Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post


I vote for the dual S2 setup. Bangin.
The OS are so incredible. Brainsuckingout potential.
That is what I'm trying to copy (dual S2). So far unsuccessfully due to supply.

Archaea I think is just jealous we all got to listen blind and fumble around in the darkness of trying to pick and justify what we heard. I still think Archaea is a closet sealed fan. I think he has an order of LMS drivers sitting in his garage under that race car project of his.

Whens the next GTG?

Well yeah dual s2 would be amazing and with incredible extension. I am afraid it breaks the bank though. If going DIY why not do 4 single cap s and have more placement options. You can always co locate if you want.
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post #722 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

The os has not shipped yet and I did think about dual cap sealed. It would be quite a bit more money than one os though. It would be more output below 20hz but less over 20hz I would guess and I want to get the over 20hz priority. Then there is always 2 passive ported caps which is excellent bang for the buck but I must admit it is difficult for me to think about giving up the extension even though it really is of secondary importance to me. Anyway I am going to roll with the os and see what frequency response I get with it alone and then attempt to add a second sub as needed.


hmmph -- as long as you are still not cemented into a decision ---

You should come over and hear the Captivator Pro passive pair with the Crown XLS-5000 amp before you rule them out.

Crown's 5000 watts vs. the Behringer's 3000 watts you heard at the meet.

I'm free tomorrow afternoon or evening --- then we could head over to Luke's to hear the Crystal Audio stuff.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
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post #723 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

hmmph -- as long as you are still not cemented into a decision ---

You should come over and hear the Captivator Pro passive pair with the Crown XLS-5000 amp before you rule them out.

Crown's 5000 watts vs. the Behringer's 3000 watts you heard at the meet.

I'm free tomorrow afternoon or evening --- then we could head over to Luke's to hear the Crystal Audio stuff.

Anytime after 6:30pm works for me if you guys want to come over.

Grant, I say to try out the f12 since you already have it, then wait a while and get a second OS LFU. Below that horns tuning I believe it acts like a sealed sub. Adding a second same sub will add more headroom below 20hz as well as smooth response with easier integration.
Per Jeff.

Output below 20hz:
1) Captivator S
2) Orbit Shifter LF
3) Captivator

Put it standing up or on its side like on the second or third picture here against your side wall in the back corner.

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.co...right)-5670205

Let's face if you keep reading here you will want to get something every once in a while. If it looks out of place maybe you can spice it up with one of Jonathon's Justin Beiber posters.
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post #724 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Ha!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
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post #725 of 848 Old 06-02-2012, 09:02 PM
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You know you want to hear that Bieber clip of yours on the Orbit Shifter! I think I do too. Did I just say that? Not that there is anything wrong with that. (Hopefully somebody got the Seinfeld reference)

We just got home from a big family wedding so let me ask my wife tomorrow for clearance to be gone for awhile. I might only have time to go to one place though and I need to bring those fabric samples over to Luke's. I want to have both of you take a look at my basement before I do anything in case you have some more ideas. I will be on vacation this week so any day will work.

I will get back with you guys but I am pretty sure we can do something.
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post #726 of 848 Old 06-04-2012, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Whens the next GTG?

I just finished a system that sounds better than anything I've heard yet. Are you getting more drivers in soon? We could do a subwoofer tour in Omaha in the next month or so with your subs and mine.
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post #727 of 848 Old 06-04-2012, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I just finished a system that sounds better than anything I've heard yet. Are you getting more drivers in soon? We could do a subwoofer tour in Omaha in the next month or so with your subs and mine.

this post is worthless without pics



Let's see the infinite baffle setup!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #728 of 848 Old 06-04-2012, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

this post is worthless without pics



Let's see the infinite baffle setup!

I have to take some more pictures tonight. Here are the drivers and one opening with its cast iron grate. I should have a thread up by tomorrow.





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post #729 of 848 Old 06-04-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I have to take some more pictures tonight. Here are the drivers and one opening with its cast iron grate. I should have a thread up by tomorrow.






this post is worthless without pics that doesn't work.
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post #730 of 848 Old 06-04-2012, 02:53 PM
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What good are these subs if your wife or daughters are always sleeping and you can't turn it up? I can watch movies at -30 at home....

