Decent Sub, Very Low Price... - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 80 Old 08-02-2012, 07:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 6,496
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 685 Post(s)
Liked: 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

To Archaea 1) You can't be serious. Just look at the graphs between the two...there is no way you can say the 12D goes lower. Look carefully at the PL-200 graph. Both subs have a slight peak around 28hz. But between 28hz to 22hz the 200 is down about 4db, the 12D is down about twice that...and continues to drop steeply compared to the smooth 15hz to 22hz low end of the 200. So everything I said is correct. The problem area on the 200 is that from 55hz to 80hz it is about 5db louder than it should be compared to the +/-2 or 3db of its fairly flat low end (between 22hz - 55hz). Capricorn Kid and others have commented that when pushed the 12D will distort and have port noise while the 200 is still playing comfortably. So I stand by my statement the 200 will play a little louder and lower, but the 12d has a flatter overall FR. But really that is splitting hairs. But if your goal is just to refute everything everyone has to say rather than giving people good advice based on the data at hand, go right ahead and tell me how wrong I am and the graphs everyone can now look at are also wrong. The guy who has both speakers is wrong. Everyone is wrong but you. There is just not much separating the two subs except the things I mentioned unless you want to make it about your ego and you just can't admit you were not correct in all your assumptions.


I'm quite serious.

The very fact you state the PL-200 is smoother/flatter between 15-22hz and so it is the sub that is lower sort of sums up the whole realm of your knowledge level with subwoofers. Which is to say you are still quite green.

15-22hz is WELL below the port tune of both subs, and frankly is immaterial. As the sub system's SPL continues to climb the frequencies in that range will not climb in equity. Even if we were talking about sealed subs here, and that little difference was to be genuinely discussed the dB level at which Capricorn Kid measured do not allow for a proper comparison. That little left most tail of the graph can be heavily influenced by the noise floor of Capricorn's house. If the AC kicked on during that measurement, or a truck drove by outside either could easily account for a little dB or two difference in the high 60dB range. If you've ever used live measuring equipment you'll note that that little tail flips around quite a bit until you raise the SPL levels well above the noise floor in the room. But as I mentioned a moment ago this point is immaterial because it is below the port tune of either sub, and isn't something you can boost, or EQ, or even want to have louder because frequencies produced below port tune are loaded with distortion on a ported subwoofer.

The only reason the PL200 might be louder is that it has a wicked natural peak at 50hz and so becomes louder at one frequency -- quite the opposite of what most enthusiasts are aiming for. We do have some max SPL measurements on both subs from different sources. Sound and Vision states the Klipsch RW-12D hit 115dB at 50hz. Ricci's measurements on data-bass states the 50hz max spl was 110.4dB on the PL200. I don't know how different the SPLs would be if Ricci measured the RW-12D, but I can guess that it wouldn't be a run away spl competition in favor of the PL200. No good eh? Too different measurements so it means nothing. Okay --- I can also once again use data correlation in identifying that both reviewers have measured the Outlaw LFM-1-EX. Let's use that as common data point. The Sound and Vision review said the max output they measured was 109dB at 32hz on the Klipsch RW-12D, while Rici states that the max SPL he reached was 110.7dB at 32hz on the PL200. So I'm going to go ahead and make another educated guess based on correlated data set to say the PL200 is a few dB less powerful than the RW-12D at it's peak. This fact matters more than just the few dB it represents because the pl200 peak clearly stands alone while the Rw-12d peak is more in line with the rest of its frequency response capability. Let's put this in perspective. Compare the PL200 to the Outlaw LFM-1-EX sub on the data-bass site. The RW-12D isn't as good as the outlaw, but its in the same generic class, and the RW-12D didn't finish last place in the $700 mid priced shootout against the likes of well respected brands like SVS, Velodyne, HSU, and Outlaw (all about $700 well respected internet direct subs). That should pretty much close this discussion.

You said we have data on hand to see on which we can base advice. I've done so accurately. You are misinterrpreting the data. Since we are at a point that data has been posted that clearly proves which sub is easily the stronger candidate for the $300 budget buyer and you still dismiss the data, or are misinterpreting it, I'll now drop out of this conversation. There really is not much more I can say. The data is clear, and it's not pointing towards the conclusions you have reached.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 80 Old 08-02-2012, 08:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 6,496
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 685 Post(s)
Liked: 848
There are two threads going on with this same topic. I'm not sure how that happened, but here is the second. I think audiophile2k and I've crossed wires to some degree and posted rebuttals in one or the other of these two threads that have relevance to discussions held in the other thread, but for my part I'm going to try to walk away from this discussion at this point. I feel I've said all I can on this matter. I'm truly glad you are enjoying your setup Audiophile2k and that you feel enough satisfaction with it to provide it a recommendation.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1364182/list-of-budget-subwoofers-300-and-less/300_20

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is offline  
post #63 of 80 Old 08-02-2012, 08:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,738
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 353 Post(s)
Liked: 501
Man, I got confused with the two threads and I posted this response in the other one which came out of nowhere.

