Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 848 Old 03-28-2012, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Probably more like 98-99% of the time. But it's the 1 to 2% that we are debating.

Oh if it is only the 1 or 2% I don't know why we are even wasting our time. All that theoretical math ignoring room acoustics or max versus peak spl for nothing .


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Wow, I've been gone for a few weeks from this forum and am quite surprised that the bickering and accusations are still being tossed about. As a good friend of my would say......there's nothing but a bunch of little girls here. Geezzz.

Just because it is little does not qualify me as a girl .

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge - Stephen Hawking

 

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post #602 of 848 Old 03-28-2012, 08:52 PM
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The problem I see is that this thread gets more action when there is negativity going on when the guys did a great job. It seems most like controversy more than the hard work and fun that actually took place. This is sad! Anyways I have heard cap1000's, SS 18.1's, and 18.2's and I have my opinion but it would never be all this negativity.

Whenever I give an opinion I am always asked to prove this or that or question every little thing if I said something wrong. I say it was just an opinion and then I try to measure and buy gear to please the masses here(naysayers) because I don't have an agenda, just love this hobby! I even have more subs to test soon just because I am curious! When did this stuff become let's make fun or jump on the bandwagon when we can rather than having fun. BTW this all seems familiar because it is the same crap, different time! Ok enough about this stuff, anyone want to come and here 3 different sub systems all running on clones with DCX. Now that is fun!
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post #603 of 848 Old 03-28-2012, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by polizzio View Post

I'm with you. I have thought long and hard about purchasing a pair of Chase SS18.1 subs and amp, but Craig Chase's lack of character prevent me from doing so. Its not Chase subwoofer performance which prevents me from purchasing, its Craig Chase himself. I was so close to trying them out but his history of locking, deleting threads, changing threads, of doing dishonest things prevents me. He even one time declared on the Chase forum he would donate like $4000 dollars to some charity because his behavior was so poor, that he was less than forthright about handling discussions and insulting people post Archaea's GTG. At one time, he hung tesseract out to dry for the GTG errors but later recanted that. These traits are the prevailing mentality on his forum. How can I purchase products from such an business owner? Where his word means little. And a large portion of his fanboy base condone his behavior, they make excuses for him.

Darrenspur deleted an entire Chase sub thread here at avs when it wasn't going like they wished. He was the originator of the thread. Couple days it was here, then it was gone. Parts of it are reposted at chase forums under the tutelage of Craig................wonder why?

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Originally Posted by polizzio View Post

Or maybe his username was spurdarren.....I cannot recall exactly right now.

Spur Darren, just looked it up.

Wow some of you must need to more to do. The fact that you searched to find my name proves that.

I am not sure why everyone thinks that I am some how connected to CHT. I have NO connection other than I bought a couple of subs from them.

I also didnt delete an entire Chase sub thread. I deleted a thread that I started of my opinions on my new sub compared to my previous setup. I had a new toy and I wanted to give my opinions on it. I ended up basically being told that I wasnt intelligent enough to set up my previous subs to get them to sound right or that I was a liar. The thread was around only for a couple of days because I finally had enough of the bs. I was never asked to post anything here and I was never asked to take anything down.

For the mods who I will assume are following this thread very closely I would like to add that I didnt renew my AVS Club membership based on my recent experiences here.
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post #604 of 848 Old 03-28-2012, 09:21 PM
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If you guys think I am biased I have spent more money on eD and JTR compared to CHT products! As a matter of fact I have a JTR system I have to go tweak that I purchased for a friend. I am installing a custom center T8LP and finally putting the grills on his dual Cap1000's! I have another friend who has a single 18.1 and 3 Sho-10's I bought for him and tweaked. I can always go to their homes to remind me what those products sound like!
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post #605 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 01:06 AM
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This thread is totally awesome.
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post #606 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 04:56 AM
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I'm surprised that the mod hasn't locked this thread.

