Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 09:19 AM
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It's hard work, dedication, and grout cracking threads like these that helped convince me to go from a $400 sub to a $2000+ sub. Well done. Mark and Jeff have earned permanent interest from me in my home theater endeavors from now on.

Expect an order from me soon once I sell off my old HT equipment to help pay for one of these budget busters.
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post #182 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 09:24 AM
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I dont get why Jedi doesn't like Ported Caps. THEY DESTROYED THE MUSIC BY LIKE 4 x ANYTHING ELSE.

There, is that better Archaea? I'm being really open.

They placed 5th on my movies list though, despite Archaea trying to tell me they didn't.
------------------------------
I still maintain that Audyssey screws up subs in some instances with too much boost, and if the sub isn't designed to take it...

I was told the inuke was benched at 475 W x 2 channels @ 8 ohms. That isn't too far off the Dayton listed specs. So I'm not sure a difference in amps would really matter. BUT, until we see the FR graphs identified with each sub, we probably won't know as much, or the Omnimic graphs, as to how much boost Audyssey was dishing out.

Once I get my DIY project done, I hope to use J River Media Center with Desertdome's tutoring and bypass Audyssey.

For those that don't have an ace EQ man sitting around, Audyssey or the EQ that comes with your AVR is probably good enough, but I still think you need to go in and look at what sort of boost it is setting for your subs if you aren't running a HPF and adjust as needed to keep everything sounding good.
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post #183 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Jedimastergrant!

I'd love to have a listen and assist with setup if possible when you get your sub choices in... I wasn't trying to start a ported vs. sealed discussion as i've pretty plainly realized nobody knows the difference anyway through this whole event. I was responding to post number 122 in this thread where carp thought you liked ported cap better for both sealed and music and pointed that out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=122

I was reading this from my mobile phone at the time and didn't go back and look at the scoresheet to verify. I saw your reply post say - yeah but I might be missing something and I thought - doh...

Anyway

After actually reading your score card it looks like to me you liked the SubM the best. So I think carp must have been confused --- or I'm still confused or something. The message I was trying to communicate in my comment was simply that each person should go with what they liked the best in blind testing - it doesn't get any more transparent as to what you like! So I agree with you - go sealed! I have no problem with that idea since you did, in fact, like sealed better!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #184 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I dont get why Jedi doesn't like Ported Caps. THEY DESTROYED THE MUSIC BY LIKE 4 x ANYTHING ELSE.

There, is that better Archaea? I'm being really open.

Don't put a rolleyes smiley in there to pretend like you didn't say that bolded line to me during the meet on saturday. I have witnesses to you saying exactly that.

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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

They placed 5th on my movies list though, despite Archaea trying to tell me they didn't.

.......That might have a little to do with the inuke amp completely rebooting 3 times during the movie clips and perhaps being on border clip a good portion of the time. You seem to think clipping or amp issues may have affected another sub pair.

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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

------------------------------
I still maintain that Audyssey screws up subs in some instances with too much boost, and if the sub isn't designed to take it...

I was told the inuke was benched at 475 W x 2 channels @ 8 ohms. That isn't too far off the Dayton listed specs. So I'm not sure a difference in amps would really matter. BUT, until we see the FR graphs identified with each sub, we probably won't know as much, or the Omnimic graphs, as to how much boost Audyssey was dishing out.

Once I get my DIY project done, I hope to use J River Media Center with Desertdome's tutoring and bypass Audyssey.

For those that don't have an ace EQ man sitting around, Audyssey or the EQ that comes with your AVR is probably good enough, but I still think you need to go in and look at what sort of boost it is setting for your subs if you aren't running a HPF and adjust as needed to keep everything sounding good

All the subs may have been running a little bit hotter that day as compared to normal test days with Audyssey to overcome extra absorption in the room with the extra equipment 20 some big subwoofer drivers and lots of people.

I'm putting them up shortly...Working on it now. I stayed home sick today cause my cold I thought was nearly gone came back with ferocity. Hope I didn't get any of you sick.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #185 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

^ THAT is a HUGE party foul!

Your man card is revoked immediately!

You realize you just did the equivalent of asking my wife to poker night.

LOL...I know...I think my desire for the comedic value of having your wife post here temporarily overrode the man code....