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post #731 of 848 Old 06-04-2012, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

We did test out some bass heavy material, including the scenes in the movie "Pulse" and "Cloverfield" last time I was there. I don't think he has the gain turned up on the subwoofers. I will have to see if he is willing to really crank it up if I can impinge upon his hospitality for another time

Alex, you can definetely come over again, it is a lot of fun demoing this stuff. One of the things I am working on is upgrading my pre pro. It would be awesome if we could get someone to comeover with a proper mic and measure for us because I do have REW on my computer, and a Behringer 1124PEQ, but no mic, soundcard or experience running it. By the way the other two subs are the epik empire right next to the couch and the two velodyne sc 12's on side and rear of the room for fill. I fill like I have this big pile of power and need to sculpt it better (set up) into something better!

By the way I couldn't get those files to work.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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post #732 of 848 Old 06-04-2012, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kcnitro07 View Post

What good are these subs if your wife or daughters are always sleeping and you can't turn it up? I can watch movies at -30 at home....

jabs from everywhere...

Last time KCNitro came over for a move my daughters were sleeping and wife wouldn't let me turn it up...

such is the price of being a family man...

That and getting chewed out for cracked grout in the kitchen for about a week following one of the coolest displays of raw power I've ever witnessed..

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #733 of 848 Old 06-04-2012, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I have to take some more pictures tonight. Here are the drivers and one opening with its cast iron grate. I should have a thread up by tomorrow.







WOW

I'm looking forward to your writeup because if you are using infinite baffle you must have done something crazy to have it coming through a floor vent. I was expecting to see the cones on all eight of those babies showing out of a wall or something!

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post #734 of 848 Old 06-06-2012, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post



WOW


I'm looking forward to your writeup because if you are using infinite baffle you must have done something crazy to have it coming through a floor vent. I was expecting to see the cones on all eight of those babies showing out of a wall or something!

There is a thread started in the DIY Forum.
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post #735 of 848 Old 11-07-2012, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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post #736 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is some recent conversation that came up in the ULF thread regarding the 2012 meet details. I feel the conversation would be better kept in this thread, and since it continues, I've multiquoted it back to this thread and hope the dialogue can be held here instead out of band in the ULF thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Forgive me for the long post - but I just copied in a couple old responses. I have a bit of new text in bold font to address Reef's and my aside.
Honestly,

I think the final results were too close to call no matter how you slice it. The top shelf subs were all within a couple percentage points of each other. Here was my commentary on the scoring.

As to identifying ported vs. sealed. Here is the outcome of the blind votes:
All considered this is terrible accuracy when you consider we had a bunch of avsforum subwoofer aficionados as the blind voters, All went in thinking they could clearly tell the difference between ported and sealed. My favorite example was HuskerOmaha who exuberantly preferred ported during the blind listening music tests --- this after berating ported for months and months before the meet. wink.gif Greg and I are friends, and I’ll give him a bit of crap on that as long as we remain such.

FWIW - I do think the subs have a different sound or characteristic to them. I'm not yet sure how much of that is EQ/frequency response and available headroom vs. ported or sealed alignment. But I expect it's boils out to mostly the former differences and a lot less the alignment (sealed vs. ported) differences on subs --- given generally equivalent quality and capability.


I think that the I Nuke was not setup correctly in that shootout and makes any data misleading from the posted results. There is something about the I Nuke 15 Hz tuned. The I Nuke lowest point to boost a frequency is at 20 Hz. The I Nuke 3000 DSP should have been setup in bridge mode, sealed sub should have had a bass boost, Neutrik speaker connector may not have been properly connected, and only the A input on the I Nuke should have been used in that shootout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I think that the I Nuke was not setup correctly in that shootout and makes any data misleading from the posted results. There is something about the I Nuke 15 Hz tuned. The I Nuke lowest point to boost a frequency is at 20 Hz.

What do you mean?

All the settings we used at that meet were listed in the first few posts, including the exact iNuke DSP settings - with screenprints. I don't know what you refer to?

To your point, during Friday night's setup period we saved the documented DSP settings on the iNuke DSP 3000 amp. We then recalled the saved settings on Saturday for the meet and Sunday for the retest. There is no secret to what we did. It's all publically published, and the settings were blessed by the sub owner. The owner of the 18.1 pair was very enthusiastic about the way the subs sounded in my room on Friday night. He stated they sounded the best he had ever heard them sound coupled to the iNuke DSP 3000, as witnessed by several other avsforum members who were present - HuskerOmaha, kwarney, and deserdome. PM them if you don't want to take my exclusive word for it. Take that for what you will.

