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post #1 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi everyone I am new to this forum havent posted much but have a quick question. What would be a good subwoofer to get with real punchy clean bass? I currently have an epik legend and I do like it alot, but I'm looking for something that has punchier bass. Thanks for the help ahead of time.

Some info: Room Dimensions = 12x12
Sub will be mainly for rock music.
Budget = up to $700
Appearance = Doesn't really matter.
Time Frame = Will wait as long as needed to get it. Not in a big hurry.
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post #2 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sampson2269 View Post

Hi everyone I am new to this forum havent posted much but have a quick question. What would be a good subwoofer to get with real punchy clean bass? I currently have an epik legend and I do like it alot, but I'm looking for something that has punchier bass. Thanks for the help ahead of time.

Some info: Room Dimensions = 12x12
Sub will be mainly for rock music.
Budget = up to $700
Appearance = Doesn't really matter.
Time Frame = Will wait as long as needed to get it. Not in a big hurry.

For your room, budget and listening habits you should consider looking at Rythmik Audio. Particulary their F12, its a sealed design with "Direct Servo Control", variable tuning and onboard EQ. I own the F12 SE and in my opinion the piano black finish is well worth the extra hundred. Also, Rythmik's customer service is beyond reproach, if they are still out of stock check with Brian for the latest updates on availability.

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post #3 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 09:09 PM
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You may want to skip a lot of the subs around here because none of them will get you the punchy sound you are after. Something you're looking for would be a pro audio type bass bin.

Here is one for example

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...umber=248-6546

Maybe not necessarily this model but something like this. You want 'punch' then you'll need serious midbass and that's what these kinds of bass products provide.

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post #4 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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What about epik empire or ELEMENTAL DESIGNS A7s-450?
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Originally Posted by khoncrete View Post

For your room, budget and listening habits you should consider looking at Rythmik Audio. Particulary their F12, its a sealed design with "Direct Servo Control", variable tuning and onboard EQ. I own the F12 SE and in my opinion the piano black finish is well worth the extra hundred. Also, Rythmik's customer service is beyond reproach, if they are still out of stock check with Brian for the latest updates on availability.

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post #5 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok ill take a look at these, how clean is the bass on these subs? Do you know of one that really stands out from the croud?
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

You may want to skip a lot of the subs around here because none of them will get you the punchy sound you are after. Something you're looking for would be a pro audio type bass bin.

Here is one for example

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...umber=248-6546

Maybe not necessarily this model but something like this. You want 'punch' then you'll need serious midbass and that's what these kinds of bass products provide.

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post #6 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 09:33 PM
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The Audioholics review of the X-Ref stated it was a very clean sub with no distortion whatsoever. They said no matter how hard they tried, they could not get it to lose composure. I have the X-Ref 12 and I can attest. It is extremely punchy, clean and accurate. I have yet to hear any type of distortion come out of her mouth. It also earned their Bassaholic Award for small rooms which I would classify your room as. They reviewed the 10inch but there is also a 12 inch that cost about $600 shipped. I can't recommend this sub enough for music applications.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...ofers/x-ref-10
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post #7 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the help gives me some ideas, Has anyone seen or heard one of these?

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm
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post #8 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sampson2269 View Post

Hi everyone I am new to this forum havent posted much but have a quick question. What would be a good subwoofer to get with real punchy clean bass? I currently have an epik legend and I do like it alot, but I'm looking for something that has punchier bass. Thanks for the help ahead of time.

Some info: Room Dimensions = 12x12
Sub will be mainly for rock music.
Budget = up to $700
Appearance = Doesn't really matter.
Time Frame = Will wait as long as needed to get it. Not in a big hurry.

If you're lacking punch, it probably has nothing to do with any shortcoming of your current sub. It much more likely has to do with frequency response anomolies in your square room. It may also be related to problems with phase and/or using a less-than-ideal crossover frequency. Before wasting money by swapping out subs, first find out exactly where your problem lies. You need to measure the frequency response at your seating position. See where it deviates from flat and then figure out the appropriate solution. Without doing that, you are shooting in the dark. It's like trying to diagnose a medical problem without tests or x-rays.
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post #9 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

If you're lacking punch, it probably has nothing to do with any shortcoming of your current sub. It much more likely has to do with frequency response anomolies in your square room. It may also be related to problems with phase and/or using a less-than-ideal crossover frequency. Before wasting money by swapping out subs, first find out exactly where your problem lies. You need to measure the frequency response at your seating position. See where it deviates from flat and then figure out the appropriate solution. Without doing that, you are shooting in the dark. It's like trying to diagnose a medical problem without tests or x-rays.


