Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 29 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #841 of 864 Old 12-20-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

-which, I certainly did, obstruction being the intent around here. Bravo. Of course, I caught and deleted that remark when, after sifting this unmitigated barrage of unanswerable nonsense, it dawned on me that that's precisely its point.

It'll teach me not to engage on this level.

Wow. Now it's our fault that you post first, think later. Classic.

Literally. This is classic Chase morphing into "Chane".

Say what you want without regard for a basis in reality. Change your mind. Delete. Never happened. But if it did, it wasn't my fault.

Right?
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post #842 of 864 Old 12-20-2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Wow. Now it's our fault that you post first, think later. Classic.

Literally. This is classic Chase morphing into "Chane".

Say what you want without regard for a basis in reality. Change your mind. Delete. Never happened. But if it did, it wasn't my fault.

Right?

You got your mea culpa - as I said, I've learned not to (re)engage at this level, an instinct I formed weeks ago just before the first failed Chase narrative bombed. Now it's two down.

What I would do if I were you, though, is relabel all opposition all over again, preferably before the fact.

Classic morphing, I believe the term was, and something about a basis in reality.

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post #843 of 864 Old 12-20-2013, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

You got your mea culpa - as I said, I've learned not to (re)engage at this level, an instinct I formed weeks ago just before the first failed Chase narrative bombed. Now it's two down.

What I would do if I were you, though, is relabel all opposition all over again, preferably before the fact.

Classic morphing, I believe the term was, and something about a basis in reality.

A mea culpa would require admission of having made a mistake by one's own fault; not admission of having made a mistake by someone else's fault. tongue.gif

Regardless, let's continue- as it seems you've already decided to change your mind about "engaging on this level". rolleyes.gif

"No worries, he's sufficiently incoherent to have me making the same mistake, a blunder he's now taking me by the ear to the veritable woodshed over. I'm considering taking up needlepoint, little that I know.

Seriously, this kook is carping about a ten percent difference in Fs? Probably between two different samples or two different conditions, whichever? And without a concurrent analysis of how, given this monumental 10% margin of error/sample variation/conditional variable, given the same driver all other major parameters will adjust with it, bringing the system response back to probably within a few percent, or maybe a dB? In a system like any other anywhere in its class run with many dB of equalization and at-power thermal variations - like any driver - probably 10x that vast chasm of, what was it, the unholy deception of ten whole percent?

This guy knows less about the subject than he should ever admit in public."

Let's take that last line and let it sink in for a moment.

Quick again to post some simple math before even taking the time to understand the basic context.

The only "kook" carping about a ten percent difference in Fs would be Craig who, without sharing this 19.4Hz Fs measurement from Paul Apollonio at the time, used the same to throw all of my measurements out the window as "invalid". Because I had measured an Fs of 21.53Hz, nothing I had measured could be correct because Paul measured an Fs of 19.4Hz.... and there is just no way in the world this is reconcilable in our universe.

Ridiculous of course, but I don't have to explain why. You've done that well enough in this quoted post.

You see, Fs was never the issue. I measured a close-mic response, simulated the same response using T/S parameters I measured from a driver and compared them to the 23-200Hz +/-3dB specified response of the subwoofer as I had purchased it.

They were vastly different.

Craig denied all because he noticed a difference in Fs between my measurement and Paul's and was able to use that as his "out".

Now the truth comes out; the original spec from Eminence, my measurement, Paul's measurements. As you note, "two different samples or two different conditions..."; nothing here to justify throwing data out the window.

You know this. You've unknowingly argued my point here convincingly.

As for our mutual friend, I think you summed it up best:

"This guy knows less about the subject than he should ever admit in public."
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post #844 of 864 Old 12-20-2013, 01:09 PM
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Quietly acknowledging the past and moving on is a gift to all concerned forum members. No opinions are being changed on either side at this point and there is no merit in further feuding. Find something positive from all this discussion and consider it a personal keepsake!smile.gif
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post #845 of 864 Old 12-20-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Quietly acknowledging the past and moving on is a gift to all concerned forum members. No opinions are being changed on either side at this point and there is no merit in further feuding. Find something positive from all this discussion and consider it a personal keepsake!smile.gif

Well, which is it? You seem conflicted.
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Entering this debate is admirable because of the spewing of miss information and the misuse of data to support erroneous conclusions over at AVS is unacceptable on a science forum. Taking a stance against something that is wrong in information and the spirit of the debate is not something to be passive about, it is just a matter of planting one's feet firmly in what is right."

In any case, I heartily concur with "taking a stance against something that is wrong in information". tongue.gif

Also, to further respond to Lane's cheap shot about knowing "less about the subject than he should ever admit in public", I will gladly defer to many that have already posted in this thread and their knowledge of this subject and/or subwoofers in general. You won't get any argument from me.

