Official Power Sound Audio Thread - Page 91 - AVS Forum
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post #2701 of 13058 Old 05-10-2013, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cpetku View Post

why do you say the driver doesn't fire downward? all the pics I've seen show this is the case. even the latest web post shows four legs around the speaker...

My bad, I was thinking of the XS30. I looked at so many subs before ordering mine that I was getting them mixed up. I asked Tom & he said performance would be exactly the same with or without the base. If he is only charging $20 for the base plate I think it's worth it. I wouldn't have thought twice about spending that for the look alone. wink.gif

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post #2702 of 13058 Old 05-10-2013, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Goat1 View Post

So,my sub is on carpet. I like the base because it should disperse the sound,without the bass,won't it deaden the sound on carpet? Also,how much of a difference is there between the xv15 and xs30?

I asked Tom about this too & he said the carpet & pad won't make any difference in the sound ...... unless the carpet is 6" thick! tongue.gif Tom would know so you are safe either way, if you want the base plate just order it with it! cool.gif

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post #2703 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 05:46 AM
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Either way, if a company goes out of there way to redesign something to save money but not sacrifice performance or succumb to moving their manufacturing to a foreign country. As a service member, I tip my hat to you. I wish other companies did the same. Maybe then our economy wouldn't be in the mess it is in today.
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post #2704 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

Either way, if a company goes out of there way to redesign something to save money but not sacrifice performance or succumb to moving their manufacturing to a foreign country. As a service member, I tip my hat to you. I wish other companies did the same. Maybe then our economy wouldn't be in the mess it is in today.

Very good point! I would have to agree with that!! I am suprised the PSA subs are as low priced as they are anyway being the craftmanship and quality thats put into them.
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post #2705 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 06:34 AM
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Yeah, I don't get why people are over-reacting about the new base plate options. Several folks were already asking about removing the base plates, either so that they could reduce the height of the sub, or so that they could re-orient the driver to a forward-firing position.

Now, with the price/performance ratio offered by these subs, one had to know that the price was going to be sensitive to changes in input costs. And we all know that input costs rise over time, right? It's a fact of life. PSA can't just eat that cost and still remain viable. Tom and Jim still need to make a profit, right? Because if they don't, they go out of business and then there are no more PSA subs for anyone.

Now, the simple and easy solution would have been to just raise prices across the board and call it a day, but they didn't do that. They turned a challenge into an opportunity. They offered the subs without base plates, because some customers were looking for that anyway. Also, the reduction in materials and weight of the sub, while leaving performance the same (or perhaps slightly better), represents an increase in efficiency.

Let's not forget that the base plate remains an option.

I have an appreciation for the challenges faced by small businesses. Making it work is HARD. All businesses face challenges, and rising costs is the most common one. Turning a challenge into an opportunity is a special skill. I, for one, think Tom and Jim are to be congratulated on the ingenuity and business savvy they have shown here.

There. Now I'll get down off my soap box and let you return to your regularly scheduled programming. biggrin.gif

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post #2706 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

Either way, if a company goes out of there way to redesign something to save money but not sacrifice performance or succumb to moving their manufacturing to a foreign country. As a service member, I tip my hat to you. I wish other companies did the same. Maybe then our economy wouldn't be in the mess it is in today.

+1

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post #2707 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 06:44 AM
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Also, you can't assume that part suppliers aren't already raising prices if the smell success.

Politics is like religion. You never know who you serve.
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post #2708 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 08:03 AM
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I get what all of you are saying...but this is after the real reason/clarification given by Tom. Of course, they do deserve a lot of credit - these subs are tremendous values- but let's look at the announcement. First, how is this exciting? It should be regrettable due to the rising costs. The power to weight ratio? if it was said tongue in cheek, ok, but it did not come across as such, rather more like silly bs reasoning since the modification is obviously nothing but a cost saving measure. Second, the added bonus is not an added bonus...it's the main reason why this design change had to be made. But putting it secondary, you can draw other conclusions which includes just wanting to cut costs.

They gave a a clarification in this forum - which obviously made perfect sense but that was after the fact. And trust me, I really commend them making it in our proud country and continuing to do so. And now i understand 100% and am very very clear.