People like mojomike can save you a lot of money and frustration.
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post #10 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post


If you're lacking punch, it probably has nothing to do with any shortcoming of your current sub. It much more likely has to do with frequency response anomolies in your square room. It may also be related to problems with phase and/or using a less-than-ideal crossover frequency. Before wasting money by swapping out subs, first find out exactly where your problem lies. You need to measure the frequency response at your seating position. See where it deviates from flat and then figure out the appropriate solution. Without doing that, you are shooting in the dark. It's like trying to diagnose a medical problem without tests or x-rays.

+1! I have a square room and had very large nulls in the midbass region. It would sound really good from 20-about 45 hz and then drop off before making a comeback around 65hz. Definitely worth trying some measurements and maybe trying different subwoofer placement options. You probably won't enjoy spending $700 bucks to find out you still have a large null where your midbass should be. FYI...I was able to tame most of the null by using multiple subs, and placement of the subs.
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post #11 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Some pictures of my current setup to help give an idea of what im using and dealing with.
Some Specs,
Hrt Music Streamer II +, & Nuforce Icon HDP
Audio Engine A5+
October 2010 27" Imac.




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post #12 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

If you're lacking punch, it probably has nothing to do with any shortcoming of your current sub. It much more likely has to do with frequency response anomolies in your square room. It may also be related to problems with phase and/or using a less-than-ideal crossover frequency. Before wasting money by swapping out subs, first find out exactly where your problem lies. You need to measure the frequency response at your seating position. See where it deviates from flat and then figure out the appropriate solution. Without doing that, you are shooting in the dark. It's like trying to diagnose a medical problem without tests or x-rays.

Aren't the Epik subs known for midbass slam? If so, it seems like the Legend ought to be able to be "punchy." If room acoustics are at fault and can't be easily cured with a different placement, would an EQ be a cheaper and a more guaranteed solution, mojomike, than buying another sub?

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post #13 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I think im going to purchase this sub, http://emotiva.com/xref_sub12.shtm since it has dsp preamp, because I will running my sub off of my audioengine a5's. That might be why the legend isn't punchy enough.
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post #14 of 66 Old 11-14-2011, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


Aren't the Epik subs known for midbass slam? If so, it seems like the Legend ought to be able to be "punchy." If room acoustics are at fault and can't be easily cured with a different placement, would an EQ be a cheaper and a more guaranteed solution, mojomike, than buying another sub?

I agreed with cel4145 and mojomike. Epik subs (Legend and Empire) are very well known as "kings of midbass slam subs for its price". According to the picture the room is not too big, so the Legend should performs excellent in your room. I have an Xref12 and wish to try to hear an Epik Empire in my 16x15 room. The Xref in my room sounds pretty awesome, very clean, tight and punchy bass and the only way to get that was ... was..... Sub placement! My sub on the floor facing to the listening positions sounds pretty good, but lacks something I cant described so, when I raised the sub about 2 feet from floor (Im using my Bic PL200 as a stand for the xref ) and facing to the wall about 20" away from wall the results was AMAZING!!!!

Give it a try with your legend before buying any other sub. Try it. Stack your legend, and give it more space between the wall and the sub. According to the picture seems its about less that 6 inches apart from wall. Im not an expert but I recommend to you to move it at least 12" - 16" away from wall.

Another recommendation is why dont you try to get an AVR. Im pretty sure you can get an cheap Onkyo or Yamaha with HDMI connectors and sup preouts for less than $250.
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post #15 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javygonx View Post


I agreed with cel4145 and mojomike. Epik subs (Legend and Empire) are very well known and "kings of midbass slam subs for its price". According to the picture the room is not too big, so the Legend should performs excellent in your room. I have an Xref12 and wish to try to hear an Epik Empire in my 16x15 room. The Xref in my room sounds pretty awesome, very clean, tight and punchy bass and the only way to get that was ... was..... Sub placement! My sub on the floor facing to the listening positions sounds pretty good, but lacks something I cant described so, when I raised the sub about 2 feet from floor (Im using my Bic PL200 as a stand for the xref ) and facing to the wall about 20" away from wall the results was AMAZING!!!!

Give it a try with your legend before buying any other sub. Try it. Stack your legend, and give it more space between the wall and the sub. According to the picture seems its about less that 6 inches apart from wall. Im not an expert but I recommend to you to move it at least 12" - 16" away from wall.

Another recommendation is why dont you try to get an AVR. Im pretty sure you can get an cheap Onkyo or Yamaha with HDMI connectors and sup preouts for less than $250.

