Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 23 - AVS Forum
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post #661 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 06:12 AM
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Like Kyle was saying the 118 db thing was not right. 118 was peak on the omnimic. To give you an idea, the following are the highest numbers I have ever seen in my room at the listening position:

Omnimic Peak: 130 db
Omnimic Max: 120 db
Radio Shack C weighted fast: 117 db

So I'm betting the highest spl at Archaea's place was 108 at the most (during the blind part anyway).
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post #662 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Again, I think the bad performance of the CHT subs was from using the Behringer I-Nuke 3000 in stereo mode. Craig had an Inuke tested, and it managed to deliver 230 watts into 40 Hz (RMS).

Another test had it delivering 312 watts RMS at 1000 Hz.

This 312 watts at 1000 Hz meshes well with this type of amp delivering 230 watts at 40 Hz.

For the sake of argument, though, let us stipulate that the I-Nuke can deliver 312 watts all the way down to 20 Hz.

The case was made that the CHT subwoofers, as a pair, delivered 118.1 dB at 17 feet. This is a little over 5 meters from the LP.

A pair of CHT subwoofers in the sealed enclosures can deliver, at 4 meters outdoors, 103.6 dB at 30 Hz (with 624 watts). While 30 Hz is not the "lowest tone available", and all sealed subwoofers will have less output at 20 Hz than 30 Hz, 30 Hz was selected for this analysis. This means one is "erring on the side of the match working against the analysis, not with it".

Let us assume that, at 30 Hz, we achieved a full 9 dB in boundary gain at Archaea's theater. Based on what people experienced, 9 dB of boundary gain is being generous, but let's use it.

This means the subwoofers would be delivering 112.6 dB at 30 Hz at clipping. (624 watts).

The subwoofers were delivering appx. 6 dB higher levels of SPL, which meansn the I-Nukes were attempting to deliver a total of appx. 2400 watts, or 1200 watts per channel.

As the I-Nukes also had the built in limiter turned off, what people were experiencing was HEAVY clipping in an inexpensive amplifier.

Why choose 30hz for your calculations? Why not 40hz or 60hz? We do not know what frequencies were trying to be reproduced when that 118db was recorded. In order to know what SPL could be reproduced by the CHT subs with 300 watts, isn't it impossible without knowing what frequencies were trying to be reproduced combined with the frequency response at the measurement location?

Archea posted early on that the inuke did clip with the CHT subs during a number of the movie demos. Nobody should disagree with that.

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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


Now - as to movie clips - during some of the heaviest bass movie scenes with our Sunday testing the clip light was on solid... So take all of this in stride, but you can rest assurred the amp did drive to clipping on the skadoosh scene and potentially other movie scenes as the inuke amp apparently didn't have enough guts at 8ohm stereo to drive the subs at the levels demanded on the most heavy LFE scenes.

What we don't know for sure is how often it was clipping during the blind testing. We also don't know what subjective differences there would have been if the dayton amp was used. Would the dayton also have run out of headroom? Would it have shut off? Would it have made any of the noises the inuke did? Would it have sounded as good overall?

IMHO, the only absolutely conclusive thing I took away from this GTG about the CHT subs is that the inuke did not have enough power to drive a pair of 18.1s in stereo, in Archea's room, at the levels chosen, for all of the material chosen and that with a more powerful amp, they would have performed differently during the times the inuke clipped. Would they have also have performed better with a more powerful amp when the inuke didn't clip? I don't know.

-Mike
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post #663 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 10:03 AM
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Tess I believe stated that in his opinion, the subs sounded better with the iNuke rather than the Dayton.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #664 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 10:04 AM
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My subs sound much better with more power and low end boost. I would want to know why a 18.2 sound great and a pair of 18.1's did not, it should be similar. I don't care what the reason would be just that it was different in the first place.

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post #665 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 10:51 AM
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The 18.1's didn't sound bad!! Just because they were my least favorite at the meet doesn't mean that. The Klipsch subs sounded flabby to me but all the rest of the subs sounded tight. Some more so than others (to my ears the Submersives were in a class by themselves) but none of them were boomy crap subs like the Cerwin Vega sub I had back in the 90's.

I think that has been the misconception, that the 18.1's sounded crappy. NOT the case IMO, maybe some of the other guys in the blind test can back me up on that.
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post #666 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My subs sound much better with more power and low end boost. I would want to know why a 18.2 sound great and a pair of 18.1's did not, it should be similar. I don't care what the reason would be just that it was different in the first place.

