Paradigm Cinema 220's & ADP-190's. What sub matches best ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Folks,

I hope I won't violate AVS forum protocol's with cross linking to another thread.

I started a thread under speakers originally, but I think it's time to bring it over onto the subwoofer forum area.

Check out the "Neutral 5.1 surround speakers, $750 budget, large complex room ... help!" forum thread under the audio-> speakers forum to get the necessary background on my question. I apologize, but I can't post a direct link to it as I'm new to the AVS forum and they prevent this to avoid spammers.

Basic summary for those that don't want to follow the link:
I have decided to buy 3 Paradigm Cinema 220's for left, center, front and 2 Cinema ADP190's for rear surround speakers paired with an older Pioneer Elite VSX-95.

I've already blown my speaker budget with these purchases, so I'm challenged on the subwoofer front. What should I consider pairing with the speakers above ? I have a large room to deal with (20' x 35' x 10' high ceilings, not including the kitchen area/volume).

What would be the best choice under $300-400 ? If I increased the budget to $400-$600, what options would I have ? Am willing to consider used sub's to increase the odds I can get a powerful enough sub to handle the large room.

- Steven
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post #2 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scbartling View Post

Hi Folks,

I hope I won't violate AVS forum protocol's with cross linking to another thread.

I started a thread under speakers originally, but I think it's time to bring it over onto the subwoofer forum area.

Check out the "Neutral 5.1 surround speakers, $750 budget, large complex room ... help!" forum thread under the audio-> speakers forum to get the necessary background on my question. I apologize, but I can't post a direct link to it as I'm new to the AVS forum and they prevent this to avoid spammers.

Basic summary for those that don't want to follow the link:
I have decided to buy 3 Paradigm Cinema 220's for left, center, front and 2 Cinema ADP190's for rear surround speakers paired with an older Pioneer Elite VSX-95.

I've already blown my speaker budget with these purchases, so I'm challenged on the subwoofer front. What should I consider pairing with the speakers above ? I have a large room to deal with (20' x 35' x 10' high ceilings, not including the kitchen area/volume).

What would be the best choice under $300-400 ? If I increased the budget to $400-$600, what options would I have ? Am willing to consider used sub's to increase the odds I can get a powerful enough sub to handle the large room.

- Steven

Most importantly you need a subwoofer that easily reaches 150 Hz as your LCR are only rated to 115Hz, and your sub needs to go higher than 115Hz. Given your room a couple subs from BIC may be the way to go. Pair of Polk 505 may be good for you also.

Others will follow with more specific recommendations.
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post #3 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Good point. I hadn't considered the upper frequency range coverage.

That will generate an interesting tug of war. Need high power output for a large room. That usually implies a larger speaker size. But, larger speakers usually have more rolloff in the higher frequencies.

I'll have to start paying more attention to the frequency response.

- Steven
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post #4 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 01:02 PM
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As an Outlaw LFM-1 EX owner, I recommend you look at one of them. For Black Friday/Cyber Monday, they are $650 shipped + free wireless setup (which you could sell on ebay for $50). Here's a recent review

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...fm-1-ex-review

Or, go with two BIC PL-200s, listed at $249 each for Black Friday (check if the code is still good). Locate one near your listening position.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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post #5 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scbartling View Post

Good point. I hadn't considered the upper frequency range coverage.

That will generate an interesting tug of war. Need high power output for a large room. That usually implies a larger speaker size. But, larger speakers usually have more rolloff in the higher frequencies.

I'll have to start paying more attention to the frequency response.

- Steven

12 and 15 inch drivers generally don't have problem playing up to 300-400Hz, however, some specific subs aren't designed to play flat above ~80Hz. Those are the ones you need to avoid. This shouldn't present much of a problem, lots of people have small mains and need subs that can play well at frequencies over 100Hz.
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post #6 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I'll check out the outlaw.

If we are playing around in the $600 space, wouldn't the SVS PB-12NSD and HSU VTF-3 Mk4 come into the equation ? I haven't heard any of these in person, how do they compare to the outlaw ?

I'll look at the cheaper subs you mentioned as well.

- Steven
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post #7 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I just realized that my floorplan will only allow 1 subwoofer, so the dual sub suggestion won't work.

In the lower price range of $300 - 400, are any of the Paradigm subs worth considering ? Ditto for the higher range of $400 - 600
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post #8 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 01:24 PM
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If you could afford it, I'd go with the PB-12NSD over the EX and the VTF3.4, given your space. It has more output. In the discussion forum post for that EX review (a couple of pages in), they talk about how the PB-12NSD has output equivalent to that of the HSU VTF-15h.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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post #9 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks cel4145. The PB-12NSD is about $769 plus shipping. A bit above my upper range in the spending category.

Any comments on the baby brother to the PB-12NSD ? I.e. the SB-12NSD ? It's $679 plus shipping. That's about the same $$ as the Outlaw LFM-1 EX.

Also, how do the SVS subs mentioned above compare to the Paradigm DSP series subs ? I.e. DSP-3100 and DSP-3200. They should be in the same ballpark price range.

Just to add to the mix, there is the Epik Legend for $499. The Epik is a different breed however as all of the SVS PB-12NSD, SB-12NSD and Paradigm DSP-3100, DSP-3200 subwoofers use DSP's for the crossover/filter circuitry (probably contributing to a flatter response overall).