Damn man. You just gave me a great idea. The X-Ref 12 that I have doing near field duty next to my couch, I am going to take it and put it on top of the end table between both couches which will put it 3 feet off the ground and 2 feet from the side wall. I guess this is another plus of having a small sealed sub. I cant wait to get home and try it. Will let you know what I think.
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post #16 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
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Damn man. You just gave me a great idea. .

Great!, and btw I was scared if my sub moves and falls but no way. I crank it up and that thing does not moves. I watch it everytime to make sure if it moves, but its not. So its pretty safe with the rubber feets. Post pics before and after
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post #17 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 01:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool thanks for the advise ill give it a try today and let you know what happens.
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post #18 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Aren't the Epik subs known for midbass slam? If so, it seems like the Legend ought to be able to be "punchy." If room acoustics are at fault and can't be easily cured with a different placement, would an EQ be a cheaper and a more guaranteed solution, mojomike, than buying another sub?

Those are my thoughts exactly. It's not the sub. It's a. combo of the environment and the setup.
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post #19 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Those are my thoughts exactly. It's not the sub. It's a. combo of the environment and the setup.

You're forgetting the emotiva's are magical they can turn bass nulls into glorious bass that will raise from the dead three days later. Gets yours while you still can!

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post #20 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 06:04 AM
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Wow! Sign me up!
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post #21 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I went ahead and ordered the usp-1 this should help my problem, along with placement of the sub. And should work nicely with the dac and setup i currently have. What do you think mike?
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post #22 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 06:17 AM
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Erm yeah... the epiks are known for their midbass so them not having a punchy sound is unusual. You should bring the sub a couple inches from that wall for starters so you are getting use out of both drivers. Small square rooms have terrible FR's usually unless you land your sub in the sweet spot from the get go, do the sub crawl. Put sub in chair as close to your ear level as you can, then crawl around the room while something bassy is playing and note where the output is strongest, this is the subs new home.

After that is done get a spl meter & rew and check to see whats going on with phase and your overall FR. If you opt not to go that route just adjust the phase until you note the strongest output. Tests are great but ultimately your ear is the judge. I calibrate my system flat then adjust to taste afterwards.


Edit: *doh* I probably would have just used a much cheaper software eq since it is hooked up to the PC. It'll definitely help you overcome the room at any rate.
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post #23 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Ya I'm definitely going to do some sub placement tests today. But it also just seemed like back when I had my 5.1 setup, and my onkyo receiver, the sub had alot more power using the lfe port. So thats why I ordered the usp-1.
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post #24 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 06:34 AM
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Get a simple Radio Shack SPL meter and download free REW software from here:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/

There is a bit of a learning curve involved, but you then be able to graph your bass response. If you lack punch, look for a problem in the 50-120 hz range. Try to correct the problem by moving the sub around, adjusting the crossover, and adjusting the phase. After you have gotten the best result with those changes, then resort to eq if necessary.
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post #25 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so I did the sub crawl and changed the phase and crossover. Moved sub all over the place and it definitely improved some. I will also give an update once I get my preamp. That being said, and I know I sound very picky here but it just wasn't punching like I wanted, until I hooked up my polk psw505 along with the epik, And put the polk on top of the epik legend.
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post #26 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 06:20 PM
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Put the Epik on top of the Polk!.. and try again. I cant hardly believe that your Legend is not punching enough... Set crossover at 80Hz if not; try it at 100hz. As soon as you add your receiver; it should be able to improve...
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post #27 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok i'll try this, thanks for all your help guys and thank you for being patient with me and not getting annoyed.
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post #28 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 09:59 PM
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Try turning it up, sounds like you would prefer a house curve. Flat is boring imo.
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post #29 of 66 Old 11-15-2011, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishpoke View Post

Try turning it up, sounds like you would prefer a house curve. Flat is boring imo.

A typical house curve which involves a rising amplitude as you get deeper is not punchy sounding. "Punch" comes from the area between about 50 to 120hz. Think of the sound of a kick drum. This area is where the fundamentals of a kick drum lies. A house curve will tend to give you more rumble, but won't help the punchiness very much.
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post #30 of 66 Old 11-16-2011, 07:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sampson2269 View Post

Hi everyone I am new to this forum havent posted much but have a quick question. What would be a good subwoofer to get with real punchy clean bass? I currently have an epik legend and I do like it alot, but I'm looking for something that has punchier bass. Thanks for the help ahead of time.

Some info: Room Dimensions = 12x12
Sub will be mainly for rock music.
Budget = up to $700
Appearance = Doesn't really matter.
Time Frame = Will wait as long as needed to get it. Not in a big hurry.

X-Ref 12 for any music.
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