Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 24 - AVS Forum
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post #691 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 08:54 AM
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With your focus on big sound you don't have the Scuba Steve BR Demo. That my friend is A/V hobbyist sacrilege ...

I should have one soon!
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post #692 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 09:04 AM
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I should have one soon!

I PMed scubasteve & Mpray1983 asking for a disc (No Reply Yet), are you using the same source?

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post #693 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 09:31 AM
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Best demo disc out there by far! A "MUST HAVE" for any a/v enthusiast.
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post #694 of 848 Old 04-06-2012, 01:10 PM
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Been meaning to look at getting this disk, but I thought he couldn't "charge" for it as that was a bit grey legal-wise, hence why he used to provide the link for downloading?

I don't think the movie studios mind. It's free exposure. Since getting the disc from mpray83 I've bought 5 of the blu-rays sampled because the clips got me interested. If the studios turn a blind eye they'll sell more movies. Just MO
Tim
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post #695 of 848 Old 04-08-2012, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by capecodorthopod View Post


I don't think the movie studios mind. It's free exposure. Since getting the disc from mpray83 I've bought 5 of the blu-rays sampled because the clips got me interested. If the studios turn a blind eye they'll sell more movies. Just MO
Tim

I'm not selling this disc, it's unfortunately caught the eye of not the studios but someone at a mixing house that does care about the licensing. MPray, nor anyone else, has the authorization from me or any of the studios to sell this disc. If you've purchased from Mpray, I'd ask for a refund. Who here has purchased from him and when? He acknowledged publicly to me that he wasn't selling, if he is that speaks to his character.

"The Scuba Tank" thread here
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post #696 of 848 Old 04-08-2012, 06:59 PM
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it's unfortunately caught the eye of not the studios but someone at a mixing house that does care about the licensing..

What crap.
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post #697 of 848 Old 04-10-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by scubasteve2365 View Post

I'm not selling this disc, it's unfortunately caught the eye of not the studios but someone at a mixing house that does care about the licensing. MPray, nor anyone else, has the authorization from me or any of the studios to sell this disc. If you've purchased from Mpray, I'd ask for a refund. Who here has purchased from him and when? He acknowledged publicly to me that he wasn't selling, if he is that speaks to his character.

This really is unfortunate.....

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post #698 of 848 Old 05-09-2012, 11:53 PM
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Did you guys add 3dB to the sub trim due to Audyssey not setting the sub levels right?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #699 of 848 Old 05-10-2012, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Did you guys add 3dB to the sub trim due to Audyssey not setting the sub levels right?

post #3 on the first page describes our standardized setup process.

In Summary

Audyssey on my receiver implementation puts both subs individually at 75dB at the mic position - meaning collectively they are a bit more. The subs were non co-located which implies that together they were about 78dB. We then added 3dB to each side for a bit more boost -- since this was a subwoofer meet afterall. The MFW-15 was the only non standard setup because it used a single sub output to drive both subwoofers. So we boosted that Audyssey calibration to sub out 1 six dB instead of 3dB following Audyssey's run.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
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post #700 of 848 Old 05-31-2012, 10:36 PM
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I'd like the demo bluray disc for personal use. How can I get one?
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post #701 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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sooooooo

For those of you who attended the KC meet with the dual orbit shifters...

Did any of you see any capacity to need more bass than the dual orbit shifters could provide in any home setting?

I have a friend who heard the orbit shifters on a couple occasions, once in a JTR open house, twice heard a single orbit shifter in a sealed room and walked away thinking that one would be insufficient for his room, and so worrying that two might be insufficient also -- -and that he needs more bass. I told him they weren't played anywhere near to their limits if he feels that way and so either there was a setup problem, or they were calibrated tame - because you can just crank those Orbit Shifters up to ludicrous levels. Does anyone who attended the KC meet and heard the orbit shifters at play when they were cracking my kitchen floor grout, knocking out my HD DVD player, and BluRay burner, and blowing a 20amp circuit feel that there was any doubt that the Orbit Shifters would leave something to be desired in the SPL arena? I'm not talking sound quality here. I'm strictly talking SPL levels on a pair of JTR 4000 watt powered Orbit Shifters in the average home theater room.

I told this friend of mine flatly that he is CRAZY.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #702 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 01:33 PM
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Haha, you know what my opinion is on this...

The only way I know of (since I haven't heard all the great DIY options out there) to get the car audio crazy bass experience in your house is to buy a couple of Orbit Shifters. The Orbit Shifters are the only home subs I have heard that seemed to affect my breathing and I'm not exaggerating. I found my limits for the first and only time with the OS's and this is coming from a guy that is not satisfied with dual Submersives in a 3000 cu ft room. That doesn't mean I don't love them, I just want more headroom.

