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bic f12 or psw505 ?

21K views 70 replies 24 participants last post by  EricST 
#1 ·
It is for my basement ht. About 16 x 16 x 8'.

Music 20% & movies 80 %


Fronts energy c500

Center energy c100

Rears 2 infinity sats + 2 bookshelfs (for now)

Avr Marantz 5005


At the moment they sell for the same price.


Please adise.


TIA
 
#52 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 /forum/post/21274014


Well, whether you agree or not, this, IMHO, is sort of how things happen around here. Since trying to initiate change in an open community like this where members constantly come and go and there are no strict guidelines would be like to trying to herd cats, the best that you can do is make your own recommendations to people.

Not trying to initiate a mass change of the way things work here on AVS. I'm simply trying to point out the flaws in the recommendations found in this particular thread. You wouldn't expect someone to go to a car dealership, with the budget and intentions of buying a Chevy Malibu, or Ford Focus, to take the salesperson's recommendation of a Corvette seriously. Especially if the salesperson doesn't seem to have ever driven either the Malibu or Focus.


I make recommendations about products all the time, and I take other's recommendations seriously when they seem to have experience with the products.
 
#53 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting /forum/post/21274098


Not trying to initiate a mass change of the way things work here on AVS. I'm simply trying to point out the flaws in the recommendations found in this particular thread. You wouldn't expect someone to go to a car dealership, with the budget and intentions of buying a Chevy Malibu, or Ford Focus, to take the salesperson's recommendation of a Corvette seriously. Especially if the salesperson doesn't seem to have ever driven either the Malibu or Focus.

That's not a particularly good analogy. First, this is not a car dealership. No one is selling anything here; just offering opinions. Second, if people were making Corvette type recommendations, they'd be offering Seaton Submersives or JL Fathoms. Third, when (if) you make the upgrade to a 12" ID sub, you'll understand the difference between a sub that is sold as a budget sub that doesn't perform as it should versus ones that do. Unless you have that experience, your perspective is akin to the blind leading the blind.
 
#54 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 /forum/post/21274228


That's not a particularly good analogy. First, this is not a car dealership. No one is selling anything here; just offering opinions. Second, if people were making Corvette type recommendations, they'd be offering Seaton Submersives or JL Fathoms. Third, when (if) you make the upgrade to a 12" ID sub, you'll understand the difference between a sub that is sold as a budget sub that doesn't perform as it should versus ones that do. Unless you have that experience, your perspective is akin to the blind leading the blind.

I knew the word "salesperson" would be the base of your rebuttal. I chose that analogy because there aren't many places to go to for sound advice on buying an average car. What better place to go to then the dealership for information on two cars you're looking into? If there is a better place, then replace the word "dealership" with the name of that place, and the point remains the same.


The Malibu/Corvette ratio would be more closely related to the BIC F12/SB12Plus, or a subwoofer at roughly three or four times the price. Your Bic F12/JL Fathoms would be closer related to a Malibu/Murcielago.


I do understand the difference between a budget sub and the higher priced/higher quality subs available. I've stated that from the beginning. I compared budget subs to much better ones, to understand which budget sub would be the best for me. I'm not necessarily lacking in experience.


A budget subwoofer performs exactly as it was intended to. "Sufficient", is a word that comes to mind, when I think of the general criteron for a budget sub.


Blind leading the blind would be someone who isn't fully qualified, or experienced enough, to give an honest and accurate comparisson between two or more items. Just because you once had a budget subwoofer, and upgrade to a '12" ID sub', doesn't make you experienced with all budget subwoofers.
 
#55 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting /forum/post/21274444


I knew the word "salesperson" would be the base of your rebuttal. I chose that analogy because there aren't many places to go to for sound advice on buying an average car. What better place to go to then the dealership for information on two cars you're looking into? If there is a better place, then replace the word "dealership" with the name of that place, and the point remains the same.


The Malibu/Corvette ratio would be more closely related to the BIC F12/SB12Plus, or a subwoofer at roughly three or four times the price. Your Bic F12/JL Fathoms would be closer related to a Malibu/Murcielago.


I do understand the difference between a budget sub and the higher priced/higher quality subs available. I've stated that from the beginning. I compared budget subs to much better ones, to understand which budget sub would be the best for me. I'm not necessarily lacking in experience.