OK, I guess you missed what I said. I will make it simple based only on the two in room graphs. The Klipsch -6 dB point is around(SMS does not have good resolution) 21-22 dBs and the PL-200 is around 28-30dBs. This alone makes the Klipsch go lower in his room. I know you are looking at that pretty nice flatter graph from 15-20hz but that is way down compared to 30hz. It won't be felt at all unless you crank the sub and at that point it will be all distortion. Over 10% distortion sounds awful and one would notice. The PL-200 has over 10% THD under 25hz with a 95 dB sweep outside so inside it will get a little better. When I said the Klipsch plays louder what I meant is that with those graphs the Klipsch at 20hz was louder than the PL-200 with the same sweep.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
MKtheater is offline  
post #64 of 80 Old 08-04-2012, 01:49 AM
Senior Member
 
Audiophile2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
MK, the subs were NOT volume leveled at the same spot, as is evident in the 12D have greater output across the board, therefor you cannot use arbitrary -Xdb compared to a reference which does exist. All you can do is what I did, and compare -Xdb in reference to each subs own peaks.
Audiophile2k is offline  
post #65 of 80 Old 08-04-2012, 02:03 AM
Senior Member
 
Audiophile2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post

This is not true according to what I read. He said that the RW-12D made port noise at really low frequencies and the PL-200 simply quit trying to produce the sounds. So it wasn't playing comfortably, it just wasn't playing at all because of the HPF. Might be considered a plus that it stops trying when the material gets too low, but it doesn't mean it was playing lower and louder than the RW-12D.

First of all the graphs show if either sub has a HPF it is more likely the 12D because of its steep drop off compared to the relative smooth roll off in the deep bass of the 200. Second, you are quoting Archea in one of his attempt to contradict everything everyone but him says, NOT Capricorn Kid. here are some of Capricorn Kid's quotes on the subject.

"It made me think that maybe the PL-200s are able to handle stronger deeper effects than the Klipsch."

"I played the scene over and over again and I seemed the PL-200 was not working as hard as the Klipsch. "

"There is a difference in the lower end response. The mic was at the main listening seat during these measurments. The PL-200s seem to have a smoother roll off than the RW12ds. Could this be the reason the Klipsch were spitting out port noise during that scene in War Horse and the PL-200s showed no signs of stress?"
Audiophile2k is offline  
post #66 of 80 Old 08-04-2012, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mojomike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 6,966
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

First of all the graphs show if either sub has a HPF it is more likely the 12D because of its steep drop off compared to the relative smooth roll off in the deep bass of the 200. Second, you are quoting Archea in one of his attempt to contradict everything everyone but him says, NOT Capricorn Kid. here are some of Capricorn Kid's quotes on the subject.
"It made me think that maybe the PL-200s are able to handle stronger deeper effects than the Klipsch."
"I played the scene over and over again and I seemed the PL-200 was not working as hard as the Klipsch. "
"There is a difference in the lower end response. The mic was at the main listening seat during these measurments. The PL-200s seem to have a smoother roll off than the RW12ds. Could this be the reason the Klipsch were spitting out port noise during that scene in War Horse and the PL-200s showed no signs of stress?"
The ground-plane slope tells everything. A ported sub without a filter has a predictable 18db/octave rolloff under tuning. We see this from about 45hz down to about 25hz. There the slope changes and gets steeper. There is likely a HPF employed at about 25hz.

The problem with the much of the output of the sub below tuning is that most of what is audible is mostly harmonic distortion. The sharp rise in the distortion graph below the 45hz tuning point shows this. This means that what you are hearing when you feed a 25hz signal is instead a 50hz harmonic distortion product. The ground-plane tests show that the PL200 cannot reproduce deep bass at any useful levels unless you are willing to accept harmonic distortion in place of clean output.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post


mojomike is offline  
post #67 of 80 Old 08-04-2012, 10:58 AM
Senior Member
 
Audiophile2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Please refer to the in room graphs from Capricorn Kid. They give you an apple to apple comparison of the two speakers in question. They more accurately represent what a typical user will see compared to the outdoor ground plane charts from Ricci you keep referring to. (and using to jump to some incorrect conclusions) It is NOT tuned to 45hz, it is more likely 30hz. Even Ricci's data showed it capable of CLEAN output up to 96.2db @ 25hz in their sub database, which is a direct contradiction of what you keep posting. That number is greater than several of the subs they have tested which cost several times as much, so lets keep this in the perspective of a sub that cost $280. He even complimented the sub on its low distortion. Of course it can't play at reference level at 20hz, but neither can any of the subs that cost $600 or less. You should just go to that database comparison chart between all the subs they have measured to get a true view of how it performs. Individual measurements can be useful, but certainly don't present the whole picture. http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/subwoofer-measurement-data
Audiophile2k is offline  
post #68 of 80 Old 08-05-2012, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mojomike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 6,966
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
There is no such thing as a "typical" user or a "typical" room. Users have all different needs and wants and just about every room has it's own unique sonic signatures. That is why the ground-plane tests are used as a benchmark. Once one understands the transfer functions of their own particular room, it's easy to predict from the ground plane data how a sub will perform in their room.