Different room, different EQ, different playback levels, different expectations, sighted vs blind, and possibly because of a different amp.

We know the inuke clipped during some of the movie scenes, but did it have a negative impact when it wasn't clipping? Some people seem to believe yes and others no. When the two amps were compared after the gtg, the inuke (when it wasn't clipping) was subjectively preferred over the dayton. But the conditions were slightly different than during the blind testing, so IMHO, there is no way to know for sure what the results would have been with the dayton.

-mike
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post #667 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My subs sound much better with more power and low end boost. I would want to know why a 18.2 sound great and a pair of 18.1's did not, it should be similar. I don't care what the reason would be just that it was different in the first place.

Before the Omaha GTG, I have not heard my speakers or sub for a few months since I left these at home. Mostly everything sounded good. The Kansas City GTG was after winter break so I had three weeks to listen to my dialed in setup. I also went to a few high end stores and demoed different speakers. So after the Omaha GTG and winter break, I had more experience and found what I really liked. My reference bar was set higher. I was asked to grade based on what I thought about the setup instead of how it compared to another one. The scores I gave to setups was one of the lowest. Every setup could of been optimized better but this was a test with set rules. I also didn't have to worry about offending any manufacturers since it was a blind test.

There are more variables than just clipping a few times. Maybe it was the pizza.

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge - Stephen Hawking

 

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post #668 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

There are more variables than just clipping a few times. Maybe it was the pizza.

Ha, seriously that could have had an impact. Did we eat before or after sub D? We were getting grumpy waiting on the pizza I do remember that... Whatever sub was before lunch had a disadvantage imo.
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post #669 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Again, I think the bad performance of the CHT subs was from using the Behringer I-Nuke 3000 in stereo mode. Craig had an Inuke tested, and it managed to deliver 230 watts into 40 Hz (RMS).

Not to question your "had an iNuke tested" results, but do you have the name of the tester, the methods used and the full results of this test?

Did this "test" include burst power, since the 118.1dB number was a peak reading and not a sine wave steady state test?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Another test had it delivering 312 watts RMS at 1000 Hz.

This 312 watts at 1000 Hz meshes well with this type of amp delivering 230 watts at 40 Hz.

For the sake of argument, though, let us stipulate that the I-Nuke can deliver 312 watts all the way down to 20 Hz.

Chas tested a Berry EP2500 using the long term sine wave method. The manufacturer's specs claim 450W/CH into 8 ohms, 20-20kHz. Chas' test result was 450W into 8 ohms at 20 Hz and at 1000 Hz.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post10753603

So, for the sake of your argument, this new Berry puts out only 1/2 its manufacturer's spec... even with a burst test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

A pair of CHT subwoofers in the sealed enclosures can deliver, at 4 meters outdoors, 103.6 dB at 30 Hz (with 624 watts). While 30 Hz is not the "lowest tone available", and all sealed subwoofers will have less output at 20 Hz than 30 Hz, 30 Hz was selected for this analysis. This means one is "erring on the side of the match working against the analysis, not with it".

Let us assume that, at 30 Hz, we achieved a full 9 dB in boundary gain at Archaea's theater. Based on what people experienced, 9 dB of boundary gain is being generous, but let's use it.

This means the subwoofers would be delivering 112.6 dB at 30 Hz at clipping. (624 watts).

The subwoofers were delivering appx. 6 dB higher levels of SPL, which meansn the I-Nukes were attempting to deliver a total of appx. 2400 watts, or 1200 watts per channel.

The subs were clocked at the mic as delivering a peak of 118.1dB, which means your entire imagined 'scenario' of GP vs in-room @ 30 Hz plus an invented boundary gain number minus the Inverse Square Law subtraction for distance is not relevant to what actually happened.

Do you have the frequency response at the mic position? What happens to your fuzzy math if there was a huge peak in response where the mic was placed to record the peak numbers? As others have brought up, what was the content of the source played when the peak reading was recorded?

I agree with ironhead. Barring the missing data, your explanation holds no water. being perfectly honest, it doesn't make much sense in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

As the I-Nukes also had the built in limiter turned off, what people were experiencing was HEAVY clipping in an inexpensive amplifier.

So, it would have been a significantly better outcome if what people experienced was soft clipping or amp shut down from an inexpensive amplifier that CHT sells with the subs used at the G2G?

