Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 09:53 PM
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Well, the first time the thread 'vanished', Craig said he had to go to his son's swim meet. Maybe this time he's taking a shower.

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post #272 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I know the stuff going on is interesting and intriguing to say the least, but lets try and keep discussing the GTG and what we can take from and learn from for further GTG.

I'd like to see what people thought of the use of Audyssey vs the manual EQ. What do the readers of this think? Do you have the ability to EQ manually with your own mic? Or do you like the fact a GTG used Audyssey, which most owners have or an equal type of EQ?

Obviously, the people that are into measurements and the hardcore hobbyists mostly have their own measuring equipment....probably many purchasing these subs. I just wanted to get a feel for what the "public" thought.

Definitely agreed, returning to topic.

I like the use of Audyssey vs. manual EQ since I think it represents the majority of the audience and how they will implement subs in their own homes. However, if Audyssey is used then I think no other outside equalization should be added unless it is included on the amps shipped with the subs.

FYI, I own a Yamaha receiver that can't EQ subs. I have swept with REW, but have no way to EQ at the moment. When the time comes for me to upgrade, if REW sweeps show that my response needs some help, I will probably go with miniDSP.
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post #273 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I know the stuff going on is interesting and intriguing to say the least, but lets try and keep discussing the GTG and what we can take from and learn from for further GTG.

I'd like to see what people thought of the use of Audyssey vs the manual EQ. What do the readers of this think? Do you have the ability to EQ manually with your own mic? Or do you like the fact a GTG used Audyssey, which most owners have or an equal type of EQ?

Obviously, the people that are into measurements and the hardcore hobbyists mostly have their own measuring equipment....probably many purchasing these subs. I just wanted to get a feel for what the "public" thought.

Mark Seaton's suspicions were warranted. Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is too much of an unknown quantity to rely on it to EQ-for-parity for this type of engagement. In this specific case, its modifications were very inconsistent across the board. I think that likely had an impact on the perceptions and results, but there's no way to speculate how and where.

Granted, it's a TON of extra work to manually EQ the subs to reasonably flat. In a GTG like this, unless you have a total pro doing the work, and an easy, REW-integrated EQ setup like a miniDSP, it'll probably add an hour to each sub's setup time. (Sounded like you had that long between sub auditions anyway?) But, with REW, and unlike Audyssey XT32, you likely won't take 5-point sweeps. Just one. But I don't think that will actually impact anything, as I'm not sure that Audyssey can really widen the sub sweetspot like it claims to do with mains/surrounds.

Full disclosure - I don't have any experience with Audyssey MultEQ XT32. I only know what I've read and been told about it by salesmen and owners.


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post #274 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Mark Seaton's suspicions were warranted. Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is too much of an unknown quantity to rely on it to EQ-for-parity for this type of engagement. In this specific case, its modifications were very inconsistent across the board. I think that likely had an impact on the perceptions and results, but there's no way to speculate how and where.

Granted, it's a TON of extra work to manually EQ the subs to reasonably flat. In a GTG like this, unless you have a total pro doing the work, and an easy, REW-integrated EQ setup like a miniDSP, it'll probably add an hour to each sub's setup time. (Sounded like you had that long between sub auditions anyway?) But, with REW, and unlike Audyssey XT32, you likely won't take 5-point sweeps. Just one. But I don't think that will actually impact anything, as I'm not sure that Audyssey can really widen the sub sweetspot like it claims to do with mains/surrounds.

Full disclosure - I don't have any experience with Audyssey MultEQ XT32. I only know what I've read and been told about it by salesmen and owners.

I agree but I know I didn't want to do manual EQ work all day to have it scrutinized. His receiver was the year before 32 I believe and is a version of XT. I took Mark's statement about the mfw's having the flattest frequency running off of one amp channel response was because the XT version doesn't ping the subs together. The end seats that were used to create the so called "bubble" could have different frequency responses between the two subs. I have discussed this with Archaea before, but with his one row of seats and using his XT for his two middle good seats, it seems to be a non-issue for his purposes. I don't know though maybe I am way off base.

Anyhow it was the best we could do with what we had and no volunteers to work there butts off even harder than us for manual eq. It would be cool to do in the future though.
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post #275 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a short video that depicts the basics of the subwoofer meet setup and process.


"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #276 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

CHT's owner continues to shoot himself in the foot...

Why were Archaea's posts deleted? There's nothing wrong with them...Archaeas purpose is to share information, not to point fingers.

