that I have already ran the auto cal. in MCACC?

Sorry, I'm extremely new to all of this.... maybe a point by point instructions would be great smile.gif

Anyone else, please feel free if you can help out.

You don't have to worry about manually noting each test frequency if you are using REW. Instead of the sine waves just use the SWEEP function in REW. Keep the output levels low(75-80dB) and use a sweep around 5 seconds or so. You will need to connect the soundcard output of the PC to one of the analog inputs on your receiver. I don't have much hands on with REW but I believe you can use the SPL meter as he microphone.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #11935 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

I'm only 2.5 hours away I can bring homemade cookies and strawberry rubarb pie:)

That works, we'll try to make this happen late summer(ish)..smile.gif


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post #11936 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

You don't have to worry about manually noting each test frequency if you are using REW. Instead of the sine waves just use the SWEEP function in REW. Keep the output levels low(75-80dB) and use a sweep around 5 seconds or so. You will need to connect the soundcard output of the PC to one of the analog inputs on your receiver. I don't have much hands on with REW but I believe you can use the SPL meter as he microphone.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I don't have RCA out on my laptop. Would I just use a headphone to RCA or something?
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post #11937 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 03:52 PM
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I don't have RCA out on my laptop. Would I just use a headphone to RCA or something?

also I have the SPL meter you suggested, HDE-J11, which has a USB output. I wonder if I could hook that directly up to the computer as well?....
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post #11938 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 05:01 PM
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I don't have RCA out on my laptop. Would I just use a headphone to RCA or something?

You will need a 3.5mm to RCA adapter most likely.

Tom V.
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post #11939 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post

also I have the SPL meter you suggested, HDE-J11, which has a USB output. I wonder if I could hook that directly up to the computer as well?....

i'll need to google that. When I recommended that particular SPL meter I didn't consider you may need to use it as the mic for REW. Let me check on this for you.

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Power Sound Audio
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post #11940 of 12897 Old 06-02-2014, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

I may have asked already, but could you move the seating? Sometimes just a foot front/back can make a noticeable improvement.

You can check this by moving the measurement mic forward or back (to simulate ear level at the new seating position) and sweeping again.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I cannot, the front seats are butted right up against the riser for the second row.

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