JL Audio F112 vs Velodyne DD-12+ - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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So I have narrowed my search and wanted to check which is better.. JL Audio F112 vs Velodynes DD-12+.

This is mainly for movies for my HT. My intention is to get 2 subs, but I will get one first, check my frequency room response and if needed then get a second one.

I have a 3k cubic feet room where living rm, kitchen & dining area are combined. I do have an Integra DHC-80.3 that has Audyssey XT32.

My main goal is to have a good room frequency response. Although Velo seems to have a better EQ vs JL Audio... Not sure if it would make a difference since my pre-pro has Audyssey XT32.

Below are my pros & cons of each

Velo pros
  • Recent upgrade from DD series
  • Better EQ than JL

JL Audio pros
  • Most dealers recommend JL over Velo

JL Audio cons
  • A bit concerned that F112 is about 5-6years old. But again this may not be a con... If it's not broken why fix it ?

I'm currently leaning towards JL Audio but I'm unable to find any comparison between these two.

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post #2 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 11:20 AM
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Velodyne changed the emphasis in the new DD Plus series to make the lowest frequencies (ULF 20Hz-31.5Hz) more prominent at some expense to the merely low frequencies (40-63Hz). The older F112 sacrifices more ULF to achieve higher output from 40-63 Hz.

That is it in a nutshell.

In which range do you want the most headroom, ULF or LF?

ULF = Velodyne.
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post #3 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Velodyne changed the emphasis in the new DD Plus series to make the lowest frequencies (ULF 20Hz-31.5Hz) more prominent at some expense to the merely low frequencies (40-63Hz). The older F112 sacrifices more ULF to achieve higher output from 40-63 Hz.

That is it in a nutshell.

In which range do you want the most headroom, ULF or LF?

ULF = Velodyne.

So if my use is mainly movies... I suppose ULF would be better ?

BTW, Just spoke with 2 dealers that carry both Velo & JL Audio... Hands down, they pick JL Audio over Velo...

They seem to emphasize that JL Audio seems to better integrate with rest of speakers.

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post #4 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 12:17 PM
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If I were you, I'd buy giomania's F113 pair and be done with it ...

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post #5 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 12:18 PM
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Would any of these dealers allow you to audition them in the showroom or at home so you could hear them for yourself?
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post #6 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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If I were you, I'd buy giomania's F113 pair and be done with it ...

No room for a pair of F113 The max I can do is a pair of F112. I did consider a 12" and then a 10" but after careful measurements... I can do a pair of 12"

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post #7 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spike9876 View Post

BTW, Just spoke with 2 dealers that carry both Velo & JL Audio... Hands down, they pick JL Audio over Velo...

I wouldn't put too much on that. Remember, the dealers will not have to listen to the subs everyday or live with your decision. Also, any decent/good sub will not have any problems blending with the rest of your system once it has been properly placed and calibrated. There's only one way for you to truly find out and that is go and listen to both subs. If you could audition them in your room, that would be even better. That way, you could spend time setting them up the way that you like and giving each one a fair listen. Using the two things on the side of your head (your ears) is the only way to answer your question.
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post #8 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spike9876 View Post

So if my use is mainly movies... I suppose ULF would be better ?

BTW, Just spoke with 2 dealers that carry both Velo & JL Audio... Hands down, they pick JL Audio over Velo...

They seem to emphasize that JL Audio seems to better integrate with rest of speakers.

Do these 2 dealers have both the DD-12 Plus and the JL Audio F112 in their showroom so that you can get a demo of both using the same speakers the dealer has the subs working with?

If not, I would take their recommendations with a grain of salt. If they have both subs on display, you would be well advised to go hear for yourself.

I always thought the Velodyne adjustable LPF from 40Hz-199Hz in 1 db steps would make for a very flexible matching to your speakers.
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post #9 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 01:15 PM
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they are basically very comparable subs. I like that the Velodyne has a bit more deep bass. It also has customizable presets so that you can filter out the low bass and give you more mid bass output with its contouring feature, it's up to you.

Either way you can't go wrong.

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post #10 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Do these 2 dealers have both the DD-12 Plus and the JL Audio F112 in their showroom so that you can get a demo of both using the same speakers the dealer has the subs working with?

