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post #13231 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 01:41 PM
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I don't post very much on the thread here but read the posts daily.
Truly some bad news to hear jbrown, it's hard to lose a good buddy.

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post #13232 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 01:59 PM
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Whoa...somber news indeed...

Thanks for sharing..Joe...

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post #13233 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 03:07 PM
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Anyone know if the PSA subs (original XS15 in particular) have a built in HPF?? If so, where is it set and what slope?
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post #13234 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 03:17 PM
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After a weekend of frustration, I'm afraid the PSA XV15se just isn't working for my situation. My room is 11'-6" wide and 26' long. Within that rectangle, I'm basically using half the room for home theater. TV/receiver is on the long wall, but off center to one side. Main listening area is on the opposite wall, straight across from it. Best spot for sub is in the corner on the listening area side, about 6-7 feet away from the couch. There is a leather chair in that corner, directly in front of the sub.

With the XV15se, calibrating with Audyssey (Onkyo TX-NR509), the sub is very weak when run at half gain, which I've read is where you should always start calibration. I bumped up the level within the receiver 6db and the center 3db. With dynamic EQ off, the sub is still really weak for movies. With it on it's still weak for movies. What it boils down to is if I turn the sub gain up to around 3 o'colck and run dynamic EQ, the movies sound really good. If I run this same setting with music, it's WAY too much bass. With dynamic EQ off, I have to turn the sub gain way up and boost it within the receiver settings. as well for movies. This is overkill with music.

What's more odd is my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus I run at 12 o'clock and just run Audyssey, then boost up the receiver level some and it's done. Without dynamic EQ I get good bass response in both music and movies. I don't understand how a more powerful sub like the XV15se can't be balanced. Any ideas?
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post #13235 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
After a weekend of frustration, I'm afraid the PSA XV15se just isn't working for my situation. My room is 11'-6" wide and 26' long. Within that rectangle, I'm basically using half the room for home theater. TV/receiver is on the long wall, but off center to one side. Main listening area is on the opposite wall, straight across from it. Best spot for sub is in the corner on the listening area side, about 6-7 feet away from the couch. There is a leather chair in that corner, directly in front of the sub.

With the XV15se, calibrating with Audyssey (Onkyo TX-NR509), the sub is very weak when run at half gain, which I've read is where you should always start calibration. I bumped up the level within the receiver 6db and the center 3db. With dynamic EQ off, the sub is still really weak for movies. With it on it's still weak for movies. What it boils down to is if I turn the sub gain up to around 3 o'colck and run dynamic EQ, the movies sound really good. If I run this same setting with music, it's WAY too much bass. With dynamic EQ off, I have to turn the sub gain way up and boost it within the receiver settings. as well for movies. This is overkill with music.

What's more odd is my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus I run at 12 o'clock and just run Audyssey, then boost up the receiver level some and it's done. Without dynamic EQ I get good bass response in both music and movies. I don't understand how a more powerful sub like the XV15se can't be balanced. Any ideas?
Where did Audyssey set your sub trim before you boosted it 6db? With the sub gain at 12:00 I'm guessing it would be around "0db" or higher.

Where are your crossovers set?

Is the bass good anywhere in the room? You may be sitting in a null.

Do you have the ability to measure your response? Have and SPL meter?

Did you do the sub crawl?

Are you listening to music and movies from the same source?
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post #13236 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 04:09 PM
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Man I am sooo bummed to hear about Steve. We were good forum buds and always PM eachother back n forth. I sent him a few pm's the were never responded too. I hoped he was just too busy because his dad was not doing well. Well dang I really do not know what else to say other then that flat out SUCKS!

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post #13237 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 04:14 PM
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Set the sub gain to 2:00 and rerun audyssey. You should of simply asked for advice before spending all weekend with improper calibration. I have yet to see anybody recomend 12:00 for the gain setting on a Power X sub. Not all sub amps require the same amp gain, so do not use that to determine if a sub is weak. My little Pinnacle subsonic only needs the gain set at 10:00 but it is knowhere near the level of one of my XV15se. Again start at 2:00, run audyssey and bump the avr sub trim up 5-6db from where audyssey sets it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
After a weekend of frustration, I'm afraid the PSA XV15se just isn't working for my situation. My room is 11'-6" wide and 26' long. Within that rectangle, I'm basically using half the room for home theater. TV/receiver is on the long wall, but off center to one side. Main listening area is on the opposite wall, straight across from it. Best spot for sub is in the corner on the listening area side, about 6-7 feet away from the couch. There is a leather chair in that corner, directly in front of the sub.

