Official Power Sound Audio Thread - Page 407 - AVS Forum
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post #12181 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 12:57 PM
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post #12182 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi all,

we spent a good part of 2013 redesigning the Power-X drivers. I believe the new * single stack* drivers started shipping in 4th quarter, 2013. The new driver had *very* similar performance to the original "triple stack Power-X driver so we never offered them as an upgrade. The only real performance improvement of note was *slightly* higher output in the 60-100hz range. By the time we got all the new photos and information ready to update the website for the new version....it had become clear to us we were very likely moving to a custom Lab15 variant. So we just skipped the "single stack" update and concentrated on the Lab15 variant information. The "triple stack" and "single stack" drivers are so close in overall performance that you could use one of each in a XS30 or XV30F with no problems for example.

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Power Sound Audio

Thanks Tom. Just a curiosity on my part. I was looking at pics on my computer and it caught my eye.

Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Dual PSA XV-15se Subwoofers - Samsung UN55C8000 3D LED TV - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - Logitech Harmony One...
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post #12183 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

You will notice a difference with BOTH music and movies, trust me!!!!!

Hi Mike. Perhaps. But since I already own a superior sub for music, that's no longer a requirement for me. As far as hearing/feeling a difference in movies, that too may be true, but since I'm extremely pleased with the XS30's LFE performance I don't see spending an additional $500 is going to improve what I already have to that significant of a degree. If I were not pleased with the XS30's performance, I'd just go out and get the SubMersive and call it a day wink.gif.
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post #12184 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

I still have one of each version and there is a difference but I agree with what basshead said, I don't pick up much difference (if any) when playing movies at the levels I usually watch them at. But the SE version does seem to be better for music and that's saying something because I think the original plays music very well.

In the end I most likely will upgrade my non SE XV15 because it's a good deal at $275 and I would like my duals to be a matched pair, but I'm still very happy with the original XV15 and have never heard it make any funny noises no matter what I've thrown at it. So I agree the new drivers make a difference but I'm not sold on the idea that there is such a night and day difference between them, they're both very good. And I've compared them right next to one another playing the same material at the same settings. I still still maintain what I said a month ago, you will notice the difference on movies if you push them but if you listen at low to moderate levels you may not notice the upgrade.

In the end I still agree with what Tom has said, this upgrade may not be something that will benefit everyone based on their listening preferences. 

I listened to both music and movies between 15-20, with reference being 0 and I notice a big difference with the new drivers, now I'm running a XS30es which is sealed compared to your ported XV15es so " maybe the difference in drivers in both sealed and ported are different. I noticed more output but to my ears the biggest improvement is in accuracy, quickness, no overhang, ect.... I know the ported models with the new drivers gained more output than the sealed subs did, where as maybe the sealed subs biggest increase comes in the form of accuracy, who knows. I also have a completely sealed treated room and what sounds good in my room my not sound good in yours. I'm just reporting on my thoughts in my room.

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post #12185 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 01:55 PM
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Mike - Is there a typo in your statement .. did you upgrade from a xv15 (non-se) to a xs30se?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

I listened to both music and movies between 15-20, with reference being 0 and I notice a big difference with the new drivers, now I'm running a XS30es which is sealed compared to a ported XV15es so " maybe the difference in drivers in both sealed and ported are different. I noticed more output but to my ears the biggest improvement is in accuracy, quickness, no overhang, ect.... I know the ported models with the new drivers gained more output than the sealed subs did, where as maybe the sealed subs biggest increase comes in the form of accuracy, who knows. I also have a completely sealed treated room and what sounds good in my room my not sound good in yours. I'm just reporting on my thoughts in my room.

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post #12186 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post


I listened to both music and movies between 15-20, with reference being 0 and I notice a big difference with the new drivers, now I'm running a XS30es which is sealed compared to a ported XV15es so " maybe the difference in drivers in both sealed and ported are different. I noticed more output but to my ears the biggest improvement is in accuracy, quickness, no overhang, ect.... I know the ported models with the new drivers gained more output than the sealed subs did, where as maybe the sealed subs biggest increase comes in the form of accuracy, who knows. I also have a completely sealed treated room and what sounds good in my room my not sound good in yours. I'm just reporting on my thoughts in my room.