Take Note:The iNuke was not out of gas on the musical clips at all at the volumes auditioned as verified during the Sunday afternoon's retest time. The clip lights never engaged for any of the musical demo pieces during the retest at the standardized volumes, and we played and replayed the deepest notes, and the loudest sections. There were no clip lights on the slow sine wave, and no clip lights on the Bass I love you track. The biggest controversy with the CHT sub's performance from the people who felt the CHT were treated unfairly was that people said they were underpowered for dynamic sections on the iNuke DSP 3000 amp. Two conflicts to that. 1) the owner chose to use the iNuke DSP 3000, despite my verbal caution on Friday night that the bad sounds we heard during Friday night's setup demos for the movie section and sine wave bottom note would be unacceptable in the next day's meet when compared to the more expensive subs. To that verbal caution I issued the owner, as witnessed by the aforementioned AVSforum attendees - the 18.1 owner said that his subs sounded the best he'd ever heard the subs sound, and if he wanted to proceed as it was, saying how good they sounded would over-ride the possibility or expectation of a few bad noises. He also mentioned he was afraid his Dayton amp would power off, when I questioned if we should consider using that amp. Also noteworthy, on Sunday's retest to see where the amp was clipping - - - the music section never clipped the amp - so whatever recognition the 18.1 pair received for their performance in the music section was merited on their own ability, and not due to the amp. (since no clipping was observed).
For the movies one could argue the iNuke amp hurt their perofrmance, but given the owner's blessing, and fears of the Dayton amp turning off, it could also be argued the iNuke didn't hurt their scores. I personally STRONGLY believe the CHT would have performed worse in the blind results if powered by the Dayton. This was certainly made my belief after witnessing the two amps back to back on Sunday's retest timeframe and hearing how much weaker the Dayton amp preformed the standardized demo tracks - both music and movies. There was no umpf using the Dayton amp in my room. none. The CHT owner at the time agreed fully with me, and thought the 18.1 subs again sounded great on Sunday, verbally questioning why the subs sounded poor during the blind demo on Saturday, since the subs sounded great (in his opinion) on Friday night and sounded great (in his opinion) on Sunday with the iNuke, since the same DSP settings were used on all three occassions? Answer --- Because on Friday Night and Sunday the 18.1 wasn't compared to subs that cost several times and much are were MUCH more capable. This wasn't a behind the curtain type setup. There were three of us involved in setup, and several others who observed the process. The CHT 18.1 owner was one of the setup guys, the HSU owner was on of the setup guys, and I was one of the setup guys. We all watched and verified each setup step, which is why we didn't make any known mistakes over the course of the setup. We had three pairs of eyes verifying everything and a written checklist to follow on each occassion. Vendors, Mark Seaton and Jeff Permanian were also present for the setup, but just observed. They did not offer advice, even when we initially asked for their opinion on a couple matters relating to sub positioning and crossover levels. They took the wise position of not being involved in anything at all - lest someone cry foul.

Any of the test results can be repeated by anyone with CHT subs and a DSP 3000 amp interested in doing so since we documented all settings to the nth degree, and were able to repeat the issue on three occassions - Friday night, Saturday during the blind meet, and Sunday in the retest timeframe. I offered the retest results verified through on Sunday thorugh PM to Craig Chase before they were published so he could try to recreate the problem with his own iNuke DSP 3000 amp he owned at the time on a pair of 18.1 subs. Seems like something he'd be interested in if he truly felt his subs were misjudged!?!?! I offered to e-mail them to him, snail mail them to him, or whatever, but somehow get him the results. Ominimic captures, screenprints, video, etc. He wasn't interested. My theory is the only reason he wouldn't be interested, is because he already knew this was to be expected or could recreate the issue from what we'd already published without the additional retest data, which showed the same thing as the meet results. There is a heck of a lot more I'd like to say here about the frustrations I encountered afterward in dealing with CHT through PM, my deleted posts on his public forum, with him publically saying I wasn't responding (we have screen captures of some of those in my 2012 thread) etc. and just generally having my integrity and honest intentions attacked. But I'll just let this post stand at the above without the other gory details. The information above addresses your specific comment. The above details are honest specifics as they relate to the meet setup. Those who know me wouldn't question my integrity otherwise. If you'd like to further question the results of our 2012 thread, please do so in that thread, as that would be a really off topic here. I'll be happy to respond there, though I think we've pretty much addressed everything commonly questions in spades throughout the course of that thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

What?

All the settings we used were listed in the first few posts, including the exact iNuke DSP settings - with screenprints. I don't know what you refer to.