A budget subwoofer performs exactly as it was intended to. "Sufficient", is a word that comes to mind, when I think of the general criteron for a budget sub.


Blind leading the blind would be someone who isn't fully qualified, or experienced enough, to give an honest and accurate comparisson between two or more items. Just because you once had a budget subwoofer, and upgrade to a '12" ID sub', doesn't make you experienced with all budget subwoofers.

Well, your analogy fails anyway. Sure. If someone wants to talk about the difference between a Malibu and a Corvette, they can talk to their GM dealer, just as someone who wants to discuss the difference between two HSU subs can call them. If someone wants to discuss buying a new Malibu and a Fusion or Mustang GT, they run into the same problem that we have here. Talking to a dealership won't help.


But your analogy still is an issue because with speakers, one should expect to be able to get a fairly linear response across the rated spectrum. This is the frequency response of the BIC PL-200 (the F12 is generally accepted to be no better). And here is the distortion for it. Below 30hz, it can make "sounds" and generates subsonic effects, but does not accurately reproduce them--that's all assuming that the room gain and acoustics actually boost the lower end enough that one can feel and hear them. And this is pretty much how the low budget 12" subs act, as I'm sure you know if you have done your research.


So when people recommend the 12" ID subs, they are trying to recommend a sub that performs as a sub should to best match the full range speakers one will pair them with: a fairly flat response and low levels of distortion in the claimed frequency range (not to mention increased SQ in other ways and greater SPL). Not a 12" sub that essentially fakes the performance at that below 30hz range and may not even be able to supply a useable volume in that range. That's not the same difference as a Malibu and a Corvette. It's more like comparing the weak sound output of a Coby mp3 player to a Sony Walkman mp3 player. Ultra cheap vs. decent (but not top) performance. If you don't get that distinction, then yes. It's the blind leading the blind to object to recommendations people make for better subs beyond an OPs budget.
 
#56 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 /forum/post/21276032


Well, your analogy fails anyway. Sure. If someone wants to talk about the difference between a Malibu and a Corvette, they can talk to their GM dealer, just as someone who wants to discuss the difference between two HSU subs can call them. If someone wants to discuss buying a new Malibu and a Fusion or Mustang GT, they run into the same problem that we have here. Talking to a dealership won't help.


But your analogy still is an issue because with speakers, one should expect to be able to get a fairly linear response across the rated spectrum. This is the frequency response of the BIC PL-200 (the F12 is generally accepted to be no better). And here is the distortion for it. Below 30hz, it can make "sounds" and generates subsonic effects, but does not accurately reproduce them--that's all assuming that the room gain and acoustics actually boost the lower end enough that one can feel and hear them. And this is pretty much how the low budget 12" subs act, as I'm sure you know if you have done your research.


So when people recommend the 12" ID subs, they are trying to recommend a sub that performs as a sub should to best match the full range speakers one will pair them with: a fairly flat response and low levels of distortion in the claimed frequency range (not to mention increased SQ in other ways and greater SPL). Not a 12" sub that essentially fakes the performance at that below 30hz range and may not even be able to supply a useable volume in that range. That's not the same difference as a Malibu and a Corvette. It's more like comparing the weak sound output of a Coby mp3 player to a Sony Walkman mp3 player. Ultra cheap vs. decent (but not top) performance. If you don't get that distinction, then yes. It's the blind leading the blind to object to recommendations people make for better subs beyond an OPs budget.

I think we're spinning our wheels here. No response you can give me will satisfy the initial question at hand. Comparing a decent product with a really good(but not the best) product, should be equivalent across all platforms. Either you truly don't understand the simple analogy I gave, or you are just searching for reasons to disregard it.


I never said I had a problem with recommendations of higher priced subs. I have a problem with unsupported recommendations of higher priced subs, relative to lower priced budget subs. Showing the frequency and distortion response of the F12(pl200), while not showing the response of the higher quality subs recommended, is part of the problem.


Whether you agree or not, it is impossible for anyone to make an educated decision between two items, without being somewhat educated about the two items they're deciding between. And I didn't see any truly helpful, educating, or supported, information about the deficiencies of the subs in question to the recommended(higher priced) subs.
 
#57 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting /forum/post/21276441


I think we're spinning our wheels here. No response you can give me will satisfy the initial question at hand. Comparing a decent product with a really good(but not the best) product, should be equivalent across all platforms. Either you truly don't understand the simple analogy I gave, or you are just searching for reasons to disregard it.