Let me suggest another scenario:

Here is the published frequency response of the CHT subs and Seaton's SubMersive overlaid with the average FR from the seats at the G2G:



Using Seaton's SM response vs the average at the seats, we actually see a slightly less than average room gain profile, which is, room gain starts at 30 Hz and adds approximately +9dB/octave from there down.

That translates to around +7dB @ 20 Hz and around +15dB @ 10 Hz. The SM is showing room gain beginning at 30 Hz (where there happened to be a dip in the average response) and +4dB at 20 Hz and +12dB @ 10 Hz. Audyssey may have been the culprit and there is no room gain, but that doesn't wash with the SMs performance at the meet. [Of course, these numbers are extrapolated by an arbitrary placement of the naked vs in-room responses, but based on lots of comparative data posted by many others over the years and close enough for a comparison of the 2 subs, which I matched at 50 Hz, with the same amount of peak at 65 Hz. As well, the respective average responses reflect the same influences from the room on both subs]

The CHT subs are showing room gain beginning above 40 Hz and exceeding the room gain profile seen in the SM.

The obvious conclusion is that there was more boost added to the CHT subs through use of the iNukes on board EQ and by Audyssey.

Assuming the subs placement was essentially the same in both cases, it would appear that the iNuke/Audyssey boost scenario was too much for the amp used.

Sorry, but the results would not have been significantly different if either the dayton were used instead or the iNuke had been bridged.

Whether there was 300W per cab available or 500W per cabinet. That's only a 2dB difference. Even if the iNuke were in bridged mode seeing 4 ohms, there would only be a 7dB difference at full rated power, which you seem to be assuring everyone is not gonna happen anyway, based on your posted 'test' results.

As has been stated repeatedly for over a year, the sub rolls off too early to be left to Audyssey (or any other EQ boost method that will bring it flat in-room at 20 Hz) to be sufficiently powered by a 500W amplifier when play ULF-heavy soundtracks in an average space at reference levels.

NOTE: I'm responding to this post because it's been stated by CHT, basically and paraphrasing, that AVS posters (including myself) don't understand the physics involved.

That's bull snot and should be retracted. Everything most anyone knows about subwoofers has much of its origins at AVS through posters who are some of the best low freqs minds anywhere.

It was the inordinate amount of boost required to get the CHT subs flat that overwhelmed the amplifier and which would have overwhelmed the Dayton, which is sold as a package with the CHT subs used in this G2G.

Save the convoluted math and start offering the subs with a real amplifier that's designed to get the job done.

Bosso
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post #670 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Again, I think the bad performance of the CHT subs was from using the Behringer I-Nuke 3000 in stereo mode. Craig had an Inuke tested, and it managed to deliver 230 watts into 40 Hz (RMS).

Another test had it delivering 312 watts RMS at 1000 Hz.

This 312 watts at 1000 Hz meshes well with this type of amp delivering 230 watts at 40 Hz.

For the sake of argument, though, let us stipulate that the I-Nuke can deliver 312 watts all the way down to 20 Hz.

The case was made that the CHT subwoofers, as a pair, delivered 118.1 dB at 17 feet. This is a little over 5 meters from the LP.

A pair of CHT subwoofers in the sealed enclosures can deliver, at 4 meters outdoors, 103.6 dB at 30 Hz (with 624 watts). While 30 Hz is not the "lowest tone available", and all sealed subwoofers will have less output at 20 Hz than 30 Hz, 30 Hz was selected for this analysis. This means one is "erring on the side of the match working against the analysis, not with it".

Let us assume that, at 30 Hz, we achieved a full 9 dB in boundary gain at Archaea's theater. Based on what people experienced, 9 dB of boundary gain is being generous, but let's use it.

This means the subwoofers would be delivering 112.6 dB at 30 Hz at clipping. (624 watts).

The subwoofers were delivering appx. 6 dB higher levels of SPL, which meansn the I-Nukes were attempting to deliver a total of appx. 2400 watts, or 1200 watts per channel.

As the I-Nukes also had the built in limiter turned off, what people were experiencing was HEAVY clipping in an inexpensive amplifier.

I paraphrased for you, "Again, for the sake of argument, let us assume that, what people were experiencing was heavy clipping in an inexpensive amplifier."

The level settings, setup, songs, movie bits... are all documented, if someone wants to recreate it, have fun. If you have a GTG and compare the same subs, go ahead.