I just did a quick look over the last several pages in this thread a did not find anything on the settings. If it was in the original shootout please provide a link. Were the subs using the I Nuke setup as I have stated? I don't mind being corrected if I am in error. I have several I Nuke 3000 DSP unit and have test the different setting with my subwoofer and the result will differ if not setup correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Post #3 for the iNuke DSP settings and AVR settings, and graphs showing resulting FR.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012#post_21492270

and Post #2
in the section entitled "Sub X didn't preform as well as I expected - did you do any retesting to see what happened?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Thanks Archaea for the link. I read the info on setup and the amp was not setup correctly for max performance. I am not suprise the JTR clipped the amp. The most power delivered to the subs would have been a little over 400 watts. People may not have been using that amp for subs much at the time and my own personal experience with the amp supports that it is easy setup incorrectly. I know I did and there was a learning curve on using that particular proamp for sub duty. All the conclusions drawn on the sealed subs for that shootout are not valid. But, the participants observations were true.biggrin.gif I did not see any info on how the neutrik speakon was setup. My guess is that it would have been wrong also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

What on earth are you talking about? You post exactly how you set it up and show everyone how "you" do it right.
The I Nuke amp

Reference was made using data from that particular GTG. When designing an experiment, if the initial design is wrong then the data supporting any conclusion is flawed. The I Nuke amp is a pro-amp. In stereo and dual mono at best the amp can deliver 440 watts according to Berhinger. Some independent test points to the delivered wattage being lower. In bridge mode the amp can deliver 1520/3000 watts according to Berhinger into an 8/4 ohm load. For a GTG the maximum deliverable wattage should be used to level the playing field. The Neutrik speakon connector can be wired to deliver the wattage for stereo, dual mono and bridge mode. There are 4 slots in the connector for wires, +1, +2, -1, and -2. Depending on how the wires are connected will effect how the amp operates. Unless someone can show data where all of this was taken into account, the amps were not setup correctly for normal performance..If 2 sealed 8 ohm subs were used the sub should have been connected in a parallel wiring configurations and the amp set to a 4 ohm load. Wiring would be different if two 4 ohm subs were used on the same amp.

Seeing that people are asking what am I talking about further my assumption that the people at the GTG were not familiar with that particular amp. I have stated that when I first started using the amps in my system that I made some of the same mistakes. My assumption in no way questions the knowledge, intent or credibility of anyone involved at the GTG.

My 8 ohm subs are wired in parallel , amp is set to bridge mode/4 ohm and the Nuetrik speakon is wired positive to +1 and negative to +2. Only input A and channel A on the amp are used. I have discussed this setup with Berhinger and have did output reading in my HT system. This is the best way to setup my 8 ohm subs to the amp. My apology for side tracking the thread from ULF scores.

The PEQ should have also be done after autocalibration which requires raising the low end of sealed subs by 3-6 db and proper adjustment of the Q or bandwidth to evenly elevate the LF's. The Berhinger I Nuke amps are outstanding amps for subwoofer use due to their DSP but, need more detail attention for proper setup compared to some other amps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I didn't, and still don't know what you are talking about in regards to your first post 15Hz comment about the iNuke. N8DOGG was not at the meet.

But, I know exactly what you are talking about in regards to the newer comment about bridged vs dual mono and which pins to modify in the neutirk connector if using bridged. And I reject your conclusion for the reasons I already noted. As mentioned in the meet thread, and showed in the screen prints on post three we ran the subs dual mono off the amp. I suspect, if you read the thread, or saw Craig's rebuttals you know this. Each sub on one channel. Pin +1 and Pin -1. We discussed trying the subs out bridged to a combined four ohm load on Friday night, but again, the owner was very happy with the sound as it was and said he didn't want to mess with it.

Most importantly:
No clip lights on the music section means the amp was not over whelmed, during the music audition. Sunday's retest a/b session with the lesser performing "optimal" Dayton was telling. The CHT "recommended" config with the Dayton amp was weak in my room on the demo clips used in the meet and it was apparent to me thereafter why the 18.1 owner preferred the iNuke amp setup immediately on Friday night without even needing to audition the standard CHT recommended/bundled Dayton amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

What exactly was the expectation by CHT?

To win the meet?

A look at the drivers in play would reveal the flaw in that hope.