 

Oh I'm not questioning your findings and I agree with everything you just said about different subs and different rooms may very well result in different results, in fact it would be odd if our results weren't different. My point is the original PSA subs were very good and even though the new drivers are nice people shouldn't feel like their original PSA subs are no longer great subs. If the original subs were great two months ago then they are still great today. That fact hasn't changed just because the SE version has come out. 

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post #12187 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

Oh I'm not questioning your findings and I agree with everything you just said about different subs and different rooms may very well result in different results, in fact it would be odd if our results weren't different. My point is the original PSA subs were very good and even though the new drivers are nice people shouldn't feel like their original PSA subs are no longer great subs. If the original subs were great two months ago then they are still great today. That fact hasn't changed just because the SE version has come out. 


I agree with you 100%, the non SE subs ARE great and everyone who is not upgrading should rest assure they still have a great sub. Its just that the new drivers take them to a new level ( my opinion ).
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post #12188 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

Hi Mike. Perhaps. But since I already own a superior sub for music, that's no longer a requirement for me. As far as hearing/feeling a difference in movies, that too may be true, but since I'm extremely pleased with the XS30's LFE performance I don't see spending an additional $500 is going to improve what I already have to that significant of a degree. If I were not pleased with the XS30's performance, I'd just go out and get the SubMersive and call it a day wink.gif.

Yea but think of it like this...for 500.00 you can upgrade to the Submersive jr. smile.gif
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post #12189 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

Mike - Is there a typo in your statement .. did you upgrade from a xv15 (non-se) to a xs30se?


No typo, Hopinator has a XV15es and a XV15 and he was comparing the two of them, I was just stating I went from a XS30 to a XS30se and that the upgrade difference between 2 models, ( his being ported and mine being sealed ) " might " be different. In the end regardless of what PSA sub you own rest assure that you have a great sub that comes with top notch customer service!!!!!!!
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post #12190 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yea but think of it like this...for 500.00 you can upgrade to the Submersive jr. smile.gif

LOL. Actually, I really don't worry about the $500. I'm lazy and don't want to mess with swapping the drivers and amp out and shipping the old ones back. I'd rather just buy the whole package. I'll also state that I was initially looking at the Sub 2 and Gotham, but felt they were a bit pricey (understatement). After much research I trimmed my list down to the sealed Rythmik (which wasn't available for audition at the time), the XS30 and the SubMersive (I was also seriously looking at Funk Audio). While I was leaning toward the SubMersive, I just felt it would be a huge overkill for my needs and that is why I chose the XS30. Heck, I feel the XS30 is a huge overkill. I mean, how hard do I want my floors, walls and seat to shake? Yep, I'm probably in the minority here smile.gif.
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post #12191 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

LOL. Actually, I really don't worry about the $500. I'm lazy and don't want to mess with swapping the drivers and amp out and shipping the old ones back. I'd rather just buy the whole package. I'll also state that I was initially looking at the Sub 2 and Gotham, but felt they were a bit pricey (understatement). After much research I trimmed my list down to the sealed Rythmik (which wasn't available for audition at the time), the XS30 and the SubMersive (I was also seriously looking at Funk Audio). While I was leaning toward the SubMersive, I just felt it would be a huge overkill for my needs and that is why I chose the XS30. Heck, I feel the XS30 is a huge overkill. I mean, how hard do I want my floors, walls and seat to shake? Yep, I'm probably in the minority here smile.gif.

You're in bass denial brother. You're list contains some of the most powerful subwoofers in the world and you settled on the last expensive. Sub 2, seriously? Welcome to the fold. This is BAA (bass addicts anonymous).

Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Dual PSA XV-15se Subwoofers - Samsung UN55C8000 3D LED TV - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - Logitech Harmony One...
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post #12192 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 04:13 PM
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^^ You got me chuckling. So true, climber ... so true. I actually had 10 subwoofers on my initial list. I tested the SB13-Ultra against the Hsu ULS-15 and surprisingly bought the Ultra (even though the Ultra was $500 more). But I'm a lot more anal when it comes to music. When I looked for a sub for my TV, I was looking for something that I would not want to sell or give away after a year. I couldn't audition the Sub 2 (no one in So. Cal had one at the time), but did audition the Sub 1 and the JL Audio F212 Fathom (they had that beautiful Gotham, but it wasn't hooked up). I'm fortunate in that I could afford just about any subwoofer, but common sense and value prevailed (as it usually does with me ... I have a Camaro instead of a Vet). Luckily for me and my wallet, the XS30 does precisely what I hoped it would do ... but I wouldn't be completely honest if I didn't say I wondered about those other subs from time to time. And I will always wonder about the SubMersive wink.gif
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post #12193 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

^^ You got me chuckling. So true, climber ... so true. I actually had 10 subwoofers on my initial list. I tested the SB13-Ultra against the Hsu ULS-15 and surprisingly bought the Ultra (even though the Ultra was $500 more). But I'm a lot more anal when it comes to music. When I looked for a sub for my TV, I was looking for something that I would not want to sell or give away after a year. I couldn't audition the Sub 2 (no one in So. Cal had one at the time), but did audition the Sub 1 and the JL Audio F212 Fathom (they had that beautiful Gotham, but it wasn't hooked up). I'm fortunate in that I could afford just about any subwoofer, but common sense and value prevailed (as it usually does with me ... I have a Camaro instead of a Vet). Luckily for me and my wallet, the XS30 does precisely what I hoped it would do ... but I wouldn't be completely honest if I didn't say I wondered about those other subs from time to time. And I will always wonder about the SubMersive wink.gif

I have a '14 SS and always wonder about the new Stingray LOL biggrin.gif

But I recently got to sit in one and my 6'4" frame just does not fit in there without my knees touching the steering wheel frown.gif

I'm not one of those people that cares much about how comfortable a car is (especially a sports/muscle car) but I just don't think I could handle the Stingray for very long. Have plenty of room in the Camaro though (seat all the way back of course)

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post #12194 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 04:23 PM
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^^ Great car, jarretc! For you it's your height not fitting into a Vet. For me it is age. I'm not as nimble as I use to be, and every time I climb out of my brother's vet I thank God I bought the Camaro!
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post #12195 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 04:23 PM
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I think the issue with subwoofers is that there is a big learning curve, especially if you start frequenting forums.  I think there are big leaps in understanding that you gain as you go along.  I started with a passive 8" JBL HTiB sub.  The 10" Polk seemed like a large upgrade...flat to 38 Hz!  Then I thought all was well with my first real sub...PB1-2NSD.  Oh, but wait, the PB2000 came out two weeks later....ooops wait...dual subs is much better......and now I have dual PSA XV15se's.  Am I happy?  Indeed.  Is it the best subwoofer system that I can get for the money spent?  I think so.  I will likely be happy for quite some time.  However, a part of me realizes that there is still a little bit left to chase someday if I ever desire(As in I am not flat at 115 dB down to 15 Hz).  My single XS30 was amazing...but watching the same scenes at the same volume...the dual subs are a DRASTIC improvement.  These well built ID subs stop getting louder when they reach their limit and sometimes you just don't realize you are missing anything.  I am sure dual XS30's would have been a drastic improvement as well but like Dsrussell, I drew the line in the sand with what I spent on the dual XV's.  I would have to go with larger and more expensive subs to improve on what I have, and I am not willing to do that at this time.  

 

     For my -20 to -15 MV listening they exceed my needs.  I have 110 dB from 20 Hz to crossover, assuming my mic is accurate.  Output at 16 Hz with the 110 dB sweep is around 105, but I have hit 108.  I think that is not far off where I should be with a 3m avg distance to the subs.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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Harmony 650

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post #12196 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 04:38 PM
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^^ There really is a learning curve, bear. I never owned a subwoofer until my son bought me a BIC for my TV viewing many years ago for Christmas. Last year I spent over 4 months learning as much as I could by reading and auditioning. I felt the BIC was just fine for my needs for TV viewing, and was only looking for a sub to enhance my music system. Yeah, right. I hooked up the Ultra and Hsu and realized I was missing a lot of LFE movie content. I kept the Ultra for my living room and got the XS30 for my family room. And as you stated, there is a line that everyone draws. Sometimes that line gets a bit off-kilter, but a line nonetheless. Now, if I had a dedicated home theater, my choice may have been quite different.
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post #12197 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
 

