The great sub hunt: PB-12NSD, VTF-3 MK 4, FV12, LFM-1 EX, vs budget buy RW-12d - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 138 Old 11-27-2011, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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The subject says it all.

Newegg has the Klipsch RW-12d for $299.

I have a large room (35' x 23' x 10' + large kitchen) in which I'm redoing the audio/video setup. I listen to movies 70% of the time, music 30% of the time.

Like most folks, it did not take me long to exceed my budget and I have not purchased a subwoofer yet

I have considered the SVS PB-12NSD ($779), The Hsu VTF-3 MK 4 ($650), the slightly cheaper Rythmik FV12 ($499), Epik Legend ($499) and Outlaw LFM-1 EX ($499). Now Newegg is offering the discontinued Klipsch RW-12d for $299 with free shipping.

I'm have never owned a subwoofer before, so I'm struggling a bit to really discern the value/quality/sonic differences between these subs. Are the SVS and Hsu subs really worth a $200 premium over the Rythmik, Epik and Outlaw subs and $400 premium over the Klipsch?

I'm an audiophile at heart, but with a more modest budget. Sound quality matters a lot to me. Would rather sacrifice some volume in exchange for clean sound reproduction. My media room is full of Vandersteens, top of the line Pioneer elite receiver, 63 inch 1080P HDTV plasma, a full 7.1 surround setup, etc. A subwoofer is not needed in my media room as most of my media room speakers are capable of 25Hz and above and the bass will rattle pictures off the walls downstairs already.

Now back to the living room ... I am upgrading from an old 32 inch CRT to a 51 inch plasma HDTV + blue ray player. I have an older but fantastic Pioneer Elite VSX-95 5.1 surround receiver that I'll keep using. I want to upgrade the speaker system. Space for speakers is more limited, so I'll be using bookshelf based speaker system in the living room. These will require a subwoofer for full sound reproduction for movies and music.

If I buy the Klipsch for $299, will I regret it for the rest of my life ? I tend to buy better quality stuff and use it until rigor mortis sets in, but I just don't want to overdo it in the living room with an older but high quality pro-logic receiver. If I want audiophile theater quality, I'll just go upstairs to the media room.

Help me decide on the right approach ... I need to stay married and my wife will already have a cow over what I've spent so far when the credit card statement arrives in Dec

Thanks, Steven
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post #2 of 138 Old 11-27-2011, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Forgot to mention that I haven't picked out the bookshelf speakers yet, but I expect they will be challenged in the bass region like most bookshelf speakers. Expect to need a subwoofer with good performance up through 140-150Hz in order to overlap well with smaller bookshelf and center channel speakers. That might rule out the Rythmik FV12 as I think it rolls off around 100Hz.

- Steven
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post #3 of 138 Old 11-27-2011, 09:50 PM
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Since you said that sound quality matters a lot to you, I'd rule out the Klipsch. The Klipsch is an excellent buy for $299, but I doubt anyone would consider it to be a great sub or would consider it to be as good as some of the other you are considering. That's a pretty big room you have and you would be best off considering a pair of subs to fill it with bass. A pair of the Outlaw LFM-1 EX's would probably serve you well. If the pair is too far over budget, one now and perhaps one more at a later time is something to consider.
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post #4 of 138 Old 11-27-2011, 09:52 PM
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Just thought I would point out that the LM-1-EX is $649, not $499.

Check out this recent thread which might help you decide:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ex-review.html

From reading these forums, it seems like people call the Hsu subs "musical". From the reviews I have read the model you are looking at might not dig as deep a the PB12-NSD. Also, reviewers rave about the new SVS Sledge amps. It also seems that some people either really like Epik subs while others feel they sacrifice sound quality and parts quality to get better output for less money. I have never heard one, but that seems to be a pretty constant source of arguments on these forums.

BTW, I own a PB10-NSD from 2008 and love it for movies.

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post #5 of 138 Old 11-27-2011, 11:04 PM
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There is a thread with a comparison of the $769 SVS PB-12NSD and the $1,018 HSU VTF-15H. The PB-12NSD had more output from ~20Hz-32Hz, while the much more expensive HSU had more output above 32Hz.