I also find his comments about Tesseract disturbing. I have always viewed Tesseract as quite knowledgeable in the subwoofer area, and Craigsub posts:

"For the record, the sub owner is Tesseract. He is a friend, but is also the first person to tell you he is no expert in subwoofer set up, especially in a home theater setting, as he runs nothing but two channel." He knocks the credibility of a person of whom is a volunteer moderator of the CHT forum as well as a CHT ambassador? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you???

I've often looked into CHT's products as a possible upgrade, but continue to pass based on this behavior. If I don't feel I can trust the owner, how can I trust their products?

The fact that he threw Tesseract under the bus is disturbing.
Posts deleted, the whole thread vanishing twice, trying to re-write history I guess.
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post #277 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 04:11 AM
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Guys, I don't feel thrown under the bus. I am a two channel guy with no Audyssey experience. Deciding to use the NU3000DSP was poor decision, one that I owned.

That said, anyone that makes a decision on the performance of the Chase subs based on this GTG is making a poor decision, too. The sound we heard there is uncharacteristic of the subs. They simply weren't receiving enough juice.

Off to work, try and behave.

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post #278 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 05:00 AM
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Did you guys happen to grab any pictures of the room like back to front showing seating positions and the table in the back? Just curious.


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post #279 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 05:33 AM
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Can someone please tell me where the subs were placed?

I take it they were in the exact same position each time. Just like to know where that position was.

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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post #280 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Guys, I don't feel thrown under the bus. I am a two channel guy with no Audyssey experience. Deciding to use the NU3000DSP was poor decision, one that I owned.

That said, anyone that makes a decision on the performance of the Chase subs based on this GTG is making a poor decision, too. The sound we heard there is uncharacteristic of the subs. They simply weren't receiving enough juice.

Off to work, try and behave.

Taking the bus to work today?

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post #281 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 06:13 AM
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I can't remember if I posted this here yet, but I just wanted to say a big thank you to Archaea and everyone else who brought subs and participated. It looked like an incredible amount of work and I appreciate your time and sacrifice(or maybe your kitchen floor's sacrifice) to pull this off.

Now I just have to wait another month for the next one.

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post #282 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Can someone please tell me where the subs were placed?

I take it they were in the exact same position each time. Just like to know where that position was.

They were placed to the right and left of the screen about 2 ft out from the wall. The mains were placed outside and to the front of the subs. You can see in the video above the sub is at the person's back.
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post #283 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Take a look at the post a few previous with the you tube link. And album link. It shows the room. My room is generally speaking using rounded down numbers - 20 foot wide by 25 foot deep by 7 foot tall. It has a big stone fireplace which eats up space and it has that hvac beam drop which plays havoc with the back of the room. The auditioners were placed in front of the hvac beam drop. The subs were all identically placed, facing out towards outside walls immediately on both sides of the projector screen. The youtube video and pictures link in the very first post should more or less show this.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #284 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I'd like to see what people thought of the use of Audyssey vs the manual EQ. What do the readers of this think? Do you have the ability to EQ manually with your own mic? Or do you like the fact a GTG used Audyssey, which most owners have or an equal type of EQ?

I like the K_I_S_S formula, which is why I purchased a receiver with Audyssey installed.

I used to drive myself crazy trying to achieve that "Perfect Sound", I dumped $$$ into building a dedicated 'SOUND-CAVE' buying way too many electronics, spending hours on HT sites trying to get new ideas, I would literally spend so much time trying to figure it out, before I finally realized,,, I was not enjoying what I had (plus all the friends & family that wanted/needed my help setting up & calibrating)...

Now, all I want is to be able to do a little research when I'm in the market for whatever (example Subs) get a few opinions, make a purchase, set it in place, do a simple calibration, layman's terms, Run Audyssey and enjoy.

So, I like the fact the GTG used the Audyssey-->

HH
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post #285 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I know the stuff going on is interesting and intriguing to say the least, but lets try and keep discussing the GTG and what we can take from and learn from for further GTG.

I'd like to see what people thought of the use of Audyssey vs the manual EQ. What do the readers of this think? Do you have the ability to EQ manually with your own mic? Or do you like the fact a GTG used Audyssey, which most owners have or an equal type of EQ?

Obviously, the people that are into measurements and the hardcore hobbyists mostly have their own measuring equipment....probably many purchasing these subs. I just wanted to get a feel for what the "public" thought.