If not, I would take their recommendations with a grain of salt. If they have both subs on display, you would be well advised to go hear for yourself.

Believe it or not... No Velodyne dealers in NY have DD+ subs on display or in stock.

I did have a concern that they were recommending a product when they did not have it in stock. But one of the dealers I had spoken with... did seem to have experience with Velo..

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post #11 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by spike9876 View Post

Believe it or not... No Velodyne dealers in NY have DD+ subs on display or in stock.

I did have a concern that they were recommending a product when they did not have it in stock. But one of the dealers I had spoken with... did seem to have experience with Velo..

So explain to me exactly how those 2 dealers you mentioned strongly recommended the F112 over the DD-12 Plus?
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post #12 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

So explain to me exactly how those 2 dealers you mentioned strongly recommended the F112 over the DD-12 Plus?

My understanding was that they had experience with both companines.

But like I said... I have called alot of velo dealers (actually, I have called all NY & some NJ dealers) and none have DD+ subs... From this statement... After some thought... that does say something no ?

BTW... A couple of days ago.. I was pretty set on Velo DD+... but so many recommendations for JL Audio...

Also, Velo DD12+ is like more that $700 MSRP over F112.

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post #13 of 38 Old 12-12-2011, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Would be nice to have some Velo DD+ owners chime in

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post #14 of 38 Old 12-13-2011, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spike9876 View Post

Would be nice to have some Velo DD+ owners chime in

That would be nice.

Personally, I wouldn't spend what the F112 costs given its limitations in the 20hz-31.5 Hz band, especially since that is exactly where Velodyne has changed the Frequency Response of the DD Pus series.

But, as Warp indicated they are both good subs and you will likely be satisfied with either one especially if you can get the F112 for $700 less than the DD-12 Plus.
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post #15 of 38 Old 12-13-2011, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

That would be nice.

Personally, I wouldn't spend what the F112 costs given its limitations in the 20hz-31.5 Hz band, especially since that is exactly where Velodyne has changed the Frequency Response of the DD Pus series.

But, as Warp indicated they are both good subs and you will likely be satisfied with either one especially if you can get the F112 for $700 less than the DD-12 Plus.

My personal feeling is that Velo will do a better job at equalizing... and possibly JL audio would be preferred for 2 channel stereo vs HT ?

If I get dual subs... I estimate that JL Audio will be $700 cheaper. So for an extra $700... Is it worth getting Velo for HT use ?

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post #16 of 38 Old 12-14-2011, 10:03 AM
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I personally do not think the F112 is lacking in the 20-32Hz range. Rolloff starts around 18hz in my room thats 14x19 and opens up into a dining room. Audioholics review showed the F112 averaging over 100db in that range which should be plenty for practical use, of course depending on the size of the room.
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post #17 of 38 Old 12-14-2011, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilnape2604 View Post

I personally do not think the F112 is lacking in the 20-32Hz range. Rolloff starts around 18hz in my room thats 14x19 and opens up into a dining room. Audioholics review showed the F112 averaging over 100db in that range which should be plenty for practical use, of course depending on the size of the room.

Brent Butterworth tested the F112 in a 6 sub shootout for Sound&Vision Magazine in September 2009. In his room the best the F112 could do was 95 db average from 20Hz-40Hz, and the lowest frequency it could deliver with less than 10% THD was 22.5Hz.

JL Audio's own measurements shown in the Audioholics review shows output at 20Hz to be 92.8 db measured in the corner of a 16ft X 21ft X 9.5ft room (3,200 cubic feet). There is a reason that many subs are tuned to 20Hz. It is considered the bedrock frequency.

The F112 has great output in the upper bass, with maximum output being at 63Hz.

The point here is that Velodyne changed the DD series to deliver more output in the ULF range, (20-31.5 Hz), while the F112 remains the same as before with its emphasis being in the 40Hz and up range.
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post #18 of 38 Old 12-14-2011, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Brent Butterworth tested the F112 in a 6 sub shootout for Sound&Vision Magazine in September 2009. In his room the best the F112 could do was 95 db average from 20Hz-40Hz, and the lowest frequency it could deliver with less than 10% THD was 22.5Hz.