JTR Captivator and Orbit Shifter driver


CHT 18.1 driver


The CHT performed along with their pricing. They did fine, better than the Klipsch, and in line with the HSU, according to nine blind voters. They may have fared a smidge better on the movie scores with an amp that didn't ever clip but they were not gonna catch the top four based on vast capability/headroom differences. The passive ported Captivator subs rebooted the same iNuke amp three times and clipped the same amp constantly on the more difficult tracks during their audition. They still scored within 3% of first place as I mentioned on the previous page's post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

It is no point in discussing the results since the subs were not setup properly, no matter who OK's it. When I noticed a few things done incorrectly it questions the attention to detail on other facets of the setup. My comment are only informational on the proper setup of the subwoofers. This far out from the GTG the setup problem can't be reversed or rationalized to fix the improper setup. Just the fact that dual mono was used is a major mistake. This is just what happen and is past history, A lesson can be learned for future use with this amp. No one likes being wrong but, we share our knowledge base on this forum so that we can become better educated on audio science. The PEQ graphs for the amp also do not look correct.

I am not trying to change any opinion of the results in that GTG. I have done research in other areas and research protocol design and if the design or execution of the design is flaw, results are flawed. There is no way around that particular point

Archeaa you are a true gentleman to share the info on that GTG. Our primary purpose is to share knowledge on this forum. The setup was a problem with people not being familiar with this particular amp. If one took a 200 watts amp and only used 60 watts in a high spl contest against another 200 watts amp working properly, the results would be flawed concerning the amp max output and handling demanding loads. The info I shared is for anyone using the Berhinger I Nuke amps with any brand of passive sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I hate to bring this up again and it is not about CHT, any speakers or subs, it is just that so many bring up CHT. Comparing a $400 sub vs a $1500 sub is obvious, especially sealed vs ported. You know where I stand as I have mentioned this all the time. You guys always seem to compare $6000 worth of subs against $1000-$3000 worth of subs and say how the $6000 was better or in another league. I would say the same thing! The question is what happens when you put $6000 worth of the cheaper subs up against the $6000 more expensive subs. That is how I compare things and why I say what I do. I mean if we had a GTG at my house we could compare one CapS2 vs an OS vs my IB and see what wins. I had dual Cap1000's that cost as much as 4 18.2's so we could compare that as well(actually we can't, I don't own them anymore) but I bet people would not pick the usual suspects. I don't expect dual CS 18.1's to equal a single Cap, not even close near 17-25hz. It is what it is. I have been moving around my SEOS and 888LP and I just wanted to say the I think Jeff makes his speakers with concrete or bricks, damn they are heavy for little guys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

mktheater - the original intention was to have four 18.1 subs for the meet, a pair didn't show up.

Price is definately part of the equation. When you look at the results, they fall out as one would expect according to price. I don't see how anybody expected the pair of CHT 18.1 to beat the 2-3x more expensive subs.

derrickdj1 is correct in that at the time the iNuke DSP3000 was not well vetted, and we didn't know the 8ohm stereo (or dual mono in this case) capability was low in comparison to the four ohm bridged. Again this detail does not affect the music portion of the demo. As I've said before, the sub driver was being overdriven on the lowest notes during the music and was making bad noises on the bass sine sweep on the lowest notes and the on the bass I love you track -- without clip lights. That's not a amp problem, thats an excursion problem. Chase likes to say 200-400 watts from the iNuke amp at 8ohm per channel can't bottom out his woofer because it can handle 1000-1500 watts. At what frequency are we comparing the ability to bottom? The woofer might handle 1000 watts at 100hz?, but can it handle 1000 watts at 15hz in the sealed 18.1 enclosure? It seems that answer is no. Then how many watts can it handle at 15hz? Well clearly less than the iNuke amp was capable of delivering before the amp encountered clipping. I asked that question in his forum in direct response to one of his posts asking me how I could explain that the iNuke's paltry output could bottom out his sub, and he deleted my post. One of three legitimate posts on this topic he deleted of mine before I quit going to his forum.

derrickdj1 is not correct in thinking he can question all matters related to our meet because of one issue he takes with one component of the meet. We documented everything. Please list in the 2012 thread other elements you take issue with or invalidate the test. We can talk through them.


At this point I'm going to multiquote all of the 2012 subwoofer related discussion and move it over to the 2012 thread. We can continue discussion there if you'd like.

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post #737 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 08:34 AM
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Thanks for moving this over. Should make it easier to follow.
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post #738 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 10:06 AM
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I had a situation recently with my office system where my speakers were clipping and sounded just like the CHT sub at the GTG. I was using a pro DAC with a small amp. Even at low volumes I was getting clipping. The issue was that the amp was getting too high of a signal and clipping the input stage. I reduced the output voltage of the DAC and all was fine.

Here is what I said at the GTG about the CHT sub, "At the levels we were listening at (-10dB) it was distorting the whole time."