I have had about enough of this. The science behind it is this, Tess brought his subwoofers to a GTG. He picked the amp and how he wanted to run the setup. Others told him this was probably not optimal. He went with it after testing it. Nobody had any agenda but to have a good time and listen to some stuff. This is a problem with selling passive subwoofers. Questions posed about what would happen if x sub was run this way on this amp is pointless, because x sub comes with a built in amp. The only other passive sub at the meet shut down twice during playback.

Archaea did not choose how to run these subwoofers. He simply hosted a fun event with the intentions of having fun. This has become the opposite of fun. He wants no part of it.

This whole GTG has been poo pood on, and it wasn't by Klipsch.
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post #671 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 06:07 PM
 
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It seems clear after all this that when products don't live up to the hype some companies have issues when faced with results that they are not happy with. I, for one, am more interested with the results of pro reviews and/or independent 3rd party testing than what happens at a GTG, but this has surely opened my eyes. The people behind the products are as important to me as the products themselves, I insist on quality from both before I make my purchase.
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post #672 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Good post Luke,

One minor correction in regards to the other passive inuke powered setup.

Cap pros shut off the inuke amp on at least three ocassions
HTTYD flame scene
Hulk scene at face punching section during cop car smash clip
And black hawk down Irene scene.

At least those three scenes I and a couple others I talked with heard the inuke amp completely tap out and reboot during the cap pro demo.

FPB, to a similar point-
I've noticed lately despite hsus similar score at this meet their hsu vtf15h thread is incredibly active and it appears there are many new purchasers of hsu products. Dr hsu posts on avs with some regularity and I never heard him make a peep about this meet. For what its worth there are two dramatically different business owner responses at play here.

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post #673 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Another interesting thing I've noticed lately is despite hsus similar score at this meet their hsu vtf15h thread is incredibly active and it appears there are many new purchasers of hsu products! Dr hsu posts on avs with some regularity and I never heard him make a peep about this meet. For what its worth there are two dramatically different business owner responses at play here.

+1.

Great observation, Archaea.
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post #674 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 08:20 PM
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Dr Hsu's subs didnt exhibit anything out of the ordinary either though. Did they? I agree its time to move on but on the other hand I understand where Craig is coming from.

For certain people whos eyes were opened as a result of the gtg. Who do you think you are kidding? You have had your opinions about certain products and certain people way before this. I actually laughed out loud when I read that.

I do agree with you that the people beind the products are as important as the products themselves. That was a big part of my decision when I bought my subs. The customer service I have gotten thus far has been as good as if not better than the customer service I received from the company of my previous subs.
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post #675 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 08:35 PM
 
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He who laughs last.............
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post #676 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 08:56 PM
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OT

Anyone have a Disc (Blu-Ray or DVD) from this 'GTG', I could purchase?

PM me if you do, so I/We don't clutter or derail this thread-->

HH
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post #677 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I tried some of the software to auther my own bluray. The authoring software that is freeware is either too complicated or lacks 7.1 non compressed audio options. The software that actually works well is still incredibly expensive that I can't afford, and I don't agree with pirating. $25K for the software scubasteve used, and around a 1K for the superleo software IIRC. So unless you have a home theater PC the material I used won't do you much good. They are m2ts files which play fine on a PC using freeware VLC, but they won't play on a ps3, (without conversion) and they won't play on any bluray player or roku type device I've ever heard of.

Alternately - the ScubaSteve demo disc and Superleo disks are both awesome and do play in blu-ray players. Our clip lineup doesn't match 1:1, because I made some of my own clips for the meet, my clips are much shorter and to the point so we could get through so many for our demo session - but their bluray disc interfaces are sweet and their clips longer making for better running lenght demos!

For reference here is SuperLeo's disk
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1391873

Here is ScubaSteve's disk
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1283375

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post #678 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 10:05 PM
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I thought about buying that demo bluray but I usually just watch a scene from a 5 star bass movie which is all you need!

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post #679 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 10:13 PM
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Wrath of the titans should be another killer bass movie but man it was horrible! For me to say that means something as I love Greek mythology. It just seems they threw this together and forgot to add the story to piece it together.

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post #680 of 848 Old 04-05-2012, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I thought about buying that demo bluray but I usually just watch a scene from a 5 star bass movie which is all you need!

That scubasteve disc is worth every penny...