Anyway, it's yesterday's news...in a week nobody will remember any of this. smile.gif

"May 09, 2013
XS15 and XV15 Announcement

We are excited to announce an update to our proven XS15 and XV15 subwoofer models. We have eliminated the base plate and replaced it with American manufactured nylon spacers and molded rubber isolation extensions. We are able to reduce the weight and “foot print” of the XS15 and XV15 subwoofers with the combination of these two new parts. To coin an old hot rod term, we've just increased our "power to weight" ratio. Another added bonus is that we have lowered our manufacturing and shipping costs to avoid what we thought was an inevitable price increase on these Power X models."
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post #2709 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Still waiting for PSA to announce a cylinder design that would be a nice upgrade for my current SVS 16-46PC+ (that Tom sold to me years ago). wink.gif. Wishful thinking?


Patience... we've only be shipping product for 9-10 months.

One thing for sure---it won't have a base..wink.gif

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post #2710 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Goat1 View Post

So,my sub is on carpet. I like the base because it should disperse the sound,without the bass,won't it deaden the sound on carpet?

There will be no difference in the way the bass disperses. Please remember the length of the wave we are discussing here. Even at 100hz you are over 11 feet. 1/4 of that is >2.5ft. Is is just physically impossible for an inch(or even 2!)carpeting and/or carpet padding to alter the way a home audio subwoofer's output will arrive at the seating position(s)...except for ONE variable. This variable is the way harmonic distortion may be affected. I think we all know that harmonic distortion is perhaps the most common and audible type of distortion in subwoofer discussion. Now, remember that these harmonics are at multiples of the fundamental. In other words, if your subwoofer is producing a 75hz tone, the harmonic distortion will show up at 150hz, 225hz,300hz,375hz etc. This distortion will *not* be filtered out by any electrical crossover as it is produced by non linear cone movement(usually).

Now, the higher in frequency the distortion, the more audible it will be---that is just the way the human hearing mechanism works. (there is also the issue of odd versus even but leaving that out for now). So having the driver fire into carpeting works in our favor here. Carpet couldn't possibly be thick enough to adversely affect the intended passband of a home audio subwoofer(say 10-120hz). HOWEVER, the carpet CAN be thick enough to attenuate the upper frequency distortion the subwoofer may produce at higher output levels. Now, will this provide a huge "day/night" type of improvement? No. But it does have the potential to provide slightly cleaner bass at your listening position when the subwoofer(s) are pushed to louder levels.

This is all widely accepted in the industry and it is why some very well reviewed subwoofers over the years have, in fact, been down firing with no base(outlaw,hsu,velodyne,sunfire,aperion,the complete list would include dozens..smile.gif


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post #2711 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrischestnut60 View Post

Also, you can't assume that part suppliers aren't already raising prices if the smell success.


I sound naive here but I don't *think* that has been the case..smile.gif While we have seen dozens of different increases in the past year most are relatively small(50 cents here, a dollar there). It all adds up of course but these types of increases are somewhat expected. One of the main increases for us has been the cost of MDF. I'm not sure if you can find it online but there was a recent piece titled "A Monthly Economic Analysis of the North American Particleboard and MDF Markets" (www.risi.com)

We've already seen our pricing go up quite a bit, and it is estimated to increase another 20% in the next 18 months.

Also, I'm not sure where the $20 for the base version" originated but it will be a bit more than that. I haven't had time to add up all of the numbers yet but I'd say a $50 upcharge would be best case.

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post #2712 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

I get what all of you are saying...but this is after the real reason/clarification given by Tom. Of course, they do deserve a lot of credit - these subs are tremendous values- but let's look at the announcement. First, how is this exciting? It should be regrettable due to the rising costs. The power to weight ratio? if it was said tongue in cheek, ok, but it did not come across as such, rather more like silly bs reasoning since the modification is obviously nothing but a cost saving measure. Second, the added bonus is not an added bonus...it's the main reason why this design change had to be made. But putting it secondary, you can draw other conclusions which includes just wanting to cut costs.

They gave a a clarification in this forum - which obviously made perfect sense but that was after the fact. And trust me, I really commend them making it in our proud country and continuing to do so. And now i understand 100% and am very very clear.