With the XV15se, calibrating with Audyssey (Onkyo TX-NR509), the sub is very weak when run at half gain, which I've read is where you should always start calibration. I bumped up the level within the receiver 6db and the center 3db. With dynamic EQ off, the sub is still really weak for movies. With it on it's still weak for movies. What it boils down to is if I turn the sub gain up to around 3 o'colck and run dynamic EQ, the movies sound really good. If I run this same setting with music, it's WAY too much bass. With dynamic EQ off, I have to turn the sub gain way up and boost it within the receiver settings. as well for movies. This is overkill with music.

What's more odd is my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus I run at 12 o'clock and just run Audyssey, then boost up the receiver level some and it's done. Without dynamic EQ I get good bass response in both music and movies. I don't understand how a more powerful sub like the XV15se can't be balanced. Any ideas?
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post #13238 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Where did Audyssey set your sub trim before you boosted it 6db? With the sub gain at 12:00 I'm guessing it would be around "0db" or higher.

Where are your crossovers set?

Is the bass good anywhere in the room? You may be sitting in a null.

Do you have the ability to measure your response? Have and SPL meter?

Did you do the sub crawl?

Are you listening to music and movies from the same source?
Audyssey had sub level at -5db. I even bumped it up to +5db and it was still weak.

I've been using 70 or 80 for XO. I'm running Infinity Primus P363 fronts and the other 3 are P163.

I've calibrated subs in the past in this room and I'm using the best location possible for the sub.

I don't have an SPL meter.

I did sub crawl a few different times and the current sub location is in the best possible spot.

Movies are played through Blu-Ray player. Music off the receiver, with USB stick.

I've bumped the gain on the sub to 3-4 o'clock, which seems way too hot to me. At this setting movies actually feel like the sub is performing closer to what it should be, but with this same setting the bass in music is EXTREMELY overdone. All this is odd, like I said, because the Outlaw is pretty easy to calibrate and set to where it works great for music and movies. I really don't see why I should either have to run the XV15se either with dynamic EQ, or with the sub cranked up almost all the way without it, at least for movies.
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post #13239 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 05:22 PM
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I see DIY in your future dude. Maybe before the Triaxs....maybe after....but it will happen.
Alan, funny you would say that as I just converted a 13' X 30' enclosed sun porch (room) to a work shop, all kinds of tools and just finished building my new stands for the PSA speakers. My wife said the same thing today as the 11th sub(s) left the house this morning. I am fascinated with DIY and my sister has more tools than I do and can build anything with wood, she is an industrial arts major, she just finished a huge project in her home all by her self. I have a friend who is a cabinet maker and I can get all of his left over stock, birch, oak and maple. Now that I have my legs back, dual total hip replacement I feel like a new man, old but new . I'm going to relax and enjoy what I have now, who knows next month
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post #13240 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Audyssey had sub level at -5db. I even bumped it up to +5db and it was still weak.

I've been using 70 or 80 for XO. I'm running Infinity Primus P363 fronts and the other 3 are P163.

I've calibrated subs in the past in this room and I'm using the best location possible for the sub.

I don't have an SPL meter.

I did sub crawl a few different times and the current sub location is in the best possible spot.

Movies are played through Blu-Ray player. Music off the receiver, with USB stick.

I've bumped the gain on the sub to 3-4 o'clock, which seems way too hot to me. At this setting movies actually feel like the sub is performing closer to what it should be, but with this same setting the bass in music is EXTREMELY overdone. All this is odd, like I said, because the Outlaw is pretty easy to calibrate and set to where it works great for music and movies. I really don't see why I should either have to run the XV15se either with dynamic EQ, or with the sub cranked up almost all the way without it, at least for movies.
I'm no expert by any means but setting your sub trim level on the + side of 0 is not so good, you at least have to get an SPL meter, even I know that, that XV15SE should be blowing you away, I'm not putting the Outlaw down but I don't think it's near the sub the XV15Se is, just my thoughts. If you can get the Outlaw to play nice I don't know why the 15 is not working for you, there has to be something not right.
Cheers Jeff

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post #13241 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I'm no expert by any means but setting your sub trim level on the + side of 0 is not so good, you at least have to get an SPL meter, even I know that, that XV15SE should be blowing you away, I'm not putting the Outlaw down but I don't think it's near the sub the XV15Se is, just my thoughts. If you can get the Outlaw to play nice I don't know why the 15 is not working for you, there has to be something not right.