I think the issue with subwoofers is that there is a big learning curve, especially if you start frequenting forums.  I think there are big leaps in understanding that you gain as you go along.  I started with a passive 8" JBL HTiB sub.  The 10" Polk seemed like a large upgrade...flat to 38 Hz!  Then I thought all was well with my first real sub...PB1-2NSD.  Oh, but wait, the PB2000 came out two weeks later....ooops wait...dual subs is much better......and now I have dual PSA XV15se's.  Am I happy?  Indeed.  Is it the best subwoofer system that I can get for the money spent?  I think so.  I will likely be happy for quite some time.  However, a part of me realizes that there is still a little bit left to chase someday if I ever desire(As in I am not flat at 115 dB down to 15 Hz).  My single XS30 was amazing...but watching the same scenes at the same volume...the dual subs are a DRASTIC improvement.  

Well said Bear. I know exactly what you mean. I'm really happy with my dual XV15s but last night I found myself laying in bed thinking about getting quad XV15s. Then I had a reality check and said "maybe someday but not now." But I have to wonder about myself, I've had dual XV15s for six weeks and now I keep dreaming about quads. Will it never end? Don't answer that. ;)

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post #12198 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 04:40 PM
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Yeah I think the XV's are perfect for my main living room.  If I had a dedicated theater, I am pretty sure I would either get dual Captivator 2400's or more likely, an equivalent DIY setup.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

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post #12199 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 04:47 PM
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Edited, I think what I posted was an error.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

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post #12200 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

Well said Bear. I know exactly what you mean. I'm really happy with my dual XV15s but last night I found myself laying in bed thinking about getting quad XV15s. Then I had a reality check and said "maybe someday but not now." But I have to wonder about myself, I've had dual XV15s for six weeks and now I keep dreaming about quads. Will it never end? Don't answer that. wink.gif

The sickness never ends!!!!!!! Please let us know how quad 15's sound when you get them.

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post #12201 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 05:01 PM
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http://youtu.be/QULCgYt0xsc

Here is a short vid playing some music at +5. Note the phone in my speaker is distorting not the subs lol. 128db peaks at the LP, if I run the subs hotter I bet I can peg 130...wife came home and gave me the look...to be continued smile.gif
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post #12202 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

My single XS30 was amazing...but watching the same scenes at the same volume...the dual subs are a DRASTIC improvement.  These well built ID subs stop getting louder when they reach their limit and sometimes you just don't realize you are missing anything.  I am sure dual XS30's would have been a drastic improvement as well but like Dsrussell, I drew the line in the sand with what I spent on the dual XV's.

Yes, it has crossed my mind on more than one occasion to add an XS30se in my family room (I think it would mate well with the original), but there are complications. I'd either have to fish wires up through the wall and across the overhead plenum area and down another wall, or try out wireless (which I think would be a mistake). Needless to say that if I'm too lazy to disassemble, assemble, then box up and return drivers and amp, I'm not likely to play in the attic space and snake wires smile.gif.
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post #12203 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 06:33 PM
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The most eye opening experience was on the OHF Washington Monument Scene.  I never understood why so many people claimed that it was a great ULF scenes, one of the very best.  I was always much more impressed with WoTW pod scene, but I think that is because it has a wide range of bass, not just extremely low.  The OHF scene is almost all 16-25 and is not very loud in any other area.  So hitting my limits on this scene sounded ok but nothing WOW.  The dual XV15's totally changed the impact of the scene.  Of course, from a single XS30 to dual XV15se I probably have triple the output in this area.  My goal, once I learned more, was to make sure that I could play all content down to 15/16 Hz without compression at my preferred listening level.


AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #12204 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 07:03 PM
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The most eye opening experience was on the OHF Washington Monument Scene.  I never understood why so many people claimed that it was a great ULF scenes, one of the very best.  I was always much more impressed with WoTW pod scene, but I think that is because it has a wide range of bass, not just extremely low.  The OHF scene is almost all 16-25 and is not very loud in any other area.  So hitting my limits on this scene sounded ok but nothing WOW.  The dual XV15's totally changed the impact of the scene.  Of course, from a single XS30 to dual XV15se I probably have triple the output in this area.  My goal, once I learned more, was to make sure that I could play all content down to 15/16 Hz without compression at my preferred listening level.

