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post #1 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 02:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Is Definitive Technology SuperCube I 1,500W powered sub worth $499.99 new? The manufacturer claims it has a response range of 13Hz-200Hz. Has this been independently verified? What's the +-dB curve on this?

Thanks
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post #2 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

Is Definitive Technology SuperCube I 1,500W powered sub worth $499.99 new? The manufacturer claims it has a response range of 13Hz-200Hz. Has this been independently verified? What's the +-dB curve on this?

Thanks

This is 1 of 2 subs I own. Bought it before I knew how to shop for subs And believed the spec'd response. So you are wise to ask.

Their response is highly exaggerated. A Tom Nouissane (not sure of his name spelling) tested a lot of subs 5-7+ yrs ago and posted those results on a website. It might have been Secrets of Hi Fi, but I honestly don't remember. If you search the archives for the Supercube or Tom, you might find them. I think he was a very active AVS member as well so he might still be on the member roster & you could PM him.

The best the Supercube could do before reaching its -3 dB point was in the high 20's Hz, like in the 26-28Hz range. It CANNOT reach anywhere close to DT's spec'd 13 Hz; that number is bogus. O, it may have some miniscule output there, but it's not usable or really audible.

In my own room, I bought a test tone disc, and tested the freq response of my own setup. I couldn't audibly detect any sound below about 27 Hz, even putting my head next to the sub.

Is it an OK sub? Sure & for $500, it may be worth considering. When I bought mine, the MSRP retail price was ~$1200 and definitely not worth that considering competitive products. Not even a contest. Would I buy it again? No. Probably not even for $500.

I place a high value on a company being intellectually honest about their products and specs. While DefTech makes excellent speakers, I've owned a few myself, I have a problem when they don't specify "honest" performance and publish -3 dB or -6 dB output when there are so many speaker & subwoofer companies that not only publish those numbers but actually for the most part, live up to them - like Velodyne, SVS, Epic, Rythmic, Fathom, Hsu, etc.

This may be why they've dropped the price so radically

I'm not saying don't buy it, but buy it with the knowledge that it can't output the ultra-low frequencies <20 Hz, as is claimed.

Within its true performance parameters, the SC I is a good subwoofer. I use mine as the 2nd sub along with a Velodyne DD18, which actually does reach into the teens Hz, but the DD18 is a whole different class of sub performance & cost.

Steve
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post #3 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 04:55 AM
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I agree with pretty much everything Steve said above. Even at $500, there are better deals to be had unless you REALLY must have something in it's tiny size. Also, if you're hung up on a DT sub, see if you can find a SC Reference around the 800-900 mark used. It's a pretty decent performer, but again knowing what I do now, I'd be looking at Epik, Hsu, Chase, ED, etc in that price range.

The funny part is that I still own DT speakers (BP3000TL, BP2000, and BPVX). I think they sound great, but I did pick them up used for a fraction of their original tag. Of course, like Steve said, I didn't even consider looking at some of the specs related to my set since they're so far stretched.

The good part is if you decide to go for it, you could sell it pretty easily used for around what you paid for it new. The SCI's I see on the gon around that price are usually gone within a week.


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post #4 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 07:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

Is Definitive Technology SuperCube I 1,500W powered sub worth $499.99 new? The manufacturer claims it has a response range of 13Hz-200Hz. Has this been independently verified? What's the +-dB curve on this?

Thanks


$500.00 is a pretty good deal for new sub SC1. Most of the subs that will out perform it are refrigeraor size or really expensive. I was looking for a SC1 but could not find one for anything close to $500. For a sub that small it does a pretty good job.
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I agree with pretty much everything Steve said above. Even at $500, there are better deals to be had unless you REALLY must have something in it's tiny size. Also, if you're hung up on a DT sub, see if you can find a SC Reference around the 800-900 mark used. It's a pretty decent performer, but again knowing what I do now, I'd be looking at Epik, Hsu, Chase, ED, etc in that price range.

The funny part is that I still own DT speakers (BP3000TL, BP2000, and BPVX). I think they sound great, but I did pick them up used for a fraction of their original tag. Of course, like Steve said, I didn't even consider looking at some of the specs related to my set since they're so far stretched.

The good part is if you decide to go for it, you could sell it pretty easily used for around what you paid for it new. The SCI's I see on the gon around that price are usually gone within a week.