Audyssey and the Anthem ARC are EQ systems that address multiple locations simultaneously as one process. A single point EQ will address only one point in the room. The advantages of the Audyssey/ARC approach should be obvious as are the trade offs. This goes beyond ease of use and simplicity issues. It is what it is...


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post #286 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

That said, anyone that makes a decision on the performance of the Chase subs based on this GTG is making a poor decision

I can't recall anyone even implying that at all. Classic damage control tactic by CHT. "If you do this you're blah blah blah, if you do that you're blah blah blah". Nice job fellows . What may possibly sway potential customers though (IMHO) is the way this is being handled by the powers that be over at Chase and its minions. The guys in KC had a good time, found out some intersting stuff, and now someone (guess who ) is causing a fuss over it all and putting a damper as best as they can over what sounded like a great time! From reading the posts, another contestants Owner/MFG also discovered that there may be some sort of an issue with the expected performance of his product. What does he do??? says "run with it". No excuses, no whining, no gathering the troops for a pep rally. This, to me, speakes volume on the character of the people behind these products.
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post #287 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post



I LOVE the local cinema rental idea...

LOVE IT
LOVE IT
LOVE IT

How cool would that be? Especially with the biggest boy subs in pairs (or more).

Jeff! Mark! Alex! How can we make this happen? I would fly anywhere in the US to be a part of that!

Jeff is putting a demo room together in his new digs. I can hear the cries of FOUL already


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post #288 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

I can't recall anyone even implying that at all. Classic damage control tactic by CHT. "If you do this you're blah blah blah, if you do that you're blah blah blah". Nice job fellows . What may possibly sway potential customers though (IMHO) is the way this is being handled by the powers that be over at Chase and its minions. The guys in KC had a good time, found out some intersting stuff, and now someone (guess who ) is causing a fuss over it all and putting a damper as best as they can over what sounded like a great time! From reading the posts, another contestants Owner/MFG also discovered that there may be some sort of an issue with the expected performance of his product. What does he do??? says "run with it". No excuses, no whining, no gathering the troops for a pep rally. This, to me, speakes volume on the character of the people behind these products.

This entire post is a waste of space. Craigs actions to me are that of a business owner trying to figure out what happened to cause his product to produce a noise they arent suppose to make. What would you do if you were in his shoes? Who are you calling minions? That, to me, speakes volume on the character of the person behind this post.
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post #289 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Spur Darren View Post

This entire post is a waste of space. Craigs actions to me are that of a business owner trying to figure out what happened to cause his product to produce a noise they arent suppose to make. What would you do if you were in his shoes? Who are you calling minions? That, to me, speakes volume on the character of the person behind this post.

If I were in his or any other ID vendors shoes and wanted the best chance for my gear to shine, I would have:

Gone to the event and worked with the guys to get it right
and/or
Sent the subs and amps I wanted to have included to the GTG.

Monday morning quarterbacking the work of the team could have been avoided (theoretically) if either of the above had been done.
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post #290 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 07:48 AM
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Damaging the home is a constant thing for me so you better get used to it! I have broken marble, lights, projector falling from the shelf, blurays falling off shelves, etc.... Once the door handle fell off so I had to make sure it was super tight. It did one thing for me, it made me fix the room to be bass safe with no unwanted noises, the rest of the house is not that lucky! Oh, and I am using CHT subs to do this!
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post #291 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 08:33 AM
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The whole website is down now.

Personally I didn't think the CHT sub was sounding bad all the time (this statement was made on the other site). I only heard 2 real bad noises (granted I was the wuss with earplugs though), one during the sweep and one on kung fu panda.

I didn't hear anything close to a bad noise on any of the music, can the other blind guys attest to that?

Could it be that the room was just really tough and the sub and amp were working fine?

I can speak to the fact that the room is indeed a black hole when it comes to bass.... until the OS were fired up that is.


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post #292 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

A real gtg question: in future events are people willing to arrive a day early and setup and eq all subs? downtime issues like ours could be fixed if all subs were on hand before. would this help the process or not?

I think that would be smart and limit the number to about 4-5 setups. Mark brought up a great idea that we should probably have blind testing the night before so everyone has an idea before we start rating the next day. The only problem I see with that is some may have listening fatigue the next day before it actually starts.

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post #293 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 09:01 AM
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The whole website is down now.