Agreed, something wasn't right if the output wasn't enough.
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post #703 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Haha, you know what my opinion is on this...

The only way I know of (since I haven't heard all the great DIY options out there) to get the car audio crazy bass experience in your house is to buy a couple of Orbit Shifters. The Orbit Shifters are the only home subs I have heard that seemed to affect my breathing and I'm not exaggerating. I found my limits for the first and only time with the OS's and this is coming from a guy that is not satisfied with dual Submersives in a 3000 cu ft room. That doesn't mean I don't love them, I just want more headroom.

Agreed, something wasn't right if the output wasn't enough.

Duals is not enough, quads at a minimum ...

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #704 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 04:02 PM
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Lol - I am a bass nut, what can I say?

I am the friend that Archea is referring to. I have researching subs this year and really would like to figure out which dual sub combo is best for home theater, in the $4,000 or less category. First, a little history of my listening experiences thus far:

My first and only subwoofer that I ever owned from 2007-2007: M&K Professional MPS 5410 (Dual 12" 400 Watt Push/Pull System).

First subwoofers heard this year: TJHUB's dual DIY LMS-5400's (Heard with JTR Triple 12 HT-lp's and Seaton Catalyst 12C's for L/C/R).

Subs heard at JTR's Open House: Dual Cap 1000's and Dual Orbit Shifters (Heard with JTR Triple 12 HT-lps for L/C/R)

Subs heard at warpdrv's GTG: 3 dual opposed DIY LMS-5400's (6 drivers total) in 36" tall cabinets (Heard with Paradigm Signature S8's L/R and Signature C5 center channel).

Subs heard at lbrown105's house on 2 occassions: Single Orbit shifter plus other/smaller subs in system (Heard with JTR Triple 12 HT-lp's L/R and Triple 8 HT-lp for center channel)

Now, to break down my listening experiences of the above subs, I have heard the DIY LMS-5400's sound fantastic, but have also experienced them bottom out due to being pushed too hard in bass heavy scenes. For that reason and also due to not having enough know-how with a DIY project, I have focused on name brand subwoofers by 2 primary companies: JTR and Seaton.

Thus far, I have only had the pleasure of listening to 2 of the JTR subs in different listening environments. I heard dual Cap 1000's and then dual Orbit Shifters at the JTR Open House. There is no doubt that the dual Orbit Shifters produced huge SPL, but my feeling at the time was that the dual Cap 1000's were better integrated into the JTR system. It was my feeling at the time that dual Orbit shifters may have been too much for the room, and that the demo room that we heard the movie clips could have benefited from acoustical treatments. It appeared to me that this crossed the line between having too much bass and was just not comfortable to listen to.

I was fortunate to meet a board member at the JTR open house who has JTR speakers, a single Orbit Shifter, along with a few other subs integrated in his sealed room. He has quite a few acoustical treatments in his room and a fantstic demo space, but it should be noted that he does not have Audyssey room correction. In any event, his Orbit Shifter is doing its thing in his room, but for my tastes, I would want even more bass.

So, thus far, my experience in different settings are that the Orbit Shifters can produce scary SPL levels if pushed to it. At the same time, I have heard 2 Orbit Shifters seem like too much in a non-treated room and 1 shifter seem like not quite enough in a well-treated room without Audyssey.

I have been attempting to arrange a demo with dual Seaton Submersives, which I have yet to hear. I am hoping for the opportunity to hear them in the next month or so, but I am wondering if the Submersives won't be enough to satisfy me when I know that there are bigger brothers being worked on: Terraform XL and the Submersive XL.

If there is such a thing, as carp suggests, as there being less head-room with the Submersives, I have to think that this would be a non-issue with 6,000 watt Goliath monster subwoofers
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post #705 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 04:12 PM
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Hmmm.... saying I'm not satisfied may give people the wrong impression. The bass can get crazy in here and probably more than most sane people would ever want. I just want the bass sound quality that I have but also combine with that the ability to experience output like the OS's on the rare occasion that I want that (usually to show the system off ). Yeah, I think the solution will be to someday buy xl's, terraforms, or sealed Cap 2's.

Long ways off though. It would help if I stopped reading posts on the forum!

BTW, as I post this I'm listening to the first Audioslave album and the bass is ridiculously good. Love these subs.
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post #706 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Be mindful Alex that the room character will dictate your experience as much or more than the subwoofer.

Tell that friend with the single jtr orbit shifter to crank the gain about 6 or 10 dB and listen again. If integrated even half heartidly, one should not be underwhelmed in any mortal room by a single orbit shifter.

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post #707 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 04:19 PM
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We did test out some bass heavy material, including the scenes in the movie "Pulse" and "Cloverfield" last time I was there. I don't think he has the gain turned up on the subwoofers. I will have to see if he is willing to really crank it up if I can impinge upon his hospitality for another time
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post #708 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 10:09 PM
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I bought an Orbit Shifter.