Its like watching a train crash. Can't stop reading it. aaaagh.

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post #607 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

That's because it probably was louder in your room. What did you measure the 120db with?

In the blind shootout, the omnimic was used to measure SPL. The folks there recorded Peak SPL, not Max SPL. Peak SPL is just the peak of the waveform and has no time constraint to it. Max SPL is an RMS measurement, and replicates SPL that we 'hear'.

RS SPL Meters and the like record 'Max' numbers typically, not 'Peak'. In my tests with Omnimic, Peak SPL is inflated by 8-10db compared to Max SPL. It's not exact, but it's likely you were hearing 110 or so Max SPL at the meet in the example above.

120 was on Luke's omnimic but it was max, not peak. Peak was around 130 if I remember right which matches up with what you are saying. Ok, that makes more sense then, thanks.


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post #608 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

That's because it probably was louder in your room. What did you measure the 120db with?

In the blind shootout, the omnimic was used to measure SPL. The folks there recorded Peak SPL, not Max SPL. Peak SPL is just the peak of the waveform and has no time constraint to it. Max SPL is an RMS measurement, and replicates SPL that we 'hear'.

RS SPL Meters and the like record 'Max' numbers typically, not 'Peak'. In my tests with Omnimic, Peak SPL is inflated by 8-10db compared to Max SPL. It's not exact, but it's likely you were hearing 110 or so Max SPL at the meet in the example above.

I'd be interested to know how exactly Omnimic records both 'MAX' and 'PEAK' to better understand what you're saying here.

C-weighting prohibits an accurate measurement of both of those metrics with the source material used at the G2G. That's one reason of many why the wild speculation here and elsewhere about the numbers and what they should have been is nonsense.

Bosso
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post #609 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

If you guys think I am biased I have spent more money on eD and JTR compared to CHT products! As a matter of fact I have a JTR system I have to go tweak that I purchased for a friend. I am installing a custom center T8LP and finally putting the grills on his dual Cap1000's! I have another friend who has a single 18.1 and 3 Sho-10's I bought for him and tweaked. I can always go to their homes to remind me what those products sound like!

MK can I be your friend? Then my wife will stop complaining I spend too much $$ on audio equipment
...j/k I sometimes buy HT equipment for friends who like my HT but don't know enough to purchase high performance per dollar ID gear for themselves.
Tim
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post #610 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

As a matter of fact I have a JTR system I have to go tweak that I purchased for a friend.
I have another friend who has a single 18.1 and 3 Sho-10's I bought for him and tweaked.

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I sometimes buy HT equipment for friends who like my HT but don't know enough to purchase high performance per dollar ID gear for themselves.

I'm always purchasing TVs, Receiver's, DVD/Blu-Ray Players, Speakers, Subs, accessories, etc. for my friends who ask for help/advice because they think I know all about HT equipment-->

I tell them about websites that offer good deals and can be trusted, I offer to get it for them, after it's delivered, I install it, they pay me in cash. I use my Rewards Bearing CC, builds up points fast, then I purchase toys for myself-->

HH
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post #611 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

If you guys think I am biased I have spent more money on eD and JTR compared to CHT products! As a matter of fact I have a JTR system I have to go tweak that I purchased for a friend. I am installing a custom center T8LP and finally putting the grills on his dual Cap1000's! I have another friend who has a single 18.1 and 3 Sho-10's I bought for him and tweaked. I can always go to their homes to remind me what those products sound like!

MK...i'm not saying you are biased, but the amount of money you spend on something does not show bias or the lack of it.

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post #612 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 01:04 PM
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What ... there was a shootout at Arch's place?

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #613 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 01:10 PM
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What ... there was a shootout at Arch's place?

Open Range?

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post #614 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

MK...i'm not saying you are biased, but the amount of money you spend on something does not show bias or the lack of it.