Is it normal for you guys to have to change up settings on your receiver all the time for games/movies/music? I've always been able to get a sub in that area where the setting can be left alone for everything.
Cheers Jeff
I'm certainly not saying the Outlaw can outperform the PSA, but it just doesn't seem to be cooperating in the calibration process. Like I said, I can jack the sub gain up to 3 or 4 and it will perform. I don't have the SPL meter and I doubt I will be buying one.
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post #13242 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I'm no expert by any means but setting your sub trim level on the + side of 0 is not so good, you at least have to get an SPL meter, even I know that, that XV15SE should be blowing you away, I'm not putting the Outlaw down but I don't think it's near the sub the XV15Se is, just my thoughts. If you can get the Outlaw to play nice I don't know why the 15 is not working for you, there has to be something not right.
Cheers Jeff

Is it normal for you guys to have to change settings for the sub for different inputs (movies/music/games)? I've always been able to get a sub set up to where I can leave it for everything.
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post #13243 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Audyssey had sub level at -5db. I even bumped it up to +5db and it was still weak.

I've been using 70 or 80 for XO. I'm running Infinity Primus P363 fronts and the other 3 are P163.

I've calibrated subs in the past in this room and I'm using the best location possible for the sub.

I don't have an SPL meter.

I did sub crawl a few different times and the current sub location is in the best possible spot.

Movies are played through Blu-Ray player. Music off the receiver, with USB stick.

I've bumped the gain on the sub to 3-4 o'clock, which seems way too hot to me. At this setting movies actually feel like the sub is performing closer to what it should be, but with this same setting the bass in music is EXTREMELY overdone. All this is odd, like I said, because the Outlaw is pretty easy to calibrate and set to where it works great for music and movies. I really don't see why I should either have to run the XV15se either with dynamic EQ, or with the sub cranked up almost all the way without it, at least for movies.
Did you re-run Audyssey after changing the subwoofer gain knob?

Give Tom V a call and I'm sure that, in his considerable experience, he can help you figure out what is going on with your setup. I piddled around for a month with weak bass and finally called Tom. In 15 minutes, he had me right where I wanted to be.

Your goal should be anywhere from -8 dB to -10 dB after Audyssey calibrates your sub. At that point, I recommend bumping up the AVR subwoofer gain from 3 - 5 dB. My room is slightly larger (and am running two XV15se subs) at 16' x 28' x 8'. I also run dynamic EQ and 80 Hz for the speakers. I think there may be something in the mix that is awry. Give Tom a call.
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post #13244 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Audyssey had sub level at -5db. I even bumped it up to +5db and it was still weak.

I've been using 70 or 80 for XO. I'm running Infinity Primus P363 fronts and the other 3 are P163.

I've calibrated subs in the past in this room and I'm using the best location possible for the sub.

I don't have an SPL meter.

I did sub crawl a few different times and the current sub location is in the best possible spot.

Movies are played through Blu-Ray player. Music off the receiver, with USB stick.

I've bumped the gain on the sub to 3-4 o'clock, which seems way too hot to me. At this setting movies actually feel like the sub is performing closer to what it should be, but with this same setting the bass in music is EXTREMELY overdone. All this is odd, like I said, because the Outlaw is pretty easy to calibrate and set to where it works great for music and movies. I really don't see why I should either have to run the XV15se either with dynamic EQ, or with the sub cranked up almost all the way without it, at least for movies.
OK, probably a stupid question, but do you have all speakers set to "small"?
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post #13245 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 08:00 PM
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Anyone know if the PSA subs (original XS15 in particular) have a built in HPF?? If so, where is it set and what slope?
Nobody knows the answer to this?? Basshead?

I know Tom will when he sees it.
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post #13246 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Nobody knows the answer to this?? Basshead?