Anyway, it's yesterday's news...in a week nobody will remember any of this. smile.gif

"May 09, 2013
XS15 and XV15 Announcement

We are excited to announce an update to our proven XS15 and XV15 subwoofer models. We have eliminated the base plate and replaced it with American manufactured nylon spacers and molded rubber isolation extensions. We are able to reduce the weight and “foot print” of the XS15 and XV15 subwoofers with the combination of these two new parts. To coin an old hot rod term, we've just increased our "power to weight" ratio. Another added bonus is that we have lowered our manufacturing and shipping costs to avoid what we thought was an inevitable price increase on these Power X models."

Do you want them to come out and say "Hey guys, I know youre all gonna get out the pitchforks and torches, but we're changing the design slightly, but you can still have it the old way for a few bucks more"
You can bet the forum would have been a flame war if Tom had come on here and just said he was increasing the prices.

I kind of like the stubby feet look, but I like the base also, either way they are fantastic pieces that will make anybody smile when they are fired up.

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post #2713 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 09:10 AM
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I have been living overseas for the past 22 months (Go Navy!) and was recently looking at plywood prices at my usual source (Hardwoods, Inc in Frederick, MD) and was not happy to see how much more expensive plywood is now than when I moved to Cambodia. Hardwoods, Inc only sells plywood that is Made in the USA vice the imported stuff at the big box stores. However, I think it is worth the extra cost for higher equality. So, no doubt that MDF has also gone up and the volume PSA must purchase it has to have an impact.

Good thing the Feds revised the formula for calculating inflation (insert sarcastic comment here).

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post #2714 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Patience... we've only be shipping product for 9-10 months.

One thing for sure---it won't have a base..wink.gif

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Power Sound Audio

Thanks Tom. I'll keep waiting. Maybe instead of something to replace my sub you'll come out with something that will pair well with it. I'm happy with the way it sounds, it just runs out of headroom and bottoms out every once in a great while (fortunately not very often) with some movies with really strong low bass effects.

No base? It does make the cylinder easy to move. Guess I might have to resort to rolling it into place! eek.gif

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post #2715 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 09:21 AM
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Well at this point it matters not to me. I'm looking at the XS30 and now the XV30 just bc it's a freaking monster.

The XS15 was something I was only 1/2 considering with the XS30 still well within my budget. My whole goal was to avoid paying $1599 for the SVS SB13-ultra.

Just upgrading and getting 2 SB13-ultras is still in the back of my mind but after discovering PSA, I don't think it makes much sense to do that.

I know I'm crazy, but if the xs30 had that base plate my decision would be a lot easier. smile.gif. But since my SB13-plus is awesome for music and one is more than i need for music, getting the XV30 and running dual subs for movies only may be the ticket.
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post #2716 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 09:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

There will be no difference in the way the bass disperses.

To this point, I've yet to be able to come to a personal agreement with your above and the laws surrounding fluid dynamics. I'm not arguing, just saying, fluid dynamics tells me there's more to this story. What, I don't know, the best I can come up with (what I'm looking for) is a sort of amalgam regarding when fluid dynamics meets thermodynamics. That sort of thing.

My personal problem, where the sound waves meet the road, I haven't been able to consolidate the personally perceived conflicts of the two disciplines.

(forgive my ignorance on matters of this kind)

-
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post #2717 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 09:43 AM
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I know I'm crazy, but if the xs30 had that base plate my decision would be a lot easier.
Are you related to Beeman by any chance? wink.gif I own the XS30 and as many others have said, there would be absolutely nothing advantageous about having a base plate on the XS30...not for aesthetics nor functionality.
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post #2718 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 09:47 AM
 
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Are you related to Beeman by any chance? wink.gif I own the XS30 and as many others have said, there would be absolutely nothing advantageous about having a base plate on the XS30...not for aesthetics nor functionality.

Just saying.

Directly, your above doesn't answer my question as my question dealt at the level of Thermodynamics and Fluid Dynamics, not at the level of human perception.

As to aesthetics, nobody is qualified to speak for another regarding issues surrounding aesthetics as aesthetics is personal and only personal.
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post #2719 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 09:54 AM
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I personally think a base plate on a XS30 would just look silly. All it would do is add to the height and weight both of which aren't doing anyone any favors.

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post #2720 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 09:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I personally think a base plate on a XS30 would just look silly. All it would do is add to the height and weight both of which aren't doing anyone any favors.