Yeah. The server is fine and responding, but the website has been disabled by the site administrator. I'm sure it's just part of the SOPA/PIPA protest, though, right?

Oh wait, now it's back up, but with a completely 100% edited last post on the thread. It's now the "kinder, gentler" owner completely distancing himself from throwing tesseract under the bus, and diplomatically asking for interested parties to "put themselves in his shoes." All of this while simultaneously trashing Archaea and HuskerOmaha as having become brainwashed by AVS. To him: these are guys who were ardent supporters of your product before you started this campaign of deceit, misinformation, and manipulation. The guy just can't seem to help himself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Personally I didn't think the CHT sub was sounding bad all the time (this statement was made on the other site). I only heard 2 real bad noises (granted I was the wuss with earplugs though), one during the sweep and one on kung fu panda.

I didn't hear anything close to a bad noise on any of the music, can the other blind guys attest to that?

Could it be that the room was just really tough and the sub and amp were working fine?

I can speak to the fact that the room is indeed a black hole when it comes to bass.... until the OS were fired up that is.

I think at this point it's been firmly established that there was clipping occurring, but, as many people (myself included) have pointed out, that doesn't account for its lower score on everything else, across the boards of (nearly) all participants. I don't think it was the room. I think it was a combination of the clipping on two or three demos, the effect that had on the blind auditioners, and the fact that it was just outclassed all around at those volume levels.

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Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

I think that would be smart and limit the number to about 4-5 setups. Mark brought up a great idea that we should probably have blind testing the night before so everyone has an idea before we start rating the next day. The only problem I see with that is some may have listening fatigue the next day before it actually starts.

I agree with all of that. I think time constraints, technical requirements, and the stress of running the GTG contributed to Archaea not implementing those suggestions. For the future, though, you can be sure that he and others are going to want to cover their a$$es by doing something like this, if for no other reason than to avoid the fallout from the sore losers.

LUCKILY, not many other manufacturers within the industry act this way, so most folks won't have to worry about it too much.


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post #294 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 09:03 AM
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I am going to have a sub shootout in the future(March). I will buy dual submersives and dual Cap sealed subs to compare to my 4 SS18.2 with clone amp(FP10000Q). I will also build two dual opposed LMS 5400 sealed subs with FP14's. Anyone one you wants in is welcome but my room is small so first come first serve.

Hey, BTW, if one EQ's manually how do you get every seat to sound the same? Won't you have the same problem as Audyssey did? I am lucky in that my room was similar responses through every seat with some early rolloff in the upper frequencies from the back seats compared to the front seats. If everything goes well this shotout will happen and then I will sell what I don't keep for a discount. I don't like returning things if I can sell them. I will cover everything from cheap multiples to expensive DIY. My front screen is big enough to hide all the subs at once but I can only wire 8 subs up at once. Switching will be done in a different room(moving the speaker wires from one amp to the next. Passives would be so easy to do and I could run the same amp on all but if not I can always buy long XLR cables for all the subs.
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post #295 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 09:11 AM
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I've been following the thread here and the one over on CHT and, IMO, Craig has once again seriously mishandled an issue relating to his company and its products. And I think that's a damned shame.

Pointing fingers at solid CHT supporters like HuskerOmaha and tesseract - as well as at Archaea - was a seriously bad move. Editing or deleting posts to tailor the discussion, however, is an absolute sin. (I've pointed this out on the CHT site before.)

I've lost respect for Craig. And, so, while I will continue to enjoy my SS-18.T subs - they sound great in my HT space! - and my SHO-10s (until I can find a buyer for them, since I prefer my Studio 60s overall), I won't be buying anything from CHT anymore. I've wiped my CHT profile clean and I won't be going back.

(To be perfectly clear: This is NOT a knock against any of CHT's products.)

I sincerely wish Craig, CHT and all the guys on the CHT forum all the best.


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post #296 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Yeah. The server is fine and responding, but the website has been disabled by the site administrator. I'm sure it's just part of the SOPA/PIPA protest, though, right?

Oh wait, now it's back up, but with a completely 100% edited last post on the thread. It's now the "kinder, gentler" owner completely distancing himself from throwing tesseract under the bus, and diplomatically asking for interested parties to "put themselves in his shoes." All of this while simultaneously trashing Archaea and HuskerOmaha as having become brainwashed by AVS. To him: these are guys who were ardent supporters of your product before you started this campaign of deceit, misinformation, and manipulation. The guy just can't seem to help himself.