I know Tom will when he sees it.
There is no hpf filter in the sealed power x subs from my understanding. The have the standard 12db per octave slope starting around 30hz.
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post #13247 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 08:42 PM
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Thanks bh!
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post #13248 of 13332 Old 08-11-2014, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
I'm certainly not saying the Outlaw can outperform the PSA, but it just doesn't seem to be cooperating in the calibration process. Like I said, I can jack the sub gain up to 3 or 4 and it will perform. I don't have the SPL meter and I doubt I will be buying one.
You know, I had a similar problem. Thought the xv15se was lacking power compared to my outlaw EX... Then realized I had the sub cable going to the 'right' input instead of 'left/LFE' on the back of the xv15se. Maybe check that? Since correcting that the xv15se really took off for me.
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post #13249 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
You know, I had a similar problem. Thought the xv15se was lacking power compared to my outlaw EX... Then realized I had the sub cable going to the 'right' input instead of 'left/LFE' on the back of the xv15se. Maybe check that? Since correcting that the xv15se really took off for me.
I'm running a y splitter at the sub end, so both are connected. And yes, all speakers are set to small. I'll re-run Audyssey again and post the results. Should have written the results down when I did this earlier. Might hit Tom V up on chat, as well.
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post #13250 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
I'm running a y splitter at the sub end, so both are connected. And yes, all speakers are set to small. I'll re-run Audyssey again and post the results. Should have written the results down when I did this earlier. Might hit Tom V up on chat, as well.
FWIW I had a hell of a time calibrating my PSA subs as well. I have a XS15se and a XV15. Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume gave me troubles at first, so definitely make sure those are off (sounds like you have already).


My 2nd major problem was during level matching. I constantly wanted to level match at 80db because that had worked with my previous subs. Once I stuck with Audyssey's 75db level matching, I was good to go. Also, the XV15 was almost to powerful for corner placement in my room (just under 3k cuft). If had to bet money, I'd guess that placement is your main issue. The PSA is more powerful than the Outlaw. At low volume it's not doing what you want it to, once you stretch her legs it seems to be overbearing. Sounds like it's picking up decibels from where it's located.


Now, if DEQ is engaged, I tend to leave the sub levels where Audyssey set them. If the track is a little weak, I may give a 3db bump. If DEQ is not engaged, I run them 3db-6db hot, again depending on what I'm watching. It definitely has not been set and forget for me. I will say, the more I listen to them and get used to them blending in my system, I'm playing with the levels a lot less.

Along with making sure your speakers are set to small, make sure that the "double bass" setting is off. Also keep in mind speaker crossovers typically blend best with a good sub around 80hz.


Hope some of that helps.

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post #13251 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wadec22 View Post
Along with making sure your speakers are set to small, make sure that the "double bass" setting is off.
Just FYI - if your mains are set to small, the "double bass" setting will do nothing.
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post #13252 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Just FYI - if your mains are set to small, the "double bass" setting will do nothing.
Doesn't it depend on where the crossover is set? You can have a speaker set to small but still a crossover of 80hz or lower.

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post #13253 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by wadec22 View Post
Doesn't it depend on where the crossover is set? You can have a speaker set to small but still a crossover of 80hz or lower.
My understanding is double bass means all channels are full range + the sub is on.
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post #13254 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
I'm running a y splitter at the sub end, so both are connected. And yes, all speakers are set to small. I'll re-run Audyssey again and post the results. Should have written the results down when I did this earlier. Might hit Tom V up on chat, as well.
I was running a y-splitter in the beginning too. I removed the splitter, set the gain to 2:00 and ran Audyssey. The AVR trim was -12dB. I lowered the sub gain knob to 1:00 and reran Audyssey, and then the AVR set them at -10. I bumped them up to -5dB.

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post #13255 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 08:39 AM
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Just FYI - if your mains are set to small, the "double bass" setting will do nothing.
Re-reading the Audyssey FAQ.... double bass sends all low frequency to sub and speakers. If that setting is on, I understand it's going to override a small speaker setting. I could be misinterpreting. ..