I know, I am just saying I have no loyalty any company except for what I like. Even if I like something I tend to sell it anyways. I just think all this negativity is sad, well, the increased activity it creates is sad. I know things happen but to have the same things said by the same people over and over gets old because this thread was a good one. The GTG's and comparisons are interesting and fun for the attendees and none of them are perfect. Everytime I test something someone reminds to do something and I say crap! I forgot to do that! I try to remember to do them next time.
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I know, I am just saying I have no loyalty any company except for what I like. Even if I like something I tend to sell it anyways. I just think all this negativity is sad, well, the increased activity it creates is sad. I know things happen but to have the same things said by the same people over and over gets old because this thread was a good one. The GTG's and comparisons are interesting and fun for the attendees and none of them are perfect. Everytime I test something someone reminds to do something and I say crap! I forgot to do that! I try to remember to do them next time.

MK, I agree mostly with the above. Graig is his own worst enemy. His antics causes 81.3 percent of the drama. People just have to ask questions and make comments. If he didn't go overboard then most of it would be civil and die off. (imho)
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post #616 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 04:32 PM
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It does not matter who starts what because if something is happening elsewhere it should not be brought here anyways. It reminds me of my little 5 year old girl telling on her sister. I just like to see good threads. As this is going on I have dismantled my theater once again for a change! Anyone want some gear!
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post #617 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It does not matter who starts what because if something is happening elsewhere it should not be brought here anyways. It reminds me of my little 5 year old girl telling on her sister. I just like to see good threads. As this is going on I have dismantled my theater once again for a change! Anyone want some gear!

Yes. I can arrange for a pick up. Thanks.
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post #618 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It does not matter who starts what because if something is happening elsewhere it should not be brought here anyways. It reminds me of my little 5 year old girl telling on her sister. I just like to see good threads. As this is going on I have dismantled my theater once again for a change! Anyone want some gear!

What ya selling bro?? Are the 18.2's gonzo??

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post #619 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 04:43 PM
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What ya selling bro?? Are the 18.2's gonzo??

Not yet.
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post #620 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 05:04 PM
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Not yet.

Let me know, my buddy might be interested.

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post #621 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 06:05 PM
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Pm me I have 3 left.
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Pm me I have 3 left.

PM sent

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post #623 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I'd be interested to know how exactly Omnimic records both 'MAX' and 'PEAK' to better understand what you're saying here.

C-weighting prohibits an accurate measurement of both of those metrics with the source material used at the G2G. That's one reason of many why the wild speculation here and elsewhere about the numbers and what they should have been is nonsense.

Bosso

Unfortunately, I don't know that level of detail. This is what Bill Walso has said. I could see if he could chime in to answer.

Not sure this helps, but this link explains the difference between Peak and Max:

http://www.noisemeters.com/help/faq/min-max-peak.asp

As far as the weighting, you're right if they were using C-Weighting. However, in OM, it is possible to remove the weighting so it is flat. If they measured without any weighting and took MAX readings, I believe that should be accurate.


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post #624 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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And to further complicate matters we took the reading in the back of the room in a boomy, muddy sounding area that registers 5-7 dB less than the main listening position from some retest confirmation noted in this link.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...387178&page=14

The mic was in the same position, and the SPL measurements were more just for curiosity. I need to borrow a rat shack meter and compare to the omnimic.

Luke Kamp - have you done any back and forth comparison. I know the max and the peak numbers on the omnimic are ~ the same when you settle out on a AVR test tone, but during music and movies they are not the same.

It probably would have been for the better if I hadn't put SPL measurements in either of these KC meets - people on the whole get too wrapped up in that one element of data.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #625 of 848 Old 03-29-2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

And to further complicate matters we took the reading in the back of the room in a boomy, muddy sounding area that registers 5-8dB less than the main listening position from some retest confirmation noted in this link.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...387178&page=14

The mic was in the same position, and the SPL measurements were more just for curiosity. I need to borrow a rat shack meter and compare to the omnimic.