Considering that the PB-12NSD competed very well against the much larger and more expensive VTF-15H, I would put the PB-12NSD at top of my list.
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post #6 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

There is a thread with a comparison of the $769 SVS PB-12NSD and the $1,018 HSU VTF-15H. The PB-12NSD had more output from ~20Hz-32Hz, while the much more expensive HSU had more output above 32Hz.

Considering that the PB-12NSD competed very well against the much larger and more expensive VTF-15H, I would put the PB-12NSD at top of my list.

Could you tell us where the thread with the comparison is?

The following values are measured in the same CEA 2010 standard by a reputable magazine S&V:

HSU VTF-15:
Bass output (CEA-2010 standard)
Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 119.2 dB
Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 123.2 dB

PB12-NSD:
Bass output, subwoofer (CEA-2010 standard)
Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 111.0 dB
Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 118.1 dB

In terms of output the measurements show the HSU VTF-15 wins hand down on paper. In fact there is hardly any product from a particular ID that is at the same time BOTH much cheaper yet much better in performance than the competitions. Similar performing subs are always priced similarly among different ID companies. Besides, SVS is not the company that gives you the biggest bang for the buck either. Rythmik, CHT and other DIY backyard/garage companies here are closer to get this title I think, but usually at the expense of build quality, customer service, etc.
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post #7 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

There is a thread with a comparison of the $769 SVS PB-12NSD and the $1,018 HSU VTF-15H. The PB-12NSD had more output from ~20Hz-32Hz, while the much more expensive HSU had more output above 32Hz.

Considering that the PB-12NSD competed very well against the much larger and more expensive VTF-15H, I would put the PB-12NSD at top of my list.

Really? Where is it?

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #8 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 07:39 AM
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We all know that the AH tests differ from Brent's tests at S&V. Unfortunately Paul's comments post the test did bring into question a lot of the numbers in it and whether they were "altered" in any way due to his distaste for HSU.

We also know that Brent's numbers change depending on the equipment he is using and or testing methodology, and that in listening tests he couldn't discern the differences between 5 to 8db of supposed additional headroom the VTF-15H provided vs the PB12-NSD according to his own measurements, and supposedly found the PB12-NSD more "Detailed" (whatever that means).

Further, we understand that Brent's DD-15 numbers are supposedly way above Josh's DD-18+ numbers (not sure if these have been posted) according to Gene, and are very close if not higher than an 18"LMS-5400 driver with two to 4 times the power provided to it in a similar sized box. So I'll leave it to the individual as to whether they want to use Brent's numbers as gospel.

Wonder if Josh will ever get his hands on a VTF-15, not sure that AH would want that if Josh's numbers are different than Paul's.

Hmmm...

 

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post #9 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

Really? Where is it?

Read through the thread at audioholics that NewHTbuyer posted above. It talks about the data for the EX, PB12-NSD, and the VTF-15H.

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post #10 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerstripe View Post

Could you tell us where the thread with the comparison is?

The following values are measured in the same CEA 2010 standard by a reputable magazine S&V:

HSU VTF-15:
Bass output (CEA-2010 standard)
Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 119.2 dB
Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 123.2 dB

PB12-NSD:
Bass output, subwoofer (CEA-2010 standard)
Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 111.0 dB
Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 118.1 dB

In terms of output the measurements show the HSU VTF-15 wins hand down on paper. In fact there is hardly any product from a particular ID that is at the same time BOTH much cheaper yet much better in performance than the competitions. Similar performing subs are always priced similarly among different ID companies. Besides, SVS is not the company that gives you the biggest bang for the buck either. Rythmik, CHT and other DIY backyard/garage companies here are closer to get this title I think, but usually at the expense of build quality, customer service, etc.

Here is a chart with the measurements of the VTF15 and PB12-NSD from different sources. All numbers converted to 2M RMS.