I own almost every bluray or DVD on that disc, but still would buy it again. I've played it 10x's more than any other bluray I own. It has pretty much all the five star bass movie scense worth watching in just a quick reference pop in and play.

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post #681 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


That scubasteve disc is worth every penny...

I own almost every bluray or DVD on that disc, but still would buy it again. I've played it 10x's more than any other bluray I own. It has pretty much all the five star bass movie scense worth watching in just a quick reference pop in and play.

The sound quality is just as good as the original blurays? Video too?

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post #682 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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exact 1:1 copy. no compression, no changes. My demo clips are made the same way scuba steve made his. He told me how via pm.

The process is simple to get the files to play on a HTPC --- here they are:

you rip the blu-ray 1:1 either by chapter, or whole disk at a time using a tool called DVD-Fab, then you use a free program called tsmuxor that can rip the bluray file into specific smaller section that start and stop on on the timestamps of your choice. Nothing from the source media is changed at all. Perfect 1:1 copy. Looks and sounds 100% absolutely identical to the original disk because it is the exact same data. You can strip off unnecessary audio tracks like stereo, french, spanish - whatever and leave only the premium 7.1 audio (or whatever the highest quality audio track is) to help the final files be a bit smaller. This process isn't like the old DVD Shrink of old where you'd compress a DVD down to 1gb and get dolby pro-logic and grainy compression artifact laced video. It's a perfect copy.

The trouble is the software to author that uncompressed video and audio back to a 50gB bluray with nice navigational menus is incredibly expensive and the freeware isn't yet up to snuff. Apparently it's very timeconsuming even with the expensive software. With AVHCD - a freeware tool - I found the process to be like an excel chart from hell.

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post #683 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

exact 1:1 copy. no compression, no changes. My demo clips are made the same way scuba steve made his. He told me how via pm.

The process is simple to get the files to play on a HTPC --- here they are:

you rip the blu-ray 1:1 either by chapter, or whole disk at a time using a tool called DVD-Fab, then you use a free program called tsmuxor that can rip the bluray file into specific smaller section that start and stop on on the timestamps of your choice. Nothing from the source media is changed at all. Perfect 1:1 copy. Looks and sounds 100% absolutely identical to the original disk because it is the exact same data. You can strip off unnecessary audio tracks like stereo, french, spanish - whatever and leave only the premium 7.1 audio (or whatever the highest quality audio track is) to help the final files be a bit smaller. This process isn't like the old DVD Shrink of old where you'd compress a DVD down to 1gb and get dolby pro-logic and grainy compression artifact laced video. It's a perfect copy.

The trouble is the software to author that uncompressed video and audio back to a 50gB bluray with nice navigational menus is incredibly expensive and the freeware isn't yet up to snuff. Apparently it's very timeconsuming even with the expensive software. With AVHCD - a freeware tool - I found the process to be like an excel chart from hell.

You might have just talked me into buying one. Wish immortals was on there now but it has plenty! Where do I buy it?

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post #684 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 12:37 AM - Thread Starter
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You might have just talked me into buying one. Wish immortals was on there now but it has plenty! Where do I buy it?

I think I'd just pm scubasteve...

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post #685 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 05:18 AM
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I think I'd just pm scubasteve...

Been meaning to look at getting this disk, but I thought he couldn't "charge" for it as that was a bit grey legal-wise, hence why he used to provide the link for downloading?

 

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post #686 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Been meaning to look at getting this disk, but I thought he couldn't "charge" for it as that was a bit grey legal-wise, hence why he used to provide the link for downloading?

You can purchase one directly from him, or use the torrent links. I believe you are essentially paying for the actually BD and shipping but I can't recall the cost. I've transferred the mkv/m2ts files onto external HD for some people.
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post #687 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 07:25 AM
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I will seed this file if needed. I've got a lot of upload overhead.
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post #688 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 08:23 AM
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Since I grew up in the crayon age, I'll not even attempt what you guys are talking about, instead I'll try to get a disc from scubasteve.

Thanks,,sorry for getting thread off topic.

HH
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post #689 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 09:24 AM
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You can also get the disc from Mpray1983 that'a where i got mine. Just pm him your info.
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post #690 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 09:45 AM
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The sound quality is just as good as the original blurays? Video too?

With your focus on big sound you don't have the Scuba Steve BR Demo. That my friend is A/V hobbyist sacrilege ...

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