Then again, I'm not the one taking people's money. wink.gif

I see Jon's chosen to flex his touted knowledge superiority in responding to my points in a very... interesting manner:

"Craig, if I re-moniker my account something vaguely alluding to vast expertise in bass, then can I post anonymous rubbish about bass response in general?

Like BassMaster. Or TenHurtz. Maybe DeciBelzQbed.

Because I think I'm seeing a trend over there."
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post #846 of 864 Old 12-22-2013, 09:04 AM
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Looks like Jon & Craig can't stay on the same page.

Craig decided he looks pretty foolish with Jon calling him out unintentionally and is going all out in defense of these Fs measurements (that were never in question by anyone but himself):
Quote:
Our drivers are measured pre burn in by Eminence. The follow up question is: Two measurements were taken on our Eminence driver. One is from an individual who seems to be obsessed with trashing our products. This is "A". The other measurement is from an industry professional with 30 years worth of experience in designing loudspeakers. This is "B". "B" has zero to gain or lose when measuring our products. He is getting a fee, and providing information as requested for his fee. This professional measures, with some of the best equipment available, a drop in Fs of 9.35% after the driver is broken in. The other party measures an increase of 0.6 %.

As a hobbyist, you are wanting to use the most accurate measurement for Fs before building your project. Will you take:

1. Measurement "A"
2. Measurement "B"

Jon unknowingly countering Craig's position that this difference is 'significant':
Quote:
Whoever this kook is he's also claimed it's deceptive to call a 21.40Hz Fs a 21.53Hz Fs.

-A difference of less than 0.1%, or well inside the measured specification of probably any pair of drivers ever made.
Quote:
Seriously, this kook is carping about a ten percent difference in Fs? Probably between two different samples or two different conditions, whichever? And without a concurrent analysis of how, given this monumental 10% margin of error/sample variation/conditional variable, given the same driver all other major parameters will adjust with it, bringing the system response back to probably within a few percent, or maybe a dB? In a system like any other anywhere in its class run with many dB of equalization and at-power thermal variations - like any driver - probably 10x that vast chasm of, what was it, the unholy deception of ten whole percent?

This guy knows less about the subject than he should ever admit in public.

Maybe Jon will come around and figure out who this 'kook' is he keeps referring to. Or perhaps "this guy", and what he should admit in public. We can only hope. tongue.gif
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post #847 of 864 Old 12-22-2013, 08:14 PM
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I find it utterly comical how much time some people will devote to cht bashing. How many countless hours have you lost now crafting up witty responses and analyzing every sentence that others post? I guess if it floats your boat, great.
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post #848 of 864 Old 12-22-2013, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post


You see, Fs was never the issue. I measured a close-mic response, simulated the same response using T/S parameters I measured from a driver and compared them to the 23-200Hz +/-3dB specified response of the subwoofer as I had purchased it.

They were vastly different.

Correct. That's all there is to it. Here it is (and always has been):



And, if you connect the passive version to a pro amp, as CHT has suggested, the F3 is even higher.
Quote:
"This guy knows less about the subject than he should ever admit in public."

"No worries, he's sufficiently incoherent..."

I don't know who this Jon guy is but he should probably lose the CHT method of debate and learn how to measure a sub, correctly read the results and state the response. After that, he can teach his new boss.

The sub never approached a 23-200 Hz (+/-) 3dB response, as the specs were published. The rest of this silly argument, that CHT has dragged out over years, is drivel.
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post #849 of 864 Old 05-22-2015, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Putting the subjective evaluations in this thread into some new perspective using new data-bass measurements.

The 2011 ported Captivator was used in this shootout. Its little brother, the 2015 JTR Captivator 1400 was measured on data-bass.com this week. So we can use some 3rd party data to generally compare data to the Chase 18.1 sealed and VTF15H which were measured previously. The older big brother Captivator originally came with a 4,000 watt amp, and would generally have had ~3dB more badwidth over the current 1,400 watt Captivator output shown below, if I understand correctly. There are some caveats in the data-bass comparison as it relates to this g2g. The 2011 caps weren't using Jeff's 4000 watt amp for the meet, because I owned the passive versions, and my caps were 20hz tuned, rather than 17hz tuned like the new ones. The iNuke DSP 3000, I was powering the Caps with at the meet was running in 2ohm stereo, and so the drivers were probably receiving more like 1,000-1,100 watts per channel in two ohm, and the Chase subs were also powered by the same iNuke DSP 3000, but in a different, less powerful impedance configuration as discussed heavily in this thread. So really it's probably just another perspective on the data we compiled at this g2g --- from another source.

Measurements at data-bass.com are taken at two meters, outdoors.





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"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

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post #850 of 864 Old 05-22-2015, 07:10 PM
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Jonathan, does it make you wish you had your ported Caps back?