If you wish to consider 96.2 db with 23.70% distortion acceptable performance, that's your prerogative, but you're setting your standards kind of low. Personally it would never find it's way into my system.

As far as port tuning goes, I would not trust the 30hz manufacturer specs on this. There is no eveidence to support it. I know you choose to ignore the data, but there are also the comments form Ricci in his write-up.

"As can be seen this sub exhibits a peaky and humped response centered at 50hz. Part of this is probably due to inductance in the driver motor and some is likely from the relatively high port tuning and overall system alignment. This may even be partly intentional on the part of the designer to get extra output from modest components in the very heavily utilized 40-63hz range. Many times a peaky response will even sound better to some people as it appears louder and more powerful at first listen."

"The unit also is tuned rather high and rolls off quickly below 35 or 40hz so there is not a lot of deep bass extension."

"Below 35hz the THD skyrockets as the driver unloads below the enclosure tuning. This sub is simply not designed for high level <30hz bass."

Of course, this is all in the context of this being a budget $250 sub. However, the point is that a sub such as the Klipsch that used to be a $700+ sub which is sharply discounted to $300 is going to outperform the PL200 in output and depth if properly set up.
mojomike is offline  
post #69 of 80 Old 08-11-2012, 04:47 AM
Member
 
emr25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 174
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 21
The Klipsch RW-12D $299.99 sale is back on Newegg today and tomorrow only (ends 8/12).

I might pull the trigger, haven't decided yet though.

Video - Panasonic VT50 55" | Panasonic BDT320
AVR - Denon X4000 | Sherbourn PA 7-350
Speakers - JTR Noesis 228HT | DIY Sound Group Volt V10 | JTR Captivator S2
emr25 is offline  
post #70 of 80 Old 08-11-2012, 08:39 AM
Advanced Member
 
mgrotel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 32
ah! do i really need two of these or just stick with one?
mgrotel is offline  
post #71 of 80 Old 08-11-2012, 08:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 6,496
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 685 Post(s)
Liked: 848
depending on your room and seating position you might get by with one, but for most rooms two will be an improvement. Two will also give you more volume capability and smoother frequency response across the room.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is offline  
post #72 of 80 Old 08-11-2012, 08:44 AM
Advanced Member
 
mgrotel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 32
i think ill just stick with one for now. the pioneers i have will add to the bass and this sale comes around often enough
mgrotel is offline  
post #73 of 80 Old 08-11-2012, 09:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 6,496
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 685 Post(s)
Liked: 848
what pioneers?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is offline  
post #74 of 80 Old 08-11-2012, 09:56 AM
Advanced Member
 
mgrotel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 32
fs-51s, they wont add a lot but a little i would think, obviously nothing too low though
mgrotel is offline  
post #75 of 80 Old 08-11-2012, 10:51 AM
Member
 
gh0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
for those who owns Klipsch RW-12D, does it support 220-240 voltage? If not, is there an easy way to modify it to enable 220v? I know that some BIC subwoofers allow you to enable 220v input.

The product info lists "EXPORT VOLTAGE: 220 VAC 50/60H", not sure if it is only available on export version, or there is a simple switch inside the sub that allows us to modify it to 220v.

thanks!
gh0001 is offline  
post #76 of 80 Old 09-01-2012, 01:46 AM
Newbie
 
tankbulldog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am not an audiophile but do like good sound. I do have a few extra bucks to spend on some higher quality things but am always looking for the best bang for the buck. I am running a Denon AVR2112CI, Pioneer FS-51 LR, up front, SP-C21 center, BS-21 LR for the rears and a BIC PL-200 subwoofer and i am very happy with my set up every time I play a movie.( It does put a smile on my face) Down stairs I am Putting the Almost the same set up together. I am using the new updated Pioneers and i just purchased the Klipsch RW-12D for the sub. ($300.00 at new egg) and a Denon AVR 1612. This set up is costing me $800.00. In my opinion you can get some very good equipment for a very good price. I will chime in and let you know how the BIC PL-200 compares with the Klipsch RW-12D.
tankbulldog is offline  
post #77 of 80 Old 10-06-2012, 09:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
mgrotel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Rw12d on sale at new egg for 280$ for 2 days!!!
mgrotel is offline  
post #78 of 80 Old 10-06-2012, 09:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BornSlippyZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cincy, OH
Posts: 1,725
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 179 Post(s)
Liked: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

Rw12d on sale at new egg for 280$ for 2 days!!!
Best deal on this sub, and best sub for the $.

October HorrorFest Participant
BornSlippyZ is offline  
post #79 of 80 Old 10-06-2012, 09:45 AM
Member
 
allen9917's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So $280 is the historical low for this sub? I wasn debating between the RW-12D or Jamo SUB 650 but seems the klipsch is the better one?
allen9917 is offline  
post #80 of 80 Old 10-06-2012, 10:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
mgrotel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 32
from my research, jamo 650 is a tad flatter but the klipsch will play louder. the lowest i have ever seen the 12d before this is 300, 280 is a steal imo. i am so close to buying a second one.
mgrotel is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off