I just couldn't help myself after hearing (and feeling) the OS at the meet. So I recently put in an order with Jeff. I said I bought "an" Orbit Shifter. As in singular. My sealed room is 2700 cubes and I think it will be plenty.

I did the room layout service and the plan calls for one powerful high output sub behind my false wall and another low/moderate output sub relatively near field alongside the second row seating for smoothing purposes. We will see if my Rythmik F12 can be made to function in that role after installing Audessey Pro on my Denon 4311. I may need to get a more powerful second sub to serve as a room mode smoother. I can't wait to find out.

I really can't imagine needing more output if you are corner loading in a small sealed room with a second sub to smooth response and a good bass calibration.
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post #709 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

I bought an Orbit Shifter.

I just couldn't help myself after hearing (and feeling) the OS at the meet. So I recently put in an order with Jeff. I said I bought "an" Orbit Shifter. As in singular. My sealed room is 2700 cubes and I think it will be plenty.

I did the room layout service and the plan calls for one powerful high output sub behind my false wall and another low/moderate output sub relatively near field alongside the second row seating for smoothing purposes. We will see if my Rythmik F12 can be made to function in that role after installing Audessey Pro on my Denon 4311. I may need to get a more powerful second sub to serve as a room mode smoother. I can't wait to find out.

I really can't imagine needing more output if you are corner loading in a small sealed room with a second sub to smooth response and a good bass calibration.

I think it's either gonna be hit or miss with using the F12 in the rear. Most likely I bet it will be pointless and if anything will hold you back in terms of getting the most out of your shifter.

You do have Audyssey HT sub EQ tho in that receiver I believe so at least when doing your testing you will be setting it up the best and most efficient way possible. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with when you do your testing. My vote is you end up selling the F12 because the Shifter will be more than enough in that size room.
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post #710 of 848 Old 06-01-2012, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
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+1 to the Rythmik 12" doing absolutely nothing in tandem with an orbit shifter.

It'll most likely hold you back quite a bit if you try to mesh them together.

I guess it won't hurt to try, but I can't imagine it being beneficial.

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post #711 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 06:03 AM
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That's awesome Grant! I can't wait to hear what it sounds like, if I remember right it has more output than 2 powered caps - that should be nuts in a room that size.
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post #712 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 07:53 AM
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I am anticipating that it will be difficult to get enough clean output from the F12 to use it to smooth the frequency response. Not impossible but difficult. I am told the sub EQ in the Audessey XT32 with Pro is very very good and gives you the ability to adjust the gain quite a bit. I know that the QSC DSP 322 offers even more flexibility but it is a good bit of coin at $3500. I would rather just get a sub that is easier to integrate than go that direction.

Maybe I can make up for some output by placing the F12 near field. The OS will be around 14 feet and the F12 will be around 8 feet.

So if the F12 doesn't show up to the fight (and I still need another sub to use to smooth the room modes) what do you guys suggest as a second sub that has enough output to do the job. Keep in mind the second sub will be in the room next to the second row so it would be great if it could look decent. And the sub really does not need to have the same raw output or go as deep. It just has to serve to take care of room modes and smooth the frequency response at the listening positions.
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post #713 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Hmmm.... saying I'm not satisfied may give people the wrong impression. The bass can get crazy in here and probably more than most sane people would ever want. I just want the bass sound quality that I have but also combine with that the ability to experience output like the OS's on the rare occasion that I want that (usually to show the system off ). Yeah, I think the solution will be to someday buy xl's, terraforms, or sealed Cap 2's.

Long ways off though. It would help if I stopped reading posts on the forum!

BTW, as I post this I'm listening to the first Audioslave album and the bass is ridiculously good. Love these subs.

I think that if you experienced properly setup (OS's) in a treated room you might have a different take. They can play as cleanly as any sub I have owned/heard (including the Sub-HP) but have massive capability 15Hz and above. Terraform XL's will likely move the bar but for the time being, the OS is the alpha commercial sub ... IMO

HToM

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post #714 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

Maybe I can make up for some output by placing the F12 near field. The OS will be around 14 feet and the F12 will be around 8 feet.

So if the F12 doesn't show up to the fight (and I still need another sub to use to smooth the room modes) what do you guys suggest as a second sub that has enough output to do the job. Keep in mind the second sub will be in the room next to the second row so it would be great if it could look decent. And the sub really does not need to have the same raw output or go as deep. It just has to serve to take care of room modes and smooth the frequency response at the listening positions.

What color is the driver of the F12? I could maybe use it for a project but am not really interested in the enclosure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I think that if you experienced properly setup (OS's) in a treated room you might have a different take. They can play as cleanly as any sub I have owned/heard (including the Sub-HP) but have massive capability 15Hz and above. Terraform XL's will likely move the bar but for the time being, the OS is the alpha commercial sub ... IMO

The time we heard it, sometimes you could hear the walls and vents resonate more than the OS.