What movie is this?

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post #12205 of 13507 Old 06-10-2014, 07:08 PM
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post #12206 of 13507 Old 06-11-2014, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

The most eye opening experience was on the OHF Washington Monument Scene.  I never understood why so many people claimed that it was a great ULF scenes, one of the very best.  I was always much more impressed with WoTW pod scene, but I think that is because it has a wide range of bass, not just extremely low.  The OHF scene is almost all 16-25 and is not very loud in any other area.  So hitting my limits on this scene sounded ok but nothing WOW.  The dual XV15's totally changed the impact of the scene.  Of course, from a single XS30 to dual XV15se I probably have triple the output in this area.  My goal, once I learned more, was to make sure that I could play all content down to 15/16 Hz without compression at my preferred listening level.

Your really still not even coming close to experiencing this scene. It wasn't until I got my second xs30 and was strong to 10hz that I began to realize the impact of this scene. The major points if this scene are <15hz

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post #12207 of 13507 Old 06-11-2014, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by bear123 

The most eye opening experience was on the OHF Washington Monument Scene.  I never understood why so many people claimed that it was a great ULF scenes, one of the very best.  I was always much more impressed with WoTW pod scene, but I think that is because it has a wide range of bass, not just extremely low.  The OHF scene is almost all 16-25 and is not very loud in any other area.  So hitting my limits on this scene sounded ok but nothing WOW.  The dual XV15's totally changed the impact of the scene.  Of course, from a single XS30 to dual XV15se I probably have triple the output in this area.  My goal, once I learned more, was to make sure that I could play all content down to 15/16 Hz without compression at my preferred listening level.


Your really still not even coming close to experiencing this scene. It wasn't until I got my second xs30 and was strong to 10hz that I began to realize the impact of this scene. The major points if this scene are <15hz
I cannot wait until I add a second XS30es, all this talk about duals and quads is driving me nuts!!!!

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post #12208 of 13507 Old 06-11-2014, 08:49 PM
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I cannot wait until I add a second XS30es, all this talk about duals and quads is driving me nuts!!!!
Don't forget about the triples...130db capability
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post #12209 of 13507 Old 06-11-2014, 09:11 PM
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Don't forget about the triples...130db capability

Please stop!!! My buddy keeps telling me I should get 4, one for each corner. I think I will be happy with 2 though, I hope.

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post #12210 of 13507 Old 06-11-2014, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Your really still not even coming close to experiencing this scene. It wasn't until I got my second xs30 and was strong to 10hz that I began to realize the impact of this scene. The major points if this scene are <15hz
I think dual XS30's would have been a big improvement on this scene as well..it was just beyond what I was willing to spend. However, I have to disagree with you on what frequencies really create a lot of impact. After all that I have read, learned, and experienced, I believe being flat to 10 Hz is giving great capability in the region we can feel and notice a lot more: above 15 Hz. That particular scene(OHF Washington Monument) is centered very strongly right around 20 Hz if I remember from the spectrogram. Although something may change my opinion/belief in this area at some point, I can't help but recall instances in which very experienced home theater buffs grade ported caps as playing deeper than Submersives on famous ULF scenes(which they obviously don't) when the testing is blind. I think the effects of 15+ are order of magnitudes stronger than what we perceive below this region, to the point where it renders those frequencies negligible in comparison. This was even noted with two Caps vs three submersives, so I don't think there was any unfair advantage(perhaps in favor of the Submersives if anything)

I would have liked to have gotten dual XS30's, but I still believe that dual XV's, with more output 16-25 Hz, give a stronger performance than sealed subs(only on certain content), even when the scene includes content well below 15 Hz. I think the XS30 maintained better composure when pushed to its limits..I never noticed it stumble. Ported subs seem much easier to really notice when pushed past their limits.

I think I would have to demo a reference capable system down to single digits with single digit scenes, and then do LPF at 15 to see what change, if any, can be noticed.

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Last edited by bear123; 06-11-2014 at 11:12 PM.
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