Jeff was mentioning that the Cap 2400 had a 2dB advantage over the Cap 1400, would the Cap 4000 really only have a single dB advantage over the Cap 2400?
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post #851 of 864 Old 05-23-2015, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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3dB = conservative probably.




----------------
I do think the eight sealed have a slight advantage on the pair of captivators.
Honestly a slight advantage.


I do miss the wind swirling effect the captivators had because I have nothing of that sort now and FWIW, subjectively, I loved that!


I am super pleased with the nearfield 18" sealed subs. (5 are up front, 3 directly behind my main three seats). That upgrades the experience significantly over having all eight up front IMO.


I'd probably go back to Captivators up front without much/any? reservation, but I'd want to keep my nearfield sealed if I did. The sealed subsonic ULF frequencies, when the subs are all up front, just aren't tactically noticeable in my current room. (nor my last room).


That changes when I place the sealed nearfield, and sit mere inches away from the driver cone.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

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post #852 of 864 Old 05-23-2015, 03:21 PM
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The wind from the Cap did not add to the tactile response?
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post #853 of 864 Old Yesterday, 08:37 PM
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I'm getting two subs for movies. I don't see just a 'Captivator' on jtr website though. Which jtr is closest to the one in Shootout? S1 or 1400? And would that be best of two for movies at -5 to -10 listening levels?
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post #854 of 864 Old Yesterday, 08:47 PM
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1400 would be the closest to the Captivator Pro that was in the blind shootout. There was also a pair of Captivator S1's as well as a pair of orbit shifters.

They are all great with their own strengths. You'll have to pick the right one for your application.
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post #855 of 864 Old Yesterday, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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How big is your room DaveyMac?


In a larger room at -5dB or -10dB listening levels I'd pick up a couple Captivator 1400s or an Orbit Shifter pair.........unless you are going to buy even more multiples in the sealed.


I liked my pair of JTR Cap 2400 subs quite a bit better than four of my sealed DIY 18's because of the extra capability around the lower end of the audible spectrum at 20hz due to the ported alignment. In fact I'd argue (and have experienced) my two caps were competitive with about six of my DIY 18" sealed subs in real world use. (not simply looking at max output at higher bass frequencies because six on two would fast tip the balance toward the six 18" sealed subs --- but true 20hz to 120hz typical theater use --- the results are very competitive in my experience, because the ported alignment provides the extra output where the sealed are most limited. I had to get eight sealed 18" DIY subs in boxes to feel I had actually bested the ported Captivator pair I had. At that point the price to performance needle is buried in the ported subwoofer camp.


The advantages of the sealed in the subsonic frequencies to pressurize a theater room don't become applicable unless you meet one of the following criteria:
1) have a wooden suspended floor, or possibly a wooden riser
2) have the sealed nearfield firing directly into your chair
3) have a lot of sealed subwoofers, or have a small room

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
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2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

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post #856 of 864 Old Yesterday, 09:11 PM
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But think of the tatical nirvana you would be in if you meet all three of the criterias.
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post #857 of 864 Old Today, 03:36 AM
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I agree with Archaea's three conditions but, sealed subs advantages include great less than 15 Hz output in a smaller room. I am on concrete and get great tactile feel under and from the back/front with no subs nearfield and no riser for the large sectional.. I used a distributed bass system with 5 asymmetrically located subs in a 4300 cu ft. room. The system is composed of 3 dual sealed UM 18's and 2 vented UM 18's subs in roughly 10 cf boxes.

The vented boxes have roughly 10 db advantage compared to a single sealed UM 18 down to tuning. One way to look at things is the +/- 3 db point which is always better for the reflex design. But, if you look at the -10 db point, a sealed will do better. The vented sub drops like a rock at tuning due to the 24 db roll-off of the driver below tuning. Where as, the sealed boxes drop at 12 db roll-off.

Risers, room size and width, near field subs and using a line array will make a big difference in a dedicated HT for those designing a new HT.

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post #858 of 864 Old Today, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
How big is your room DaveyMac?


In a larger room at -5dB or -10dB listening levels I'd pick up a couple Captivator 1400s or an Orbit Shifter or 2.........unless you are going to buy multiples in the sealed.


I liked my pair of JTR Cap 2400 subs quite a bit better than four of my sealed DIY 18's because of the extra capability around the lower end of the audible spectrum at 20hz due to the ported alignment. In fact I'd argue my two caps were competitive with about six of my DIY 18" sealed subs in real world use. (not simply looking at max output at 90hz cause six on two would balance toward the six 18" sealed subs --- but true 20hz to 120hz typical theater use --- the results are very competitive in my experience. I had to get eight sealed 18" DIY subs in boxes to feel I had actually bested the ported Captivator pair I had.