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post #715 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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In carps defense he was at the blind meet and picked the sub that sounded best to his ears in fairly level playing field. The top four subs all received remarkably similar scores. (A couple percentange points difference between first and fourth when averaged over nine peoples blind score). Despite the overall similarity in scores some people still found pretty clear affinities towards one alignment or the other. For instance carp liked sealed (and huskeromaha loved ported). ;p. They might not have been able to tell what alignment it was as it was auditioned, but their score cards seem to note a preference. As to a treated room - In a better room all the subs would have sounded better until they reached their individual limits. True, orbit shifters would still set that spl max bar quite high! And I'm not taking anything away from the mighty orbit shifter. Just saying individual preferences still make account.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #716 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

I am anticipating that it will be difficult to get enough clean output from the F12 to use it to smooth the frequency response. Not impossible but difficult. I am told the sub EQ in the Audessey XT32 with Pro is very very good and gives you the ability to adjust the gain quite a bit. I know that the QSC DSP 322 offers even more flexibility but it is a good bit of coin at $3500. I would rather just get a sub that is easier to integrate than go that direction.

Maybe I can make up for some output by placing the F12 near field. The OS will be around 14 feet and the F12 will be around 8 feet.

So if the F12 doesn't show up to the fight (and I still need another sub to use to smooth the room modes) what do you guys suggest as a second sub that has enough output to do the job. Keep in mind the second sub will be in the room next to the second row so it would be great if it could look decent. And the sub really does not need to have the same raw output or go as deep. It just has to serve to take care of room modes and smooth the frequency response at the listening positions.

I think you will be fine with the one orbit shifter but if your really hung up on having two subs then....I hate to say it but maybe return the orbit shifter for two caps?? I'm not trying to start a controversy just an idea.
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post #717 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post


What color is the driver of the F12? I could maybe use it for a project but am not really interested in the enclosure.

The time we heard it, sometimes you could hear the walls and vents resonate more than the OS.

I will check to see what color the driver is when I get home. It was already suggested to me that I could switch out the rythmik driver and amp for a higher quality DIY driver and a more powerful amp to achieve greater spl while keeping the look of the piano gloss black cabinet and small size of the enclosure. People in the know expressed that by removing the servo the results could be satisfactory. So I may look into that. But I may also decide I just need a bigger everything and sell the whole thing and stuff a bigger second sub in the back corner.
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post #718 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post


I think you will be fine with the one orbit shifter but if your really hung up on having two subs then....I hate to say it but maybe return the orbit shifter for two caps?? I'm not trying to start a controversy just an idea.

The os has not shipped yet and I did think about dual cap sealed. It would be quite a bit more money than one os though. It would be more output below 20hz but less over 20hz I would guess and I want to get the over 20hz priority. Then there is always 2 passive ported caps which is excellent bang for the buck but I must admit it is difficult for me to think about giving up the extension even though it really is of secondary importance to me. Anyway I am going to roll with the os and see what frequency response I get with it alone and then attempt to add a second sub as needed.
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post #719 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

I will check to see what color the driver is when I get home. It was already suggested to me that I could switch out the rythmik driver and amp for a higher quality DIY driver and a more powerful amp to achieve greater spl while keeping the look of the piano gloss black cabinet and small size of the enclosure. People in the know expressed that by removing the servo the results could be satisfactory. So I may look into that. But I may also decide I just need a bigger everything and sell the whole thing and stuff a bigger second sub in the back corner.

Okay thanks. Yes, if you are looking for more SPL from that enclosure, you will need a driver with more throw, more wire, and also more amp. I hooked my driver up non-servo fashion into my old enclosure before I destroyed the box. It kind of reminds me of the 15" Dayton Reference driver I heard locally.

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post #720 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

The os has not shipped yet and I did think about dual cap sealed. It would be quite a bit more money than one os though. It would be more output below 20hz but less over 20hz I would guess and I want to get the over 20hz priority. Then there is always 2 passive ported caps which is excellent bang for the buck but I must admit it is difficult for me to think about giving up the extension even though it really is of secondary importance to me. Anyway I am going to roll with the os and see what frequency response I get with it alone and then attempt to add a second sub as needed.

I vote for the dual S2 setup. Bangin.
The OS are so incredible. Brainsuckingout potential.
That is what I'm trying to copy (dual S2). So far unsuccessfully due to supply.

Archaea I think is just jealous we all got to listen blind and fumble around in the darkness of trying to pick and justify what we heard. I still think Archaea is a closet sealed fan. I think he has an order of LMS drivers sitting in his garage under that race car project of his.

Whens the next GTG?
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