Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 29 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #841 of 852 Old 12-20-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

-which, I certainly did, obstruction being the intent around here. Bravo. Of course, I caught and deleted that remark when, after sifting this unmitigated barrage of unanswerable nonsense, it dawned on me that that's precisely its point.

It'll teach me not to engage on this level.

Wow. Now it's our fault that you post first, think later. Classic.

Literally. This is classic Chase morphing into "Chane".

Say what you want without regard for a basis in reality. Change your mind. Delete. Never happened. But if it did, it wasn't my fault.

Right?
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post #842 of 852 Old 12-20-2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Wow. Now it's our fault that you post first, think later. Classic.

Literally. This is classic Chase morphing into "Chane".

Say what you want without regard for a basis in reality. Change your mind. Delete. Never happened. But if it did, it wasn't my fault.

Right?

You got your mea culpa - as I said, I've learned not to (re)engage at this level, an instinct I formed weeks ago just before the first failed Chase narrative bombed. Now it's two down.

What I would do if I were you, though, is relabel all opposition all over again, preferably before the fact.

Classic morphing, I believe the term was, and something about a basis in reality.

Jon Lane
Chane Music & Cinema
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post #843 of 852 Old 12-20-2013, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

You got your mea culpa - as I said, I've learned not to (re)engage at this level, an instinct I formed weeks ago just before the first failed Chase narrative bombed. Now it's two down.

What I would do if I were you, though, is relabel all opposition all over again, preferably before the fact.

Classic morphing, I believe the term was, and something about a basis in reality.

A mea culpa would require admission of having made a mistake by one's own fault; not admission of having made a mistake by someone else's fault. tongue.gif

Regardless, let's continue- as it seems you've already decided to change your mind about "engaging on this level". rolleyes.gif

"No worries, he's sufficiently incoherent to have me making the same mistake, a blunder he's now taking me by the ear to the veritable woodshed over. I'm considering taking up needlepoint, little that I know.

Seriously, this kook is carping about a ten percent difference in Fs? Probably between two different samples or two different conditions, whichever? And without a concurrent analysis of how, given this monumental 10% margin of error/sample variation/conditional variable, given the same driver all other major parameters will adjust with it, bringing the system response back to probably within a few percent, or maybe a dB? In a system like any other anywhere in its class run with many dB of equalization and at-power thermal variations - like any driver - probably 10x that vast chasm of, what was it, the unholy deception of ten whole percent?

This guy knows less about the subject than he should ever admit in public."

Let's take that last line and let it sink in for a moment.

Quick again to post some simple math before even taking the time to understand the basic context.

The only "kook" carping about a ten percent difference in Fs would be Craig who, without sharing this 19.4Hz Fs measurement from Paul Apollonio at the time, used the same to throw all of my measurements out the window as "invalid". Because I had measured an Fs of 21.53Hz, nothing I had measured could be correct because Paul measured an Fs of 19.4Hz.... and there is just no way in the world this is reconcilable in our universe.

Ridiculous of course, but I don't have to explain why. You've done that well enough in this quoted post.

You see, Fs was never the issue. I measured a close-mic response, simulated the same response using T/S parameters I measured from a driver and compared them to the 23-200Hz +/-3dB specified response of the subwoofer as I had purchased it.

They were vastly different.

Craig denied all because he noticed a difference in Fs between my measurement and Paul's and was able to use that as his "out".

Now the truth comes out; the original spec from Eminence, my measurement, Paul's measurements. As you note, "two different samples or two different conditions..."; nothing here to justify throwing data out the window.

You know this. You've unknowingly argued my point here convincingly.

As for our mutual friend, I think you summed it up best:

"This guy knows less about the subject than he should ever admit in public."
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post #844 of 852 Old 12-20-2013, 01:09 PM
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Quietly acknowledging the past and moving on is a gift to all concerned forum members. No opinions are being changed on either side at this point and there is no merit in further feuding. Find something positive from all this discussion and consider it a personal keepsake!smile.gif
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post #845 of 852 Old 12-20-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quietly acknowledging the past and moving on is a gift to all concerned forum members. No opinions are being changed on either side at this point and there is no merit in further feuding. Find something positive from all this discussion and consider it a personal keepsake!smile.gif

Well, which is it? You seem conflicted.
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Entering this debate is admirable because of the spewing of miss information and the misuse of data to support erroneous conclusions over at AVS is unacceptable on a science forum. Taking a stance against something that is wrong in information and the spirit of the debate is not something to be passive about, it is just a matter of planting one's feet firmly in what is right."

In any case, I heartily concur with "taking a stance against something that is wrong in information". tongue.gif

Also, to further respond to Lane's cheap shot about knowing "less about the subject than he should ever admit in public", I will gladly defer to many that have already posted in this thread and their knowledge of this subject and/or subwoofers in general. You won't get any argument from me.

Then again, I'm not the one taking people's money. wink.gif

I see Jon's chosen to flex his touted knowledge superiority in responding to my points in a very... interesting manner:

"Craig, if I re-moniker my account something vaguely alluding to vast expertise in bass, then can I post anonymous rubbish about bass response in general?

Like BassMaster. Or TenHurtz. Maybe DeciBelzQbed.

Because I think I'm seeing a trend over there."
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post #846 of 852 Old 12-22-2013, 09:04 AM
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Looks like Jon & Craig can't stay on the same page.