The Behringer's DSP does A/D and D/A conversion before the amp input stage. Basically it is a DAC and an amp in one. I am almost certain the boost on the lows caused clipping on the input stage because the boost wasn't compensated for digitally in Behringer's DSP. In the Filter/Crossover tab you need to reduce the gain by the amount of the increased gain in the PEQ tab. This explains why the sub sounded bad even though the amp didn't clip on the output and why I thought it sounded bad the whole time.



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post #739 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 10:17 AM
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DD,
We need to have a long PM about jriver and computers. I want to know what is needed to run 7.1, how, how much, etc.. pretty please?

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post #740 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 10:46 AM
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There were major error n setup, PEQ, execution and data analysis that make it not appropriate to continue t discussion on this topic here. I think Archeae suggestion to move it back to the original thread is correct.

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post #741 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 11:14 AM
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Elaborating on my comments concerning the PEQ used on the Berhinger amp, my quick glance at the graphs reveal that the JTR and Chase sub had 4-5 frequencies adjusted which is not correct. This many frequencies should never be adjusted in such a narrow frequency band, ie 20 -60 Hz. Adjustment of the Q or bandwidth would have been the correct way to approach parametric equalization. The only point I am concluding from what I have seen presented in this GTG is that the amp was not setup and used properly. I have not read the whole thread Seeing so many errors at this point prevents me from commenting on the concluding data because to assume that it does not effect the final conclusion would be to further compound the problems with the study.

My thought are that most people were not familiar with using the DSP and using it in conjunction with autocalibration programs. This was not a well controlled study. I know all the people involved tried to do a good GTG and this is not a reflection on their efforts. This is a science forum and interpreting the setup and results, the scientific method should be our goal As what people expected to come out of the GTG, I can't answer. I was not an active member of this forum at the time and had no experience with any of the subs used in the meet.

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post #742 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

DD,
We need to have a long PM about jriver and computers. I want to know what is needed to run 7.1, how, how much, etc.. pretty please?

Lol and please include me on this PM convo. biggrin.gif

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post #743 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Elaborating on my comments concerning the PEQ used on the Berhinger amp, my quick glance at the graphs reveal that the JTR and Chase sub had 4-5 frequencies adjusted which is not correct. This many frequencies should never be adjusted in such a narrow frequency band, ie 20 -60 Hz. Adjustment of the Q or bandwidth would have been the correct way to approach parametric equalization.
How many filters do you think commercial sub manufacturer's use in their DSP? The REW recommended filters have been pretty well vetted by now as being quite accurate in the lower bass area. Also, 20-60 Hz is one and half octaves. Multiple narrow frequencies combine in the appropriate manner to smooth the response better than a wider Q single filter could do. Notice that the final result actually just looks like two filters.

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post #744 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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desertdome,
Please explain further. I don't follow post 738. I trust you and your knowledge more than most in the realm of EQ, but I don't think I understand what you are trying to convey. The AVR subwoofer trims are always negative on my TX-NR1007, and the iNuke DSP is mated to the amp - all one unit (not a mixmash of components). It seems unlikely to me that 4dB of boost at 20hzon the internal DSP is going to be tripping up the input stage of the amplifier because it is too much boost. You can see the results of the iNuke DSP on the omnimic capture, and you can see many different captures of the 18.1 with and without the iNuke powering it in my room in the Sunday's retest data, which was linked in post 2 of this thread.




derrickdj1,
There were 3 filters applied to the CHT subs as described and screenprinted in post three. The same 3 filters were applied to channel A and channel B - resulting in the captured frequency response. The three highlighted filters are all that apply. Not "four or five" If you unhighlight something in the iNuke DSP it no longer is applicable.
If 3 filters messes up sound than 6 filters out to destroy sound. Yet the caps had six filters applied, and they were within 3% of first place on overall scoring.

DD is correct here. I have played with DSP filters on my iNuke ad naseum and measured such over and over with the ominimic. You aren't going to negatively effect sound by applying similar filters in persuit of flat FR.

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post #745 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 04:06 PM
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The input sensitivity on Behringer iNuke amps is .75v. This means that the iNuke can deliver maximum power when it receives a .75v signal. Josh Ricci has said the sub outputs on the Onkyo's he has measured have put out 10V. I believe most pro amps can accept up to 24 dBu on the inputs which equates to 12.28 volts. The gain knobs act as a voltage divider to reduce the voltage to the amp's input stage. With the iNuke being an A/D converter it might not accept as much voltage as a a typical amp.