I have yet to find where folks a selling DT Reference subs for $800-900. The people who post on Audigon usually try to sell old stuff at a high price.
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post #6 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I have yet to find where folks a selling DT Reference subs for $800-900. The people who post on Audigon usually try to sell old stuff at a high price.

I have seen 2 in the past month in the 900-1000 range, asking price. The one for 900 sold pretty quickly, but there are deals to be had. Even the Trinity selling prices seem to be around 1200-1400 these days. The guys wanting 1300-1400 for a used reference are smoking something strong.


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post #7 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 11:52 AM
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I just came here to post about this sub which I saw on sale for $500 as well. Before I was thinking of getting HSU VTF-2 MK4 sub but now I'm considering this one. How would you compare the two?
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post #8 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I have seen 2 in the past month in the 900-1000 range, asking price. The one for 900 sold pretty quickly, but there are deals to be had. Even the Trinity selling prices seem to be around 1200-1400 these days. The guys wanting 1300-1400 for a used reference are smoking something strong.

Hi guys- i am the guy on audiogon with a pair of deftech references on sale for $2300. I am glad to read this post as you have educated me that I might be asking too much I'd prefer to sell them as a pair and would consider $2000 for both together

In general, deftech gets a little bit of a bad deal on these forums with many slamming their subs. For their relative size and high wife acceptance factor, references put out some very nice output. I easily fill my 25 by 15 foot room that happens to be open with the volume set at just 10 o'clock. Having two really helps smooth out the bass. Nothing against the super cube 1, but I think the reference and trinity are both excellent subs worth taking a strong look at.

Below the reference, I would only look for their small size and nice looks, especially if going in a family or living room. Please pm me if there is interest and no disrespect to any fans of the super cube 1.. I will most likely be lowering my price when the new audiogon site let's me login.

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post #9 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninor View Post

I just came here to post about this sub which I saw on sale for $500 as well. Before I was thinking of getting HSU VTF-2 MK4 sub but now I'm considering this one. How would you compare the two?

There used to be a site that hosted all of Tom Noussaine subwoofer measurements, but the link is no longer active. From what I remember, the Supercube 1 had lower 20 - 63Hz SPL averages compared with other ID subwoofers, including those that were designed by Hsu.

Personally, i would stick with the HSU VTF-2 as long as it's size wasn't a factor.

Life is good.
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post #10 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

Is Definitive Technology SuperCube I 1,500W powered sub worth $499.99 new? The manufacturer claims it has a response range of 13Hz-200Hz. Has this been independently verified? What's the +-dB curve on this?

Thanks

I hope this is not a product from a dealer who is not authorized and sells gray market goods. No manufacturers warranty on gray market goods.

When the price looks too good to be true is usually is.
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post #11 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jhan1000 View Post

There used to be a site that hosted all of Tom Noussaine subwoofer measurements, but the link is no longer active. From what I remember, the Supercube 1 had lower 20 - 63Hz SPL averages compared with other ID subwoofers, including those that were designed by Hsu.

Personally, i would stick with the HSU VTF-2 as long as it's size wasn't a factor.

Size is a factor, but I could deal with size. $115 lower price tag and being able to finance it without interest for 12 months is attracting me towards this Deftech
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post #12 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ninor View Post

I just came here to post about this sub which I saw on sale for $500 as well. Before I was thinking of getting HSU VTF-2 MK4 sub but now I'm considering this one. How would you compare the two?

Where are you seeing the SCI for $500?

I would get the VTF-2MK4 anyway.
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post #13 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninor View Post

Size is a factor, but I could deal with size. $115 lower price tag and being able to finance it without interest for 12 months is attracting me towards this Deftech

The Supercube I is smaller (14.25" x 14.1" x 14.25") than the HSU VTF-2 MK4 (22" X 15" X 23"). The HSU VTF-2 MK-4 will have significantly more output and will go lower than the Supercube I.

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post #14 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Where are you seeing the SCI for $500?

I would get the VTF-2MK4 anyway.

Newegg.

What's all better about HSU over SC1? Lower frequencies? Anything else?
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post #15 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post

Below the reference, I would only look for their small size and nice looks, especially if going in a family or living room. Please pm me if there is interest and no disrespect to any fans of the super cube 1.. I will most likely be lowering my price when the new audiogon site let's me login.

I've read good reviews & posts from owners, but no test measurements, of SC Reference & Trinity.