20hz 25hz 31.5hz 40hz 50hz 63hz 80hz 100hz 125hz
AH VTF15H two ports open 100.9 106.8 110 112.7 112.7 112.6
S&V VTF15H two ports open 104.4 113.1 113.2 114.4 113.8 114.4
VTF15H two ports open HSU numbers 105 109 112 114-116 114-116 114-116 114-116 114-116
AH VTF15H one port 102.6 105.4 109 111 111 111.3
S&V VTF15H one port 105.8 107.7 112.6 111 112.2 113.7
S&V PB12-NSD 101.2 101.8 103.1 110 111.3 106.1
PB12-NSD SVS numbers 104.5 107.3 108.4 108.9 109 109.3 109.8
Ilkka PB12-NSD BASH 102 104.1 106.8 109.8 111.2 111.6 110.8

There are many different factors that can cause measurements to be different (temperature, weather, equipment, locations, etc.) so you should expect some difference comparing results from two different tests. However these results are too different to attribute to those factors alone. There are a few numbers that appear to me to be outliers and should be questioned, but I don't want to start another big argument. It's up to each person to decide which numbers they trust the most to use for a comparison.

Hopefully Ricci can test both subs next year so we have more data.

-Mike
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post #11 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post


Wonder if Josh will ever get his hands on a VTF-15, not sure that AH would want that if Josh's numbers are different than Paul's.

Hmmm...

Before Josh was associated with AH, he did test the Rythmik FV15HP and his numbers were different than Paul's. There are legitimate reasons for differences in measurements so I try not to get hung up on differences when they are only a few db and the differences are similar for most frequencies.

Personally, it's when the numbers are very different, more than 3db or so, or when the shape of the response or the sub's behavior is very different that I begin to question the differences.

For example, take a look at this data:

20hz 25hz 31.5hz
AH VTF15H two ports open 100.9 106.8 110
S&V VTF15H two ports open 104.4 113.1 113.2
VTF15H two ports open HSU numbers 105 109 112

AH does show a larger dropoff at lower frequencies, but that is not what jumps out at me. Both AH and HSU numbers show an increase from 20hz to 25hz and another increase from 25hz to 31.5hz. S&V is the only test that shows the same output at 25hz as 31.5hz. To me, that is an outlier and should be looked at more closely.

-Mike
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post #12 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 08:45 AM
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Thanks ironhead1230 and spyboy for the information. If S&V and AH cannot be trusted it leaves nothing as the only trustworthy source... perhaps no magazine can be trusted anyway, not even AH and S&V...

It is really a pity that this hobby is flooded with so much misinformation and trickery that buying a sub or speakers requires doing so much research. Despite the efforts, one can still leave in the dark with respect to their true performance, and I bet nothing in one's life including a house, a car etc is so hard to decide upon.

On the positive side, perhaps these Hsu/SVS/Rythmik subs are already the best and we are just picky to get the best of the best... We can't go wrong choosing any of them.

So, OP just flip a coin
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post #13 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Well said.

Heck, I have a masters degree in electrical engineering and I find that all of the audio testing results are confusing at best and misleading at worst.

There are physical characteristics that can be measured in controlled settings (SPL, Frequency response, power consumption, harmonic distortion, etc), then there are perceptual things that differ from one person to another. Sound quality is not 100% measurable.

There are no objective measures of sound quality available in the realm of physics. Sound is by definition how an individual's brain interprets the stimulus that it receives from our auditory senses. Some physical measurements such as harmonic distortion do correlate to some degree with how we perceive "sounds", but many do not. Remember the old trick question the physics professors like to ask --> If a tree falls in a forest and no one is present to witness it, does it make a sound when it falls ? The answer most folks give is "yes". The correct answer is "no". Vibrations in the air only become "sound"" when there is someone present to "hear" them.

Since most of the testing is done by self appointed audo guru's at magazines using equipment and measurement scenarios that change with time, there is little hope of true apples to apples comparisons unless an independent lab is used to test audio gear under repeatable, controlled conditions. The best we can hope for is to be able to lump some speakers into groups that have roughly similar characteristics and price ranges.

Given that I don't have the time or availability to personally audition all of the subwoofer options under controlled conditions, I'm going to have to take my best guess based on whatever data is available and the subjective experiences of others. That's why I started this thread. I very much appreciate all of the feedback guys/gals.

- Steven
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post #14 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 09:19 AM
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Numbers aside, any of the quality subs you wind up with will likely not be disappointing once you have it in the room. I'd be willing to bet most individuals would not hear the differences between some of those numbers.