The advantages of the sealed in the subsonic frequencies to pressurize the room don't become applicable unless you meet one of the following criteria
1) have a wooden suspended floor
2) have the sealed nearfield firing directly into your chair
3) have a lot of them or have a small room.






Here is picture of my crappy room! Current (2) HSU VTF3 MK5 subs not pictured:


One sub is in corner where this picture was taken from. The other one is in the corner that is to right of TV, in the corner that is in middle of this picture.


Unfortunately, after moving subs to every single conceivable place in room, including nearfield postions - these two spots are the only places that give flat frequency response.


When I got the two subs I actually put them on SubDude pads.. maybe I shouldn't have done that if I like the room shaking? doh !


I do have one of your conditions met: Floor is wooden on a second floor (basement underneath).


I have it narrowed down for sure to SubM, JTR 1400 or JTR S1. And the more I'm thinking about it I'm leaning heavily towards SubM. My thought is that they are more versatile, take up less space, I could always add more if I moved or wanted them, etc.


But I want to make my decision on the assumption that I will only have two. My room is so open I'm worried I might need the ported 1400 because of all the open space.


I don't supposed that dual opposed drivers somehow make it so a nearfield one might give me even response?


I'm also indecisive because this shootout indicates JTR was best for movies, and that is primary usage.
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post #859 of 864 Old Today, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post





Here is picture of my crappy room! Current (2) HSU VTF3 MK5 subs not pictured:


One sub is in corner where this picture was taken from. The other one is in the corner that is to right of TV, in the corner that is in middle of this picture.


Unfortunately, after moving subs to every single conceivable place in room, including nearfield postions - these two spots are the only places that give flat frequency response.


When I got the two subs I actually put them on SubDude pads.. maybe I shouldn't have done that if I like the room shaking? doh !


I do have one of your conditions met: Floor is wooden on a second floor (basement underneath).


I have it narrowed down for sure to SubM, JTR 1400 or JTR S1. And the more I'm thinking about it I'm leaning heavily towards SubM. My thought is that they are more versatile, take up less space, I could always add more if I moved or wanted them, etc.


But I want to make my decision on the assumption that I will only have two. My room is so open I'm worried I might need the ported 1400 because of all the open space.


I don't supposed that dual opposed drivers somehow make it so a nearfield one might give me even response?


I'm also indecisive because this shootout indicates JTR was best for movies, and that is primary usage.

Open space is overrated IMO. To me the more important variable is how close you are to the sub(s). I remember when I sold my svs years ago. It had all the impact of a fart in my room but in the guys room I sold it to it was far more impressive and he had a lot of openings from his living room that made his overall space MUCH larger than mine but he was closer to the sub and on a suspended floor.
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post #860 of 864 Old Today, 11:22 AM
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^^^ do opposed woofers (subM) interact with rooms differently?

I can't have current subs nearfield and get reasonably even response. Is having two subM kind of like having four subs? So maybe in my same room I could get even response with one nearfield?
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post #861 of 864 Old Today, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
^^^ do opposed woofers (subM) interact with rooms differently?

I can't have current subs nearfield and get reasonably even response. Is having two subM kind of like having four subs? So maybe in my same room I could get even response with one nearfield?
I think they do have a slight difference, but in my room the submersive measured VERY similarly to a DIY sealed sub (single 18" driver) with some low end boosting dsp. The Submersive was stacked on top of the DIY sub for the measurements. I'll check and see if I can dig up that measurement... I have a million and I'm not tidy with my folders...
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post #862 of 864 Old Today, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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DaveyMac,
I agree with carp,


In my measuring experiences with the Submersive in several different rooms against several other sub at g2g's, it did appear the dual opposed drivers had a slight advantage over a single driver in smoothing out the frequency response at the listening position.


Not as much smoothing effect as having two distinct subwoofer boxes in different proper places, but a slight benefit over a single driver.


I think we've talked about this in a couple of older threads and it was a reasonable conclusion to draw.
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"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
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post #863 of 864 Unread Today, 04:39 PM
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Oh man I'm like a kid waiting for Xmas reading this, I pick up my Cap 4000 this weekend

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post #864 of 864 Unread Today, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
DaveyMac,
I agree with carp,


In my measuring experiences with the Submersive in several different rooms against several other sub at g2g's, it did appear the dual opposed drivers had a slight advantage over a single driver in smoothing out the frequency response at the listening position.


Not as much smoothing effect as having two distinct subwoofer boxes in different proper places, but a slight benefit over a single driver.


I think we've talked about this in a couple of older threads and it was a reasonable conclusion to draw.
I think they start to couple at a certain frequency depending on how far apart the drivers are. Farther apart lowering the freq at which the couple. I see this when I had an dual opposed sealed sub and I can also measure this with varying space between the two OS's I have in the front of the room.

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