Luke Kamp - have you done any back and forth comparison. I know the max and the peak numbers on the omnimic are ~ the same when you settle out on a AVR test tone, but during music and movies they are not the same.

It probably would have been for the better if I hadn't put SPL measurements in either of these KC meets - people on the whole get too wrapped up in that one element of data.


The max and peak are different by ~8-10 on movie content on mine. I believe dominguez1 has it correct. I might check against rat shack if I get around to it. You are welcome to borrow mine if you want to do some testing.

Yes the numbers are pretty meaningless. In a poor response area away from lp, and taken over all of test run. Audyssey set the levels and sub channel was raised the same between subs, so they should all measure the same in a perfect world (no compression, audyssey set freq. response all the same...) Not representative of maximum output and not at any particular frequency.

edit: I am interested in learning more about Jeff's explanation of why his measured higher. Something to do with power response, inductance, or sensitivity I think. My memory is getting a bit foggy after the amount of time passed. Should have asked more then.
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post #626 of 848 Old 03-30-2012, 10:50 PM
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slow down...

That isn't the case... There were four of us that Friday night previous to the subwoofer meet day that auditioned the INuke on the CHT subs and helped set the DSP to flat. kwarny, desertdome, tesseract67 and myself. We tried both 8ohm dual mono (stereo) and 4ohm bridged. Tesseract67 liked the sound of the 8ohm dual mono better. I let Tesseract67 lead on the amp choice in every way - I offered the Inuke option with a configured DSP to assist the CHT subs in having a more flat eq which would allow the comparison to be more equitable since all the other subs except the CHT subs and the Captivator pros had some sort of factory/vendor calibration. Tesseract67 already acknowledged that he was responsible for the choice and amp configuration of his setup. We auditioned the subs on the INnuke that Friday night and ran through some of the playlist after setting the DSP on Friday night. The bad noises experienced during the movie clips on Saturday's blind meet were heard on Friday night and I clearly discussed and warned Tesseract that we should not have any noise like that occurring in this meet because none of the other subs would have that noise. Tesseract67 said he liked the way the subs sounded otherwise and was willing to deal with a bit of whatever the noise (amp/sub whatever) was for the benefit of a flat frequency response and the additional bottom end for the other majority of the clips that the Inuke provided. The other two guys in the room will back me up on this I'm sure if there is any question. Tesseract was very enthusiastic about the sound. Had we more time we might have been able to fiddle with the DSP a bit more to get rid of the clip or overdriven noise, but we didn't. It was getting late and as you know we had a big long day planned the next day. We didn't listen to every clip and we had to make a decision in a short amount of time. The DSP wasn't vetted in full, but it was chosen as the amp setting. The FR looked much flatter than no dsp on Friday night and still was flat on Sunday when I pulled it up for the retest with omnimic.

My room is tough to drive. We overdrove to distortion every single sub in the last May 2011 subwoofer get together in my room including the powered cap and submersive (granted the volume was not set and we were playing with each sub to find limits). The CHT 18 drivers are not as robust as some of the other drivers in the meet and because they are passive drivers they don't have any limiters set in any onboard amp. Distortion will occur whether by sub or amp (or in this case both in my observance) as the limits are pressed - and we did press their limits. There is no way about it. This isn't a me vs. anyone or any company argument. I, nor our group doesn't have any hidden agenda in any form. I've pm'ed Craig on his CHT forums and told him that we encountered distortion on his drivers without clipping on our retest on Sunday in the 100hz to 20hz sine wave sweep - as I mentioned in a previous post, so it wasn't soley the amp. The distortion occurred during the music only during the sine wave, and when amp was only showing 2-3 signal lights - not clipping. While this distortion occurred the clip lights never came on. Tesseract and I thought it might be the room, but later day testing with Luke Kamp's subs showed it was not the room, nor did any of the other subs make that distortion noise at the 20hz end of the spectrum during the meet according to what I've heard, read through comments and seen posted. I offered to send craig the omnimic test results from our Sunday testing for review if he wants. The offer stands. Audyssey did not double boost the FR on Sunday's retest - in fact it cut it a dB or 2 right at 20hz off the same saved config that we used for the meet (set Friday night).