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post #13256 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by wadec22 View Post
Re-reading the Audyssey FAQ.... double bass sends all low frequency to sub and speakers. If that setting is on, I understand it's going to override a small speaker setting. I could be misinterpreting. ..
That is exactly what Alan is trying to say. If your speakers are set small then double bass is off. Again full range speakers(Large) + the sub = Double bass or Extra bass depending on the type of AVR.
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post #13257 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 09:15 AM
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After a weekend of frustration, I'm afraid the PSA XV15se just isn't working for my situation. My room is 11'-6" wide and 26' long. Within that rectangle, I'm basically using half the room for home theater. TV/receiver is on the long wall, but off center to one side. Main listening area is on the opposite wall, straight across from it. Best spot for sub is in the corner on the listening area side, about 6-7 feet away from the couch. There is a leather chair in that corner, directly in front of the sub.

With the XV15se, calibrating with Audyssey (Onkyo TX-NR509), the sub is very weak when run at half gain, which I've read is where you should always start calibration. I bumped up the level within the receiver 6db and the center 3db. With dynamic EQ off, the sub is still really weak for movies. With it on it's still weak for movies. What it boils down to is if I turn the sub gain up to around 3 o'colck and run dynamic EQ, the movies sound really good. If I run this same setting with music, it's WAY too much bass. With dynamic EQ off, I have to turn the sub gain way up and boost it within the receiver settings. as well for movies. This is overkill with music.

What's more odd is my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus I run at 12 o'clock and just run Audyssey, then boost up the receiver level some and it's done. Without dynamic EQ I get good bass response in both music and movies. I don't understand how a more powerful sub like the XV15se can't be balanced. Any ideas?
1)start with the XV15se gain around the 1-2 O-Clock position. Remember the gain control on an amplifier is *not* a volume control. It is more accurate to think of the gain control as a way to adjust the input sensitivity on the subwoofer amplifier. The setting on the gain control is not an indicator of how much "power" the amplifier may be producing at any given time. In most common scenarios the XV15se amplifier will be producing very little power during calibration...often less than one watt.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages/gain-control

2)be sure all speakers are set to small in the receiver's setup menu, with the crossovers set to 80-100hz.

3)crossover control on sub should be set to maximum

4)what did Audyssey set the distance for the sub? What is the actual distance?

5)The XV15se will have about 2.5x more headroom than the outlaw-plus so I'm guessing this is just a questions of getting everything optimized. Hang in there, we'll get it figured out..


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post #13258 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 09:18 AM
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Anyone know if the PSA subs (original XS15 in particular) have a built in HPF?? If so, where is it set and what slope?
There's all kinds of stuff going on to shape our FR to our targets. There's really nothing I can "define" or offer a "slope" though. A little of this, a little of that....shaping the bottom end is like perfecting a great steak recipe..

In terms of a "un-defeat-able" HP in the amplifier topology there is something around 5hz IIRC.

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post #13259 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 11:41 AM
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Okay, here's my Audyssey results with XV15se set to 12 o'clock. I ran it from 3 positions on the main couch.
Speakers= small
XO= 70hz
levels= L-7, C-6, R-6, SR-12, SL-12, sub-6. Note that the surround speakers are on the wall directly behind the couch, so they are close.
distance (feet)= L 11, C 8, R 9, SR 2, SL 2, sub 13

I bumped up the center +3 and the sub +6.
Test material, movie= Rambo, final battle scene. Music= George Strait, The Fireman.
With dynamic EQ off. Movie= weak response. Music= a little weak
With dynamic EQ on. Movie= weak response Music= good, but not great

Audyssey results with XV15se set to 2 o'clock. Same seating positions
speakers= small
XO= 80Hz
levels= L-6, C-6, R-6, SR-12, SL-12, sub-15.
distance (feet)= L 11, C 8, R 9, SR 2, SL 2, sub 13

I bumped up the center +3 and the sub +6.
With dynamic EQ off. Movie= a little weak. Music= pretty good
With dynamic EQ on. Movie= better, but not enough. Music= a little too much bass

Now how this rates is in comparison to the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, which should be no match for the XV15se. My point I was making earlier is I can keep increasing the sub level to get good response for movies, but this totally over does it for music.
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post #13260 of 13332 Old 08-12-2014, 12:59 PM
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Is the bass more balanced in other parts of your room? The new sub may be exciting a mode that the Outlaw didn't, causing a new null to crop up.

If you had REW we would know.
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