Craig decided he looks pretty foolish with Jon calling him out unintentionally and is going all out in defense of these Fs measurements (that were never in question by anyone but himself):
Quote:
Our drivers are measured pre burn in by Eminence. The follow up question is: Two measurements were taken on our Eminence driver. One is from an individual who seems to be obsessed with trashing our products. This is "A". The other measurement is from an industry professional with 30 years worth of experience in designing loudspeakers. This is "B". "B" has zero to gain or lose when measuring our products. He is getting a fee, and providing information as requested for his fee. This professional measures, with some of the best equipment available, a drop in Fs of 9.35% after the driver is broken in. The other party measures an increase of 0.6 %.

As a hobbyist, you are wanting to use the most accurate measurement for Fs before building your project. Will you take:

1. Measurement "A"
2. Measurement "B"

Jon unknowingly countering Craig's position that this difference is 'significant':
Quote:
Whoever this kook is he's also claimed it's deceptive to call a 21.40Hz Fs a 21.53Hz Fs.

-A difference of less than 0.1%, or well inside the measured specification of probably any pair of drivers ever made.
Quote:
Seriously, this kook is carping about a ten percent difference in Fs? Probably between two different samples or two different conditions, whichever? And without a concurrent analysis of how, given this monumental 10% margin of error/sample variation/conditional variable, given the same driver all other major parameters will adjust with it, bringing the system response back to probably within a few percent, or maybe a dB? In a system like any other anywhere in its class run with many dB of equalization and at-power thermal variations - like any driver - probably 10x that vast chasm of, what was it, the unholy deception of ten whole percent?

This guy knows less about the subject than he should ever admit in public.

Maybe Jon will come around and figure out who this 'kook' is he keeps referring to. Or perhaps "this guy", and what he should admit in public. We can only hope. tongue.gif
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post #847 of 852 Old 12-22-2013, 08:14 PM
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I find it utterly comical how much time some people will devote to cht bashing. How many countless hours have you lost now crafting up witty responses and analyzing every sentence that others post? I guess if it floats your boat, great.
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post #848 of 852 Old 12-22-2013, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post


You see, Fs was never the issue. I measured a close-mic response, simulated the same response using T/S parameters I measured from a driver and compared them to the 23-200Hz +/-3dB specified response of the subwoofer as I had purchased it.

They were vastly different.

Correct. That's all there is to it. Here it is (and always has been):



And, if you connect the passive version to a pro amp, as CHT has suggested, the F3 is even higher.
Quote:
"This guy knows less about the subject than he should ever admit in public."

"No worries, he's sufficiently incoherent..."

I don't know who this Jon guy is but he should probably lose the CHT method of debate and learn how to measure a sub, correctly read the results and state the response. After that, he can teach his new boss.

The sub never approached a 23-200 Hz (+/-) 3dB response, as the specs were published. The rest of this silly argument, that CHT has dragged out over years, is drivel.
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post #849 of 852 Old Yesterday, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Putting the subjective evaluations in this thread into some new perspective using new data-bass measurements.

The 2011 ported Captivator was used in this shootout. Its little brother, the 2015 JTR Captivator 1400 was measured on data-bass.com this week. So we can use some 3rd party data to generally compare data to the Chase 18.1 sealed and VTF15H which were measured previously. The older big brother Captivator originally came with a 4,000 watt amp, and would generally have had ~3dB more badwidth over the current 1,400 watt Captivator output shown below, if I understand correctly. There are some caveats in the data-bass comparison as it relates to this g2g. The 2011 caps weren't using Jeff's 4000 watt amp for the meet, because I owned the passive versions, and my caps were 20hz tuned, rather than 17hz tuned like the new ones. The iNuke DSP 3000, I was powering the Caps with at the meet was running in 2ohm stereo, and so the drivers were probably receiving more like 1,000-1,100 watts per channel in two ohm, and the Chase subs were also powered by the same iNuke DSP 3000, but in a different, less powerful impedance configuration as discussed heavily in this thread. So really it's probably just another perspective on the data we compiled at this g2g --- from another source.

Measurements at data-bass.com are taken at two meters, outdoors.





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"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

Last edited by Archaea; Yesterday at 04:39 PM.
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post #850 of 852 Old Yesterday, 07:10 PM
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Jonathan, does it make you wish you had your ported Caps back?


Jeff was mentioning that the Cap 2400 had a 2dB advantage over the Cap 1400, would the Cap 4000 really only have a single dB advantage over the Cap 2400?
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post #851 of 852 Old Today, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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3dB = conservative probably.




----------------
I do think the eight sealed have a slight advantage on the pair of captivators.
Honestly a slight advantage.


I do miss the wind swirling effect the captivators had because I have nothing of that sort now and FWIW, subjectively, I loved that!


I am super pleased with the nearfield 18" sealed subs. (5 are up front, 3 directly behind my main three seats). That upgrades the experience significantly over having all eight up front IMO.


I'd probably go back to Captivators up front without much/any? reservation, but I'd want to keep my nearfield sealed if I did. The sealed subsonic ULF frequency just isn't tactically noticeable without the nearfield in my current room, (nor my last room).

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #852 of 852 Unread Today, 03:21 PM
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The wind from the Cap did not add to the tactile response?
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