But I agree that < Reference, the WAF is the main reason for a buy. Physics are what they are, and to get to < 20 Hz, there is no replacement for a bigger woofer & bigger cabinet.

The other issue is distortion. In order to get to even the mid-20's with small WAF drivers, the mfg has to allow the woofer to have large back & forth excursions, typically causing higher distortion. From my reading, most of these small, lifestyle subs, like the SC 1 & 2, Sunfire Juniors, etc, the distortion levels are allowed to hit 10% or more.

Subs with DSP servo controls can achieve much lower distortion levels, with < 1% to 2-3% achievable by companies like Velodyne, SVS, and others already mentioned. Servo control is the key. And I know for a fact, the Supercube I does not have servo control since I own it and am familiar with its functionality.

The OP can get servo controlled, piano black finish, smallish subs that can reach at least down to 20 Hz or low 20's, that will out-perform the SC 1 and cost about $650-700. Just have to look at other companies

But your SC Reference's are in a whole different league in performance than the 1 & 2.
They'll make someone happy, I'm sure.

Steve
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post #16 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninor View Post

Newegg.

What's all better about HSU over SC1? Lower frequencies? Anything else?

When Tom Nousaine tested the SCI it ranked number 82 on his list, below products from HSU. The SCI could only manage 103 db average from 25Hz-62Hz.

"The SCI subwoofer could deliver about 109 db SPL between 50-62Hz, but response fell off at 18 db per octave below 50Hz and distortion limited the SPL at 40 Hz to 100db."

The HSU will be much more linear below 50Hz. As with the new generation of SCs, like the SC4000, the SCI is more of a mid-bass module compared to the better ported subs.
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post #17 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninor View Post

Newegg.

What's all better about HSU over SC1? Lower frequencies? Anything else?

Most likely, since the SC 1 is smaller than the Hsu and uses 2 side passive radiators to help the main driver, it has higher distortion levels to achieve its reasonable sound pressure levels across its freq range.

Try to find reviews that include test measurements on Supercubes. They don't exist. OTOH, many competitors submit their subs to reviewers that do include very extensive measurements, SPL vs freq charts, with tested % THD. I know this is true of companies like SVS, HSU, Velodyne. Those companies have no reservations about having their subs tested & compared. Unlike DefTech, who seems to use marketing, packaging, and un-realistic specs to sell their subs to owners of their main speakers.

I was trying to stay nice but since you asked, I have to give you the reasons why these subs get a bit of a bad rap on forums such as this. For the money, there are a lot better subwoofers out there from reputable companies that don't have a problem publishing real world specs and have their products reviewed objectively

Other than Tom Noussaine's test measurements of a variety of subs, I have never seen a review of any DT sub that had nothing but subjective, glowing, flowery-type remarks but no hard testing to back it up. Wonder why that is? Advertising $$ maybe Just look how many pages of DefTech ads are in mags like S&V, even more objective mags like Home Theater Mag aren't immune - and they've never tested DT subs to best of my knowledge.

Bottom line for me - did the SC 1 meet my own HT objectives? No.
That's why I spent thousands more for a Velodyne DD18 to be my main sub.

Would I buy a Supercube 1 again? No.
Much better & as good looking choices for the money.

Should the OP buy it for $500? That's his choice.
Maybe he's trying to match an existing DT speaker setup. But I would steer him to look at options before buying it

While HSU would not be my own personal 1st choice, I would take it over a Supercube 1 anyday.

Steve
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post #18 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

When Tom Nousaine tested the SCI it ranked number 82 on his list, below products from HSU. The SCI could only manage 103 db average from 25Hz-62Hz.

"The SCI subwoofer could deliver about 109 db SPL between 50-62Hz, but response fell off at 18 db per octave below 50Hz and distortion limited the SPL at 40 Hz to 100db."

The HSU will be much more linear below 50Hz. As with the new generation of SCs, like the SC4000, the SCI is more of a mid-bass module compared to the better ported subs.

Thanks for providing the supporting data to prove the point. Glad one of us still had the data

I highlighting the part that made my point about distortion. The test results speak for themselves.

Steve
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post #19 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

$500.00 is a pretty good deal for new sub SC1. Most of the subs that will out perform it are refrigeraor size or really expensive. I was looking for a SC1 but could not find one for anything close to $500. For a sub that small it does a pretty good job.