To the point of the subs auditioning better with the alternate amp. On Sunday we listened to the Dayton amp and did many measurements and while it didn't distort that I heard, it had significantly less bottom end - as in 50% or so less near 20hz (4dB). It wasn't tactile at all in my room, even from the main listening position. That wouldn't have been good for blind scores either - because the CHT blind audition was already noted as being a bass lite audition even with the DSP applied. Since we had a set volume on the subs, I'm of the reasonable opinion the scores would not have been better with less bass --- especially if the auditioners confirm the music selection did not have any distortion heard (outside of the initial sine sweep during the saturday lineup). The movies may have been a wash -- less bass in trade for a few distored clips...pick your poison. The CHT on the Inuke hit 118dB from our control desk 17 foot way in the back of the room. That's in line with expectations. It is quite possible that the 20 or so subwoofer drivers in the room, the additional people and additional equipment all sucked up the subs energy and pushed the subs a little harder than our friday night tests and our Sunday day tests and that there was more distortion during the blind listening test based on a bit hotter Audyssey config than in our two demo sessions beore and after -- I can't accurately speak to it because I wasn't sitting in the seating area during Saturday's meet, and neither can Luke or Tesseract because we were all in the back where everything sounded muddy all day.

Summarily - expectations were probably too high for the CHT subs on an unvetted amp and slight 20hz boost (+4dB) dsp config. After hearing the Dayton amp in my room on Sunday in the same timeframe as hearing the INuke, I think the CHT drivers preformed better on the Inuke amp than they would have on the Dayton amp, and so did Tessseract at the time of our retesting and he acknowledged so to me. The CHT subs sounded 'good' as I already said, not great - good -- in comparison to the other more expensive offerings....
To expect the less expensive drivers to compete with more expensive drivers with higher quality amps in a tough room was an inflated expectation.

Yes, the CHT drivers are very light....IMO that is what makes them so musical (which is why I was a bit shocked at the results) but also is why they are so aggressively priced.
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post #627 of 848 Old 03-30-2012, 10:51 PM
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Are you the same dude from 6speedonline.com with the GT2? If so, good to see you on here. I had a 996tt a few years ago and was on there as well...

Yes, same dude
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Yes, same dude

Right on man! I see you found another hobby, haha


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post #629 of 848 Old 04-01-2012, 03:04 PM
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I'd be interested to know how exactly Omnimic records both 'MAX' and 'PEAK' to better understand what you're saying here.

C-weighting prohibits an accurate measurement of both of those metrics with the source material used at the G2G. That's one reason of many why the wild speculation here and elsewhere about the numbers and what they should have been is nonsense.

Bosso


I am not sure why PEAK levels are used at all in that to a certain extent they are meaningless unless someone mentions the PEAK SPL level that was used in calibration (AKA the apples to apples SPL baseline). It seems that a nominal calibration level of 75 dB SPL C scale average comes out to be about 77 dB SPL C scale MAX and 87 dB SPL C scale PEAK.


This link may be of help.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21849189
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post #630 of 848 Old 04-01-2012, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I am not sure why PEAK levels are used at all in that to a certain extent they are meaningless unless someone mentions the PEAK SPL level that was used in calibration (AKA the apples to apples SPL baseline). It seems that a nominal calibration level of 75 dB SPL C scale average comes out to be about 77 dB SPL C scale MAX and 87 dB SPL C scale PEAK.


This link may be of help.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21849189

Peak and max read almost the exact same during AVR test tones in my limited testing when you use c weighted and slowest and reset the SPL capture. I guess I need to try it again to verify, but I played with it one night and that's what I noted. Peak and max definately vary more with real world material - both music and movies. We used peak for the meet because I didn't know any better.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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