I think at this point it's been firmly established that there was clipping occurring, but, as many people (myself included) have pointed out, that doesn't account for its lower score on everything else, across the boards of (nearly) all participants. I don't think it was the room. I think it was a combination of the clipping on two or three demos, the effect that had on the blind auditioners, and the fact that it was just outclassed all around at those volume levels.



I agree with all of that. I think time constraints, technical requirements, and the stress of running the GTG contributed to Archaea not implementing those suggestions. For the future, though, you can be sure that he and others are going to want to cover their a$$es by doing something like this, if for no other reason than to avoid the fallout from the sore losers.

LUCKILY, not many other manufacturers within the industry act this way, so most folks won't have to worry about it too much.

When I say working fine I don't mean there wasn't clipping, I mean maybe they were clipping because the room was so tough and that's why they didn't sound right to the people who have heard them before.


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post #297 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am going to have a sub shootout in the future(March). I will buy dual submersives and dual Cap sealed subs to compare to my 4 SS18.2 with clone amp(FP10000Q). I will also build two dual opposed LMS 5400 sealed subs with FP14's. Anyone one you wants in is welcome but my room is small so first come first serve.

Hey, BTW, if one EQ's manually how do you get every seat to sound the same?

You don't unless you have a magic room ... apparently you do ...


Quote:


Won't you have the same problem as Audyssey did?

Worse ...

Quote:


My front screen is big enough to hide all the subs at once but I can only wire 8 subs up at once. Switching will be done in a different room(moving the speaker wires from one amp to the next. Passives would be so easy to do and I could run the same amp on all but if not I can always buy long XLR cables for all the subs.


Umm, this might be problemmatic as I recall a discussion on this in another thread and a point was made that the unused subs will act as resonaters thus altering the results. That plus they would need to be stacked or in different locations so the results would be positionally inconsistent.

All that said, it would be a lot of fun ...


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post #298 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 09:39 AM
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I vote with my money and I vote to spend it with mfr's who act professionally. Lots of sub choices out in this world...
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post #299 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I've been following the thread here and the one over on CHT and, IMO, Craig has once again seriously mishandled an issue relating to his company and its products. And I think that's a damned shame.

Pointing fingers at solid CHT supporters like HuskerOmaha and tesseract - as well as at Archaea - was a seriously bad move. Editing or deleting posts to tailor the discussion, however, is an absolute sin. (I've pointed this out on the CHT site before.)

I've lost respect for Craig. And, so, while I will continue to enjoy my SS-18.T subs - they sound great in my HT space! - and my SHO-10s (until I can find a buyer for them, since I prefer my Studio 60s overall), I won't be buying anything from CHT anymore. I've wiped my CHT profile clean and I won't be going back.

(To be perfectly clear: This is NOT a knock against any of CHT's products.)

I sincerely wish Craig, CHT and all the guys on the CHT forum all the best.


I am very saddened to see all this happening. Craig has worked very hard to develop some high value products and a good reputation among many. But in one evening/morning of despotic behavior he has done incredible damage to all those efforts. Trust and goodwill take a long time to develop, but can be shattered in an instant.

The best thing he could do at this point I think is to say he just blew it in the way he has thus far handled events, and make a massive apology to those he has wronged. Unfortunately I don't think he is capable of that. It's a shame.

Rod
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post #300 of 848 Old 01-18-2012, 10:20 AM
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Regarding Audyssey vs. manual EQ, I think the results from test to test can vary more with Audyssey, but it is a tool many/most have an would use. As such, I think the continued use of it is a plus. While Audyssey may (or may not) boost the signal, I like to hear about how the items being tested dealt with that since room EQ is so prevalent.

I have a question for Husker Omaha in regards to his comments on the Cap S. You mentioned that they sounded "hollow" on some material, can you expand on that? I am not sure I am following what you saying correctly.

Thanks to all for the effort, this is a great thread and it had to be a Herculean effort. Also I think it is quite cool that both Mark and Jeff were able to make this and the Omaha GTG and offer input.


Quote:
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I am very saddened to see all this happening. Craig has worked very hard to develop some high value products and a good reputation among many. But in one evening/morning of despotic behavior he has done incredible damage to all those efforts. Trust and goodwill take a long time to develop, but can be shattered in an instant.

Sadly, this doesn't appear to be a one time/one thread issue, but more of a pattern.

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