Valid point for sure. The SVS I just bought is almost twice this size and my wife is gonna HATE it!
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post #20 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rattmobbins View Post

Valid point for sure. The SVS I just bought is almost twice this size and my wife is gonna HATE it!

The SB12 is about the same size and will easily out perform the SC.

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post #21 of 43 Old 01-06-2012, 07:11 PM
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How does this sub compare to the Definitive Technology ProSub 1000. Would I notice a substantial difference between the two subs?
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post #22 of 43 Old 01-07-2012, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post

Hi guys- i am the guy on audiogon with a pair of deftech references on sale for $2300. I am glad to read this post as you have educated me that I might be asking too much I'd prefer to sell them as a pair and would consider $2000 for both together

In general, deftech gets a little bit of a bad deal on these forums with many slamming their subs. For their relative size and high wife acceptance factor, references put out some very nice output. I easily fill my 25 by 15 foot room that happens to be open with the volume set at just 10 o'clock. Having two really helps smooth out the bass. Nothing against the super cube 1, but I think the reference and trinity are both excellent subs worth taking a strong look at.

Below the reference, I would only look for their small size and nice looks, especially if going in a family or living room. Please pm me if there is interest and no disrespect to any fans of the super cube 1.. I will most likely be lowering my price when the new audiogon site let's me login.

Hey - no disrespect intended with my prior statement, just my observations. I recently bought and sold my trinity in the last few months and was amazed and how low they could be had. I think at 2k for the pair you would have a good deal of interest, they are fine subwoofers. Best of luck.


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post #23 of 43 Old 01-07-2012, 07:00 AM
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0


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post #24 of 43 Old 01-07-2012, 07:36 AM
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

Interesting. I was surprised how high up on that list the klipsch rw12d is. Doesn't quite go as low as some of the other 12 inch models, but still seems to significantly outperform the sc1?


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post #25 of 43 Old 01-07-2012, 08:42 AM
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I think it really depends on what you are looking for and in what kind of room.

I own a SC1 in my small HT, 12'x15'x8', and I love it along with a pair of BP7002. And back then when I build my HT, the little SB13+ isn't on the market or it'll be my #1 choice for "me" (small & good looking). A friend of mine has a SC Reference in his HT (approx. 14'x18'x9'), and I'm not impressed at all!

So I guess it really depends on the size of the volume/space that you are powering. And WAF is also a major factor too when you are buying a SC sub imho. Heck, I'm thinking to get a used SC2/3 for my bedroom too, and my wife has nothing against it!

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post #26 of 43 Old 01-07-2012, 09:27 AM
 
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The SB12 is about the same size and will easily out perform the SC.

If you have the extra bones to spend on the SB-12 than yes. The SB12 is $679, that's a $170.00 more, now I know that's not that much to some of you deep pocket forum members, but to some that's a huge increase, especially in these tough economic times.
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post #27 of 43 Old 01-07-2012, 11:20 AM
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If you have the extra bones to spend on the SB-12 than yes. The SB12 is $679, that's a $170.00 more, now I know that's not that much to some of you deep pocket forum members, but to some that's a huge increase, especially in these tough economic times.

It seems to me that anyone with $500 to spend on JUST a sub should be able to wrangle up another $170 pretty easily.

Nobody who lost their job in these "tough economic times" is going to be spending $500 on a subwoofer, or on a whole HTIB for that matter.
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post #28 of 43 Old 01-07-2012, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CincyAudio View Post

How does this sub compare to the Definitive Technology ProSub 1000. Would I notice a substantial difference between the two subs?

Pretty sure the SuperCube blows the ProSub 1000 out of the water, but again, there are better subs to be had for not much more money. Especially if you want low super deep bass.
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post #29 of 43 Old 01-07-2012, 03:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rattmobbins View Post

It seems to me that anyone with $500 to spend on JUST a sub should be able to wrangle up another $170 pretty easily.

Nobody who lost their job in these "tough economic times" is going to be spending $500 on a subwoofer, or on a whole HTIB for that matter.

You can only speak for yourself. That $170.00 can be difference between being able to afford the a sub or not, or that $500 dollars could be a person's max budget.
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post #30 of 43 Old 01-08-2012, 01:47 AM
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So according to Nousaine's List, the PSW505 is better than the Supercube 1? Can that be right? I currently have the PSW505 and was wondering if it would be an upgrade... However, Looking at the list, it doesnt seem like it would be much different.
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