Steven
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post #10 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scbartling View Post

Thanks cel4145. The PB-12NSD is about $769 plus shipping. A bit above my upper range in the spending category.

Any comments on the baby brother to the PB-12NSD ? I.e. the SB-12NSD ? It's $679 plus shipping. That's about the same $$ as the Outlaw LFM-1 EX.

Also, how do the SVS subs mentioned above compare to the Paradigm DSP series subs ? I.e. DSP-3100 and DSP-3200. They should be in the same ballpark price range.

Just to add to the mix, there is the Epik Legend for $499. The Epik is a different breed however as all of the SVS PB-12NSD, SB-12NSD and Paradigm DSP-3100, DSP-3200 subwoofers use DSP's for the crossover/filter circuitry (probably contributing to a flatter response overall).

Steven

If you decide not to do dual subs, you will need a prolific performer. The SB-12 NSD isn't made for a space the size of yours, just forget it.

Save up till you can afford the SVS PB-12NSD, it's a keeper
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post #11 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Appreciate the comments spyboy.

What about the Paradigm DSP-3200 vs the SVS-PB12NSD ?

Spec's seem similar, but SVS seems to be a higher quality sub for at least a $100 less ??? I haven't seen one of these so it's hard for me to tell. Any direct experience with these ?

- Steven
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post #12 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

If you decide not to do dual subs, you will need a prolific performer. The SB-12 NSD isn't made for a space the size of yours, just forget it.

Save up till you can afford the SVS PB-12NSD, it's a keeper

+1

For that size space, you definitely are better off going with a high output 12" ported sub. The small, sealed SB-12 NSD would get lost trying to produce volume in your room.

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post #13 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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It's possible that I could fit two subwoofers next to each other in the space I have available.

But ... wouldn't a single, high quality subwoofer be a better choice than two lesser quality subs at the same total price ?

Sorry if this is a newbie question, but I am relatively inexperienced with subwoofers.

-Steven
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post #14 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 08:13 PM
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Yes. I would get one excellent 12" sub. I run an Outlaw EX in 6,000 cubic feet. While it will never pressurize the room, it does have bass I can feel at the listening position 11ft away. I will likely add another sub later.

By buying one good sub now, you would give yourself the option of also adding another sub at a different time.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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post #15 of 20 Old 11-26-2011, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scbartling View Post

It's possible that I could fit two subwoofers next to each other in the space I have available.

But ... wouldn't a single, high quality subwoofer be a better choice than two lesser quality subs at the same total price ?

Sorry if this is a newbie question, but I am relatively inexperienced with subwoofers.

-Steven

Several members have purchased less expensive subs from Emotiva. It's too bad that the Ultra 12 @$329 is sold out. A pair of them could make for a satisfactory experience.

Last I checked the closeout subwoofer of the week is the Klipsch RW-12D for $300, from NewEgg. A number of members have already bought theirs. Pretty good for HT but slightly underwhelming with demanding music.

The debate about multiple lesser subs versus a single higher performer is never ending.
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post #16 of 20 Old 11-27-2011, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll check out the Klipsch RW-12D.

What are your thoughts on the SVS PD-12NSD vs the Emotiva X-Ref 12 DSP ?

- Steven
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post #17 of 20 Old 11-27-2011, 09:51 AM
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Here is frequency response graph provided by Emotiva

http://emotiva.com/images/xref_sub12/xref12_ar1.jpg

The X-Ref 12 falls off rapidly from 30hz.

Compare that to the PB12-NSD

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/fil.../svs_graph.jpg

The PB12-NSD is flat to 20hz.

Many people feel that 20hz to 30hz response is important for blu-ray/dvd.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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post #18 of 20 Old 11-27-2011, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Here is frequency response graph provided by Emotiva

http://emotiva.com/images/xref_sub12/xref12_ar1.jpg

The X-Ref 12 falls off rapidly from 30hz.

Compare that to the PB12-NSD

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/fil.../svs_graph.jpg

The PB12-NSD is flat to 20hz.

Many people feel that 20hz to 30hz response is important for blu-ray/dvd.

Manufacturers always post totally accurate numbers on their web sites . Several members have their hopes pinned on the dual EQ's on the X-Ref, to bring up the bottom end.

Josh Ricci is due to release his test of the Emotiva Ref-12 for Audioholics sometime in December.

One thing we know for sure is that the Emotiva simply can't match the PB-12NSD at 20Hz. Even so, some members have found that they have no complaints about using the X-Ref 12 for HT.

At the moment I have to agree with cel4145 that the PB-12 makes for a better blu-ray/DVD HT experience than the X-Ref 12.
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post #19 of 20 Old 11-27-2011, 10:46 AM
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Manufacturers always post totally accurate numbers on their web sites .

No doubt. But they might be better than S&V's results for the PB12-NSD (discussion starts about 12 posts in).

LOL

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post #20 of 20 Old 11-27-2011, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

No doubt. But they might be better than S&V's results for the PB12-NSD (discussion starts about 12 posts in).

LOL

As far as I'm concerned Sound&Vision lost a lot of ground when they stopped using Tom Nousaine to test subwoofers, rather than the current 3-ring circus overseen by Brent Butterworth, who comes across as a performer for Ringling Brothers. All in my humble opinion, of course.
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