I've had the RW-12 in a large room and it was basically swallowed up by the 9000+cu feet it was sitting in. Funny enough, my DT BP30 towers had much more low end impact than the Klipsch in that room. You will want to go with something far more powerful.

The PB-12NSD and VTF-MK4 look awesome for the money. I can't imagine you wouldn't be happy with either. You could always add a second unit in the future.
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post #15 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

We all know that the AH tests differ from Brent's tests at S&V. Unfortunately Paul's comments post the test did bring into question a lot of the numbers in it and whether they were "altered" in any way due to his distaste for HSU.

We also know that Brent's numbers change depending on the equipment he is using and or testing methodology, and that in listening tests he couldn't discern the differences between 5 to 8db of supposed additional headroom the VTF-15H provided vs the PB12-NSD according to his own measurements, and supposedly found the PB12-NSD more "Detailed" (whatever that means).

Further, we understand that Brent's DD-15 numbers are supposedly way above Josh's DD-18+ numbers (not sure if these have been posted) according to Gene, and are very close if not higher than an 18"LMS-5400 driver with two to 4 times the power provided to it in a similar sized box. So I'll leave it to the individual as to whether they want to use Brent's numbers as gospel.

Wonder if Josh will ever get his hands on a VTF-15, not sure that AH would want that if Josh's numbers are different than Paul's.


Hmmm...

The numbers between Ricci and Paul are not similar, anyway. Ricci measured ~3db(more) difference overall vs Paul in the Rythmik.

So after all, Paul numbers are the ones hanging alone...

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #16 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Before Josh was associated with AH, he did test the Rythmik FV15HP and his numbers were different than Paul's. There are legitimate reasons for differences in measurements so I try not to get hung up on differences when they are only a few db and the differences are similar for most frequencies.

Personally, it's when the numbers are very different, more than 3db or so, or when the shape of the response or the sub's behavior is very different that I begin to question the differences.

For example, take a look at this data:

20hz 25hz 31.5hz
AH VTF15H two ports open 100.9 106.8 110
S&V VTF15H two ports open 104.4 113.1 113.2
VTF15H two ports open HSU numbers 105 109 112

AH does show a larger dropoff at lower frequencies, but that is not what jumps out at me. Both AH and HSU numbers show an increase from 20hz to 25hz and another increase from 25hz to 31.5hz. S&V is the only test that shows the same output at 25hz as 31.5hz. To me, that is an outlier and should be looked at more closely.

-Mike

I don't disagree, which is why I'd prefer to just rely on Ricci's tests as they appear to be the only ones that one can compare to. I fully expect differences of +/- 1 to 2db.

I do know that S&V's numbers just seem odd when you look at them in any light, and between what he is measuring and his own comments, they make less and less sense. Have a look at his DD15+ numbers when you get a chance...

 

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post #17 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

The numbers between Ricci and Paul are not similar, anyway. Ricci measured ~3db(more) difference overall vs Paul in the Rythmik.

So after all, Paul numbers are the ones hanging alone...

Actually, Paul's measurements of the Rythmik FV15HP are pretty close with Ricci's except at 20Hz.



It seems the discrepancies are more pronounced at the lower frequencies. The interesting question is why.

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post #18 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 10:07 AM
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I stand corrected then. Somehow the 20hz difference is higher than what I thought.

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post #19 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

I stand corrected then. Somehow the 20hz difference is higher than what I thought.

I agree. This makes me wonder how reliable and reproducible the measurements are at the ultra-low frequencies, especially when done by two different people. Even comparing between Brent and Paul's measurements of the VTF-15H, the disparities increase at the lower frequencies.

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post #20 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 10:27 AM
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I'd be curious to see how the "new" PB12 Nsd compares vs. the Outlaw LFM 1 since Ricci will be testing in due time. I don't think we'll see much variance in the numbers once Ricci has complete his tests over the numbers posted by Svs at audioholics the other day.

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post #21 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 10:33 AM
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jhan1000,

Was the AH Rhytmik tested in 1 port open mode or in 2 port open mode. I know Ricci did it with 1-2 ports open, but I am not sure about Paul's?