I never said I had a problem with recommendations of higher priced subs. I have a problem with unsupported recommendations of higher priced subs, relative to lower priced budget subs. Showing the frequency and distortion response of the F12(pl200), while not showing the response of the higher quality subs recommended, is part of the problem.


Whether you agree or not, it is impossible for anyone to make an educated decision between two items, without being somewhat educated about the two items they're deciding between. And I didn't see any truly helpful, educating, or supported, information about the deficiencies of the subs in question to the recommended(higher priced) subs.

I agree. I doubt anyone will be able to give you a response you'll be satisfied with.
 
#59 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark17 /forum/post/21238262


At the end I picked up HSU STF-2. Pete was very helpful (their service is SUPERB :)), I should have the unit in 10 days or so. I'll post my initial experience once I get to play with the unit.

Well?
 
#65 ·
Sorry to revive such an old thread, but I figured it was better than starting a new one asking the same question.


I've put together my HT system all but the sub. I'm trying to decide between these two pretty soon. I've done so much reading over the last few days and I feel like I don't know anything more than I did a few days ago. Basically what I'm seeing is that the F-12 is maybe better for home theater use while the Polk is better for music. I'll be using the sub for almost completely movies and TV, and not music, but I'm concerned that the F-12 is going to be too loud and boomy for my use.


See, I won't be doing much music, but I live in an apartment and don't want my neighbors calling the landlord on me all the time. So when I hear something is aimed at movie use, it doesn't really strike me as a pro. I will be mainly keeping the volumes low, so I'm thinking I'd rather have the clarity. But I've also seen people have issues with the Polk's frequency response, which doesn't sound too promising.


I will be pairing this with a Yamaha RX-V671, Pioneer FS52 mains, Pioneer C22 center, and Pioneer BS22 surrounds. Part of the reason I ended up going with this setup rather than a Polk Monitor 60 or 70 setup is that, while the Polk's were clearly stronger and louder (expected for the higher price), they also sounded, to my ears, too overblown in the lows and mids. I valued the more neutral clarity of the Pioneers over the punch of the Polks. The same would hold true for the sub, and it seems like the Polk is a better fit for that.


I'm also interested in the warranty/quality aspect if anyone has any experience there. Part of the reason I'm even in this situation is that I had bought a Klipsch speaker setup with an RPW-10 sub, and the sub went out after two or three days. I returned everything and started over, and that brings me to where I am now. I don't want to go through that again. The BIC has the better warranty, but I'm the kind of person that would just rather not have to use it.


Also, my room is a smallish living room, probably 14x18 or so, but unfortunately it's directly open to the hallway and the dining room (10x12 or so), and there's even a "window" into the kitchen. Basically, the worst setup for a HT ever.


EDIT: Standard 7' ceilings and carpeted floors.
 
#67 ·
either way both are often recommend as entry level budget subs and both have a lot of positive reviews, however due to my experience, i recommend the 505. my expereice with both has led me to like the 505 better. the bic f12 sounds like a one note wonder where as the 505 is more detailed, but neither are "great" subs.
 
#68 ·
 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_2/polk-psw-505-subwoofer-4-2005.html - Ed Mullen review of 505, little output below 30-35 Hz but still may be reasonable for music and some HT situations. “As expected, room gain helped considerably to improve deep extension, with the Polk holding flat to about 25 Hz, and then dropping to –10 dB at 20 Hz.” Polk sub amps have generally been quite reliable.


You can do a search for Archaea's review of the F12.


The 505 and F12 appear to be close enough to each other that there is no clear preference.


In the under $300 category, the BIC PL-200 is considered better than the BIC F12 or Polk PSW-505 according to individuals who have had both at the same time; in the under $400 category, the Hsu STF-2 is considered better than the PL-200 according to individuals who have had the PL-200 STF-2 simultaneously.
 
#69 ·
What about the BIC Venturi V1220 VS the Polk PSW505? I think I'm going to stick to the BIC as I have and like the V1020 but I've also seen some good deals on the 505...
 
#70 ·

I was choosing between PSW505 and SUB-10 or Sub-12. Due to my limited budget, Sub 10/12 low reliability and PSW average reviews I went with F-12. I was not impressed by PSW505 and don't understand why ppl going crazy over this sub. IMHO F-12 great sub for HT. 5 month later I have no complains about F-12
 
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