Where you had the trim set on the subwoofer output of the Onkyo is irrelevant since Audyssey boosted bass and the volume control can push the digital signal on the Onkyo sub out to its maximum. At some point, increasing the sub trim can actually reduces all other channels since you can't go above 0dB digitally. Since we were playing fairly loud and since the bass was probably boosted by Audyssey, the actual digital signal going into the iNuke was probably fairly high. It could have actually been clipping the iNuke's A/D input before reaching the input stage of the amplifier but I doubt this was happening.

The A/D stage of the iNuke converts the signal back to digital at 0 dBfs to maintain a high signal to noise ratio. If you push this signal higher than 0 dBfs, it will just hard clip the peaks. Some devices, like the miniDSP, may compensate for this automatically. A pro device usually has a hands off policy leaving all decision making to the operator. This means that any increase in the PEQ section needs to be compensated for by reducing gain in the filter/crossover section. The DCX2496 is similar. This is referenced on the Behringer Mods website:
Quote:
How can I avoid digital clipping? Most digital recordings peak at 0dBFS, the maximum possible level in the digital domain. This being the case, when the equaliser is required to apply positive boost, the level is likely to clip. To maintain sound quality, it is important to adjust the 'Gain Offset' setting under the I/O menu on the DEQ, or the 'Gain' setting under the A&B channels on the DCX. This should be reduced by the amount of gain applied by the equaliser. e.g. If the equaliser applies a +6dB boost at 100Hz, it is recommended that the Gain setting be adjusted to -7dB (-6dB plus one for luck).

With this in mind, just from looking at the iNuke settings one can see that the signal was being clipped to the CHT sub. Even if the volume level on the Onkyo would have been at -30, I think it still would have clipped.

It wouldn't show up in a measurement sweep by Omnimic that you are playing a clipped signal.
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post #746 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 04:51 PM
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What would make Audyssey to over drive the sub level like that? I understand that it's just trying to level the response and we then turned it up to -10DB but I have never seen Audyssey over drive a sub into distortion.
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post #747 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 05:03 PM
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Follow up question... Was this an issue with the Cap Pros too? Why or why not?
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post #748 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 05:40 PM
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The graph on the JTR's is what initially hit me. The Chase graph looks much better. The bandwidth of 20- 60 Hz is a very narrow section of the sound spectrum that most of us talk about and consider most relevant, 20 Hz -20 kHz. It has been my experience with PEQ and using an autocalibration program in the subwoofer bandwidth as a general rule, cut one peak and boost one frequency. In the case of sealed subs, the boosted frequency is usually 20-25 Hz due to the associated roll off of sealed subwoofer with this particular DSP program and should be no more than 3-6 db. Also a caveat is to boost wide and cut narrow when working in the subwoofer bandwidth. The use of multiple close filter can be solved by adjusting the Q. I tried using multiple closely placed filter when I first started using these amp. Over a period of time, I felt the SQ was much better when I used fewer filters. I use my subs mostly for music. Sometime I feel people are to focus on obtaining a straight line graph. Since the EQ of the system is the last step or should be in system adjustment, the less manipulation with PEQ, results in less manipulation of the autocalibration program room adjustment. I use MCACC along with the PEQ in the Berhinger. I am comfortable making recommendations for MCACC systems. I have not used Auddysee for several years and have no experience using it with one of the Berhinger amps. Even at the end of the day, PEQ does not solve all the problems in most room. MCACC has a standing wave correction program that seems to make the final subwoofer integration work really well. Maybe standing wave control in the room should be the last step in system adjustment, lol.

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post #749 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The input sensitivity on Behringer iNuke amps is .75v. This means that the iNuke can deliver maximum power when it receives a .75v signal. Josh Ricci has said the sub outputs on the Onkyo's he has measured have put out 10V. I believe most pro amps can accept up to 24 dBu on the inputs which equates to 12.28 volts. The gain knobs act as a voltage divider to reduce the voltage to the amp's input stage. With the iNuke being an A/D converter it might not accept as much voltage as a a typical amp.

Where you had the trim set on the subwoofer output of the Onkyo is irrelevant since Audyssey boosted bass and the volume control can push the digital signal on the Onkyo sub out to its maximum. At some point, increasing the sub trim can actually reduces all other channels since you can't go above 0dB digitally. Since we were playing fairly loud and since the bass was probably boosted by Audyssey, the actual digital signal going into the iNuke was probably fairly high. It could have actually been clipping the iNuke's A/D input before reaching the input stage of the amplifier but I doubt this was happening.