You are quoting 1 port open of Ricci's test, but what about AH? I think the FV15HP was tested in its native tuning. That means that the disparity is within 2-3dbs from each other overall.

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post #22 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Numbers aside, any of the quality subs you wind up with will likely not be disappointing once you have it in the room. I'd be willing to bet most individuals would not hear the differences between some of those numbers.

I've had the RW-12 in a large room and it was basically swallowed up by the 9000+cu feet it was sitting in. Funny enough, my DT BP30 towers had much more low end impact than the Klipsch in that room. You will want to go with something far more powerful.

The PB-12NSD and VTF-MK4 look awesome for the money. I can't imagine you wouldn't be happy with either. You could always add a second unit in the future.

Get the one that gives you the output and extension that you want with the least effort. Then again, you may be concerned with aesthetics and value.

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post #23 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

jhan1000,

Was the AH Rhytmik tested in 1 port open mode or in 2 port open mode. I know Ricci did it with 1-2 ports open, but I am not sure about Paul's?

You are quoting 1 port open of Ricci's test, but what about AH? I think the FV15HP was tested in its native tuning. That means that the disparity is within 2-3dbs from each other overall.

Damn... Thanks for catching that. Ricci tested both one and two ports open, but I believe that Paul only tested with both ports open.


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post #24 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 11:43 AM
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No worries there...

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post #25 of 138 Old 11-28-2011, 12:47 PM
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While the measurements can somewhat deviate among different tests using the same CEA 2010 standard (with distance adjusted), I found the HSU VTF-15H results were frequently disputed because people who compared the 15H with other similar ID subs under the same conditions usually commented that the 15H had the most powerful punch yet their SPL meters suggested otherwise. The most notable case comes from the following shootout:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1313176

Pete@HSU offered an explanation to this phenomenon and I wanna know if you guys are convinced:

Hi Ethan and Adam,

I think the reason the VTF-15H shook the room the most is because it had the least deep bass output compression, and perhaps the strongest deep bass output too. The sound level meter will not capture this because the meter tends to lose accuracy at low frequencies below 35Hz, ie. the meter will capture maximum sound pressure level centered around some mid-bass frequencies rather than deep bass frequencies. A low level frequency response sweep will also not capture the lack of deep bass output compression nor the behavior of the subwoofer with both deep bass and mid-bass frequencies playing at the same time. I don't think that the disc feet really contribute in any significant way. Even with the 15H placed on it's side, the room shaking effect should be virtually the same.

Hope this helps!

Sincerely,
Pete - Hsu Research


I found the above explanation quite plausible since AH reviews focused mainly on the numbers, while S&V reviews mentioned more on the sound quality and other impressions than just numbers.

When I was in high school my physics teacher told me that aerodynamics showed that a bumble bee was unable to fly. Then there was a paper in Nature formulating a simple mathematical model showing Tyrannosaurus rex couldn't run, using data and extrapolations from the muscle mass of the alligators and domestic chicken (which are not good models as chicken are domesticated to have extra muscle mass in legs for meat - ostriches and other bipedal runners were better models), and were later shown to be wrong by more comprehensive studies such as inputting most of the complex skeletal and muscular structure data of the T. rex directly to a powerful supercomputer with 256 processors for calculation over a week... T. rex could definitely run and a bumble bee can definitely fly - a good flyer in fact.

Mathematical models just cannot explain anything, as they are always simplified and can unlikely take every important variable and datum into account, let alone these SPL measurements are done by different people with different preferences and tools.

To show what the HSU VTF-15H is capable of, wouldn't it require a powerful supercomputer with 256 processors and 1 week of continuous to get the results?
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post #26 of 138 Old 11-29-2011, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerstripe View Post

While the measurements can somewhat deviate among different tests using the same CEA 2010 standard (with distance adjusted), I found the HSU VTF-15H results were frequently disputed because people who compared the 15H with other similar ID subs under the same conditions usually commented that the 15H had the most powerful punch yet their SPL meters suggested otherwise. The most notable case comes from the following shootout:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1313176

Pete@HSU offered an explanation to this phenomenon and I wanna know if you guys are convinced:

Hi Ethan and Adam,

I think the reason the VTF-15H shook the room the most is because it had the least deep bass output compression, and perhaps the strongest deep bass output too. The sound level meter will not capture this because the meter tends to lose accuracy at low frequencies below 35Hz, ie. the meter will capture maximum sound pressure level centered around some mid-bass frequencies rather than deep bass frequencies. A low level frequency response sweep will also not capture the lack of deep bass output compression nor the behavior of the subwoofer with both deep bass and mid-bass frequencies playing at the same time. I don't think that the disc feet really contribute in any significant way. Even with the 15H placed on it's side, the room shaking effect should be virtually the same.

Hope this helps!

Sincerely,
Pete - Hsu Research


I found the above explanation quite plausible since AH reviews focused mainly on the numbers, while S&V reviews mentioned more on the sound quality and other impressions than just numbers.

When I was in high school my physics teacher told me that aerodynamics showed that a bumble bee was unable to fly. Then there was a paper in Nature formulating a simple mathematical model showing Tyrannosaurus rex couldn't run, using data and extrapolations from the muscle mass of the alligators and domestic chicken (which are not good models as chicken are domesticated to have extra muscle mass in legs for meat - ostriches and other bipedal runners were better models), and were later shown to be wrong by more comprehensive studies such as inputting most of the complex skeletal and muscular structure data of the T. rex directly to a powerful supercomputer with 256 processors for calculation over a week... T. rex could definitely run and a bumble bee can definitely fly - a good flyer in fact.

Mathematical models just cannot explain anything, as they are always simplified and can unlikely take every important variable and datum into account, let alone these SPL measurements are done by different people with different preferences and tools.

To show what the HSU VTF-15H is capable of, wouldn't it require a powerful supercomputer with 256 processors and 1 week of continuous to get the results?

Acoustic modeling isn't nearly as complex as things like aerodynamic and muscleo-skeletal simulations, though.

A much simpler explanation is that "punch" and SPL are different phenomena. What most reviewers describe as "punch" is probably more like the amount of air moved (and is sensed by our sense of touch), which is different from the change in pressure being measured by SPL (and is sensed by sense of hearing as "loudness").
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post #27 of 138 Old 11-29-2011, 02:00 PM
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Just thought I would point out that the LM-1-EX is $649, not $499.

Check out this recent thread which might help you decide:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ex-review.html

I wouldnt put too much merit into that thread. There are a bunch of inaccurate numbers going on there comparing the VTF-15h and the PB12-NSD, but we shall soon see since AH will be reviewing the PB12-NSD. I hope Ricci will be the one reviewing it since he did the Outlaw LFM-EX which is basically the same as the HSU VTF-3 MK4 which the OP was originally asking about. http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...-12nsd-preview If you scroll down you can get an idea of how they compare, but be mindful that the PB12-NSD numbers are from Ed Mullen of SVS and the Outlaw numbers are from Ricci.

SVS PB12-NSD ($769 +free shipping)
HSU VTF-3 MK4 ($699 +$99 shipping)
Outlaw LFM-1 EX ($649 +$90 shipping)

The Outlaw is on sale today for $649 +free shipping and an OAW3 wireless kit and I have seen it for $550 shipped. I think HSU usually does like $30 off on their sales and I`m not sure about SVS. To me the best deal is the Outlaw when on sale, but if price is not a factor then it also comes down to personal preference like looks, design etc...

Life is hard, be harder.
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post #28 of 138 Old 11-29-2011, 02:36 PM
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AH did the preview of the PB12-NSD and released a few key measurements just a few hours ago.

I am now having a terrible time deciding between getting the FV12, or spending $200 more and getting the PB12-NSD.
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post #29 of 138 Old 11-29-2011, 03:14 PM
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The EX is more comparable to the VTf3 Mk2. Not to the VTf3 Mk4.

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #30 of 138 Old 11-29-2011, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

The EX is more comparable to the VTf3 Mk2. Not to the VTf3 Mk4.

And you make that distinction based on? The EX is comparable to the VTF3.2 in enclosure design (downfiring). But as I understand it, the LFM-1 Plus was the model that competed with the VTF3.2.

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