JL Audio's own measurements shown in the Audioholics review shows output at 20Hz to be 92.8 db measured in the corner of a 16ft X 21ft X 9.5ft room (3,200 cubic feet). There is a reason that many subs are tuned to 20Hz. It is considered the bedrock frequency.

The F112 has great output in the upper bass, with maximum output being at 63Hz.

The point here is that Velodyne changed the DD series to deliver more output in the ULF range, (20-31.5 Hz), while the F112 remains the same as before with its emphasis being in the 40Hz and up range.

Today, I spoke to yet another dealer that sells both Velodyne & JL Audio... And it appears they have knowledge of both brands... including attending Velo sponsored presentations. And as expected they recommended hands down JL Audio. If I can only get a dealer that recommends Velodyne over JL Audio... I no longer think that's happening.

I'll be buying subs in the next day or so... Buying 2 subs... looks like a saving of over $1,200 over Velo. So, to me it doesn't seem to make any sense

No matter how much I would like to pull for Velo... I should probably follow dealer recommendations....

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post #19 of 38 Old 12-15-2011, 05:55 AM
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Even though I like the Velo more, $1200 is a lot of money, so I would just go with the JL. Even though the Velo goes deeper, the JL is a very impressive beast of a compact sub.

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post #20 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spike9876 View Post

Today, I spoke to yet another dealer that sells both Velodyne & JL Audio... And it appears they have knowledge of both brands... including attending Velo sponsored presentations. And as expected they recommended hands down JL Audio. If I can only get a dealer that recommends Velodyne over JL Audio... I no longer think that's happening.

I'll be buying subs in the next day or so... Buying 2 subs... looks like a saving of over $1,200 over Velo. So, to me it doesn't seem to make any sense

No matter how much I would like to pull for Velo... I should probably follow dealer recommendations....

You should also ask for the dealers recommendations for some new subwoofer cables and upgraded power cords for the JL Audio subs.
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post #21 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 01:33 PM
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Wonder if they have a greater margin or kick back on Fathoms. Now that I think about it wasn't there news about Velo letting go of it's distribution network and salesmen so it could be an ID only company?
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post #22 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Wonder if they have a greater margin or kick back on Fathoms. Now that I think about it wasn't there news about Velo letting go of it's distribution network and salesmen so it could be an ID only company?

I had spoken to one dealer and although he was a Velo dealer, he had told me that they had no sales rep or training for over 2 years...

It appears that they are going the internet route instead of having a dealer network ? I haven't been able to understand why no Velo dealer have DD+ in stock.

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post #23 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Wonder if they have a greater margin or kick back on Fathoms. Now that I think about it wasn't there news about Velo letting go of it's distribution network and salesmen so it could be an ID only company?

Velodyne got rid of independent sales reps that are regional marketing companies that functioned as a go-between dealers and the company, which just gets rid of a layer of middlemen, but they still sell through B&M, and they added some, but not all of their subs that are now available directly from Velodyne. See post #10 below for the explanation from Rob Morse of Velodyne.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ht=velodyne+id

They are far from being only Internet Direct.
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post #24 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spike9876 View Post

I had spoken to one dealer and although he was a Velo dealer, he had told me that they had no sales rep or training for over 2 years...

It appears that they are going the internet route instead of having a dealer network ? I haven't been able to understand why no Velo dealer have DD+ in stock.

Not going ID for their best subs. You can't buy a DD-18 Plus directly from Velodyne. More than 5 years ago I had to call around to find a DD-18 to audition. IIRC the closest was in another state. These really expensive subs are a big investment for a store and there is a long history of spiffs which are secret bonuses for salesmen to push a particular brand. I don't know if JL Audio engages in this practice but it is possible as Glashub alludes to.
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post #25 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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You should also ask for the dealers recommendations for some new subwoofer cables and upgraded power cords for the JL Audio subs.

Yesterday I went to a dealer that had a F112 on display... also a Velo dealer but no Velo subs. They played a movie with a single sub... and 'WOW', I was totally impressed.

Floor shook and I felt shock waves and wondering if there were any other subs playing. With either my B&W or SVS I have not felt what this sub produced... Not even close...