The A/D stage of the iNuke converts the signal back to digital at 0 dBfs to maintain a high signal to noise ratio. If you push this signal higher than 0 dBfs, it will just hard clip the peaks. Some devices, like the miniDSP, may compensate for this automatically. A pro device usually has a hands off policy leaving all decision making to the operator. This means that any increase in the PEQ section needs to be compensated for by reducing gain in the filter/crossover section. The DCX2496 is similar. This is referenced on the Behringer Mods website:
With this in mind, just from looking at the iNuke settings one can see that the signal was being clipped to the CHT sub. Even if the volume level on the Onkyo would have been at -30, I think it still would have clipped.

It wouldn't show up in a measurement sweep by Omnimic that you are playing a clipped signal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The input sensitivity on Behringer iNuke amps is .75v. This means that the iNuke can deliver maximum power when it receives a .75v signal. Josh Ricci has said the sub outputs on the Onkyo's he has measured have put out 10V. I believe most pro amps can accept up to 24 dBu on the inputs which equates to 12.28 volts. The gain knobs act as a voltage divider to reduce the voltage to the amp's input stage. With the iNuke being an A/D converter it might not accept as much voltage as a a typical amp.

Where you had the trim set on the subwoofer output of the Onkyo is irrelevant since Audyssey boosted bass and the volume control can push the digital signal on the Onkyo sub out to its maximum. At some point, increasing the sub trim can actually reduces all other channels since you can't go above 0dB digitally. Since we were playing fairly loud and since the bass was probably boosted by Audyssey, the actual digital signal going into the iNuke was probably fairly high. It could have actually been clipping the iNuke's A/D input before reaching the input stage of the amplifier but I doubt this was happening.

The A/D stage of the iNuke converts the signal back to digital at 0 dBfs to maintain a high signal to noise ratio. If you push this signal higher than 0 dBfs, it will just hard clip the peaks. Some devices, like the miniDSP, may compensate for this automatically. A pro device usually has a hands off policy leaving all decision making to the operator. This means that any increase in the PEQ section needs to be compensated for by reducing gain in the filter/crossover section. The DCX2496 is similar. This is referenced on the Behringer Mods website:
With this in mind, just from looking at the iNuke settings one can see that the signal was being clipped to the CHT sub. Even if the volume level on the Onkyo would have been at -30, I think it still would have clipped.

It wouldn't show up in a measurement sweep by Omnimic that you are playing a clipped signal.

This is exactly what happened. ^^^ (And thanks for posting this as most people with a passive sub never think about the input signal or poor power supply/cheesy DACs possible ill effects)

This simply goes to the designer, having no owner's manual and using a pro sound amp with no idea how it might best mate with the system/passive subwoofer.

If you look at the naked response of the Chase sub (what it presented to Audyssey) vs what the SM presents to Audyssey:



It's a safe bet Audyssey will apply far more low end boost to the Chase sub than pretty much any other sub.

My guess is that what Aud added plus what the DSP added def clipped the input with a heavy hitter like HTTYD or WOTW. There's no way that combination would have reached 12V with the other subs at the meet, but I will all but guarantee it did with the CHT sub.

The amps DSP should have been used to shelf off the top end to get a far more reasonable starting point and NO boost, then run Audyssey. That would have been the best you could expect from that sub.

To those who keep insisting the amp should have been bridged into 4 ohms, the owner should thank his rabbits foot it wasn't. About needing more power, I would agree, again, IF the sub was designed to handle more power, which it is not. Aud is enough to bottom the drivers with 'more' power when full bandwidth program is run through it and no protection is employed.

The bottom line is that, although the input signal could have been tamed one way or the other, the system is just flawed beyond reconciliation. It needs its amp tailored to its shortcomings and a smaller box and/or HPF to keep the sub in the box. The manufacturer should tell its customers what amount of power with what sort of signal shaping is appropriate for the drivers/box combo, including how to test the limits carefully to avoid damage to components.

Instead, they continued to insist that the actual naked response was not the actual naked response and just running Audyssey is all the owner needed to do.

When you deliver a recipe for disaster, you should expect disastrous results.
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post #750 of 848 Old 12-12-2013, 08:32 PM
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So, just to be clear. What you all are saying is that because the CHT woofer is inefficient, Audyssey over boosted its levels, combined with the DSP boost, made the input level on the iNuke to clip causing the distortion? What could we have done differently to have prevented this problem and is this test something we should attempt to recreate both correctly and with the same setup?
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