That's your sense of aesthetics and I haven't a clue why anybody would be in conflict with your sense of aesthetics. Now on the other hand, why would anybody care what anybody else thinks about their sense of aesthetics?
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post #2721 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Also, I'm not sure where the $20 for the base version" originated but it will be a bit more than that. I haven't had time to add up all of the numbers yet but I'd say a $50 upcharge would be best case.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I took that figure from Isdec's post, #2641 (which, I obviously mis-read). I did try to verify that on the PSA website prior to writing my post, but didn't see a price anywhere for it. My apologies for posting incorrect information.

I will edit my post accordingly.

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post #2722 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 10:03 AM
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Well there's really no point in even worry about it BeeMan because unless you plan on buy a XS30, making a base plate yourself and attaching it to the sub it won't happen.

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post #2723 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 10:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Well there's really no point in even worry about it BeeMan because unless you plan on buy a XS30, making a base plate yourself and attaching it to the sub it won't happen.

I never mentioned anything about making a base plate and attaching it myself. confused.gif

More and more it reads like the fashion police are after my sense of aesthetics.
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post #2724 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 12:27 PM
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Will one PSA xv15 outperform two energy s10.3 subwoofers for home theater listening in a 2200 cubic feet room? Thanks.
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post #2725 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 01:37 PM
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My sentiments exactly, MAKE YOUR OWN BASE PLATE, again I will say, I can't imagine a base plate on my XS30s:eek:
OK guys I guess the Creative Sounds price for the Anti-mode 8033 C @ $374 is the best I've seen, correct me if I'm wrong.wink.gif

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post #2726 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 01:50 PM
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I dont know about you guys, but whats under the sub isnt what counts, its whats on top that matters!
This is what I am putting on top of one of mine. ;-)

my 1:1 scale bust of Iron Man

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post #2727 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 01:55 PM
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Hey guys I got a question. Would this be a bad idea? Place my XV30 behind the couch and my HSU VTF3 MK4 in the front corner. Obviously I would turn the gain down on the HSU since it would lose steam and bottom out before the XV30. But what do you guys think of that?
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post #2728 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

My sentiments exactly, MAKE YOUR OWN BASE PLATE, again I will say, I can't imagine a base plate on my XS30s:eek:

Right. The XS30 is the worst looking out of the 4 models. You can't imagine a base plate on that box w the plain looking grills? Lets keep it real here.

The idea of quality dual 15" woofers powered by a solid amp in a thick cabinet is the draw..certainly not the design. And yes it's why it's at such a good price point.

Maybe we are talking about putting lipstick on a pig here. But scoffing at the idea of putting a base plate on a plain box based on the look of the other 3 much better looking subs is not far fetched.

Well now it's just one. No matter though. Looks like PSA is moving away from this signature design anyway. But my decision to order the xs30 won't be based on its beautiful box. smile.gif
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post #2729 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 03:26 PM
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They are not moving away by choice. They could have raised the price and not give the consumer a choice and called it a day. No they are giving us a choice, matter of fact they are not moving away at all. You still can buy the sub with a base plate, they still sell it. So your argument is invalid. Now you have a choice of which one you want, but at the same time they are not going against their values. American made product and a great value. Nuff said about this topic, get over it.

Merica!
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post #2730 of 13058 Old 05-11-2013, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

Right. The XS30 is the worst looking out of the 4 models. You can't imagine a base plate on that box w the plain looking grills? Lets keep it real here.

The idea of quality dual 15" woofers powered by a solid amp in a thick cabinet is the draw..certainly not the design. And yes it's why it's at such a good price point.

Maybe we are talking about putting lipstick on a pig here. But scoffing at the idea of putting a base plate on a plain box based on the look of the other 3 much better looking subs is not far fetched.

Well now it's just one. No matter though. Looks like PSA is moving away from this signature design anyway. But my decision to order the xs30 won't be based on its beautiful box. smile.gif

Keep in mind that the only reason the other three subs had a base plate was because of the downward firing design. Do you think PSA would have ever put base plates on them if they were front firing?
Not likely, and since the XS30 isn't downward firing they obviously never intended to have a base plate on it.

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JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
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JVC RS45
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Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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