There was one thing... They had placed sub in a corner which appears that it gave it more power... but still... I was very impressed. I started wondering "do I really need 2 subs" ?

Edit: For cables, they did recommend balanced but I really don't think its gonna make a difference... In any case, I'll be buying relatively cheap XLR cables.

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post #26 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spike9876 View Post

Yesterday I went to a dealer that had a F112 on display... also a Velo dealer but no Velo subs. They played a movie with a single sub... and 'WOW', I was totally impressed.

Floor shook and I felt shock waves and wondering if there were any other subs playing. With either my B&W or SVS I have not felt what this sub produced... Not even close...

There was one thing... They had placed sub in a corner which appears that it gave it more power... but still... I was very impressed. I started wondering "do I really need 2 subs" ?

That's pretty interesting since you had an SVS PB-12 Plus. In the 6 sub shootout including the PB-12 Plus and the JL Audio F112 the SVS murdered the F112 below about 30 Hz, and I ain't talking small differences. More like 20 db advantage at 20Hz for the PB-12 Plus.....
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post #27 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Not going ID for their best subs. You can't buy a DD-18 Plus directly from Velodyne. More than 5 years ago I had to call around to find a DD-18 to audition. IIRC the closest was in another state. These really expensive subs are a big investment for a store and there is a long history of spiffs which are secret bonuses for salesmen to push a particular brand. I don't know if JL Audio engages in this practice but it is possible as Glashub alludes to.

I don't know if this is the case... but if this was the case... They doing a very good job

Yes, one dealer mentioned that they could not have every sub because it is an investment for a store to have them. But at least they should have 1 model... But I suppose if they are not going to recommend a brand... why have it in stock.

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post #28 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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That's pretty interesting since you had an SVS PB-12 Plus. In the 6 sub shootout including the PB-12 Plus and the JL Audio F112 the SVS murdered the F112 below about 30 Hz, and I ain't talking small differences. More like 20 db advantage at 20Hz for the PB-12 Plus.....

Yes, I have the PB-12+... And I don't what to tell you... All I can say was that I was very impressed. I have not felt any subs the way I did...... I was sitting down and had my feet on their wood floor. Not only did I feel the floor tremble I also felt kind of after shocks...

I don't know if this has anything to do with this... but obviously they had a different room layout. They had a big open layout maybe 4 times the size of my living room. They did tell me that I felt more effects because sub was on a corner but I couldn't believe that this was only coming from only 1 sub.

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post #29 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 06:37 PM
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Yes, I have the PB-12+... And I don't what to tell you... All I can say was that I was very impressed. I have not felt any subs the way I did...... I was sitting down and had my feet on their wood floor. Not only did I feel the floor tremble I also felt kind of after shocks...

I don't know if this has anything to do with this... but obviously they had a different room layout. They had a big open layout maybe 4 times the size of my living room. They did tell me that I felt more effects because sub was on a corner but I couldn't believe that this was only coming from only 1 sub.

That is most likely what is happening. The room can play a huge role in the way a subs performs. I can guarantee you that if you took your PB12+ to that show room you would be surprised at how different it performs.

Perhaps you should work on proper sub placement in your room before you purchase anything. With the size of the SVS that won't be much fun. I have a smaller/midsize yet odd shaped room and had to move mine around 4-5 times before I was happy.
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post #30 of 38 Old 12-16-2011, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kesando View Post

That is most likely what is happening. The room can play a huge role in the way a subs performs. I can guarantee you that if you took your PB12+ to that show room you would be surprised at how different it performs.

Perhaps you should work on proper sub placement in your room before you purchase anything. With the size of the SVS that won't be much fun. I have a smaller/midsize yet odd shaped room and had to move mine around 4-5 times before I was happy.

Yes, I suppose the room plays a huge role. Just like when I bought my B&W speakers. When I went to audition them... I was impressed... I haven't been wowed when I brought them home.

Yes, Not fun & no room to move the SVS...

BTW, I doubled down on the F112's

After I get them, I'll come back with an update.

Fronts: B&W CM8
Center: B&W CM Center
Surround: B&W CM1
JL Audio F112
Integra DHC-80.3
Emotiva XPA-5
OPPO 93
HTPC
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