Archaea: So guys, I was thinking of moving my caps around to see how it affects the room nodes etc..etc

Mrs. Archaea: Hey hon, sorry to interrupt, but we're low on milk and bread...can you pick some up on the way home? And don't forget to stop at Home Depot to get some grout to fix the damage from that Galaxy Crusher thingie you had at the house?

Archaea:....Dang!!!!

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post #186 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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lol

i'm in sooooo much trouble...

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #187 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 09:44 AM
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Fantastic work guys - we won't replicate the blind test at the mid Atlantic GTG next month, but after reading your posts, looking forward to it even more than before.

A quick question:

Given the concerns being raised here and elsewhere about sub setup and the subs tested from CHT, I was wondering if CHT was invited to attend and/or send other subs to the GTG?
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post #188 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Fantastic work guys - we won't replicate the blind test at the mid Atlantic GTG next month, but after reading your posts, looking forward to it even more than before.

A quick question:

Given the concerns being raised here and elsewhere about sub setup and the subs tested from CHT, I was wondering if CHT was invited to attend and/or send other subs to the GTG?

Invited yes, but asking CHT to drive even farther after coming to the Omaha GTG is stretching it. As we discussed earlier, we were suppose to have 4 18s there not 2 but sometimes things dont work out.
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post #189 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matman1970 View Post

LOL...I know...I think my desire for the comedic value of having your wife post here temporarily overrode the man code....

Archaea: So guys, I was thinking of moving my caps around to see how it affects the room nodes etc..etc

Mrs. Archaea: Hey hon, sorry to interrupt, but we're low on milk and bread...can you pick some up on the way home? And don't forget to stop at Home Depot to get some grout to fix the damage from that Galaxy Crusher thingie you had at the house?

Archaea:....Dang!!!!

`
I was attempting to explain to my live-in girlfriend how important this GTG was and she had a wonderful idea. She asked, why don't some of you guys hold a GTG and a blind test for comparing Plasma TVs with LCDs . . . . .
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post #190 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 11:49 AM
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The averaged seat responses are up.

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge - Stephen Hawking

 

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post #191 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

The averaged seat responses are up.


Wow. There are a few surprises there.

By far, the flattest are the MFW pair.

The Cap S pair is so very un-flat.

The Cap Pro's actually out-SPL'd the Orbit Shifters.
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post #192 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

desertdome is done cheating until the next GTG.

How do think the DIY Dual Opposed MFW-15 Turbos had such a flat frequency response?
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post #193 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Wow. There are a few surprises there.

By far, the flattest are the MFW pair.

The Cap S pair is so very un-flat.

The Cap Pro's actually out-SPL'd the Orbit Shifters.

yes - Jeff actually furrowed his brow a bit on that one, and we weren't sure what happened there - but when talking it over he quickly shook his shoulders and volunteered 'it is what it is - run with it'. he knew that every sub was being treated alike in setup, and watched the whole process for nearly every sub. Remember this was the premeir of both the Cap S and the Orbit Shifter. Audyssey may be to blame, my room may be to blame, or Jeff may need to take a second look at his DSP settings. We wouldn't know without further testing and Jeff and Mark couldn't stick around the next day (nor did I ask them to) as they had a 9 hour trip back home.

I agree - there were some surprises!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #194 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Wow. There are a few surprises there.

By far, the flattest are the MFW pair.

The Cap S pair is so very un-flat.

The Cap Pro's actually out-SPL'd the Orbit Shifters.

Remember the curve you see is what Audyssey did to the response for the 5 mic locations used, and the graph shown is an AVERAGE of all listening seats. This means some seats were stronger at some frequencies and some seats were lower at other frequencies.

That said, to my ears these response curves were not terribly surprising. The only response curve I saw before now was the Captivator Pros and the SubMersive HP which I saw after the SubMersive's demo. It was amusing that I went back to Archea and told him it sounded pretty good, but if I was dialing this in myself I'd probably tilt the response up 4-6dB on the bottom. He then showed me the response:


The MFW-15s did sound very smooth and balanced, but not as intense, and the Orbit Shifter sounded a bit more aggressive/thumpy on the kick drums than I'd prefer. Interestingly, the MFW-15s were operated as only a single channel as they only used one amp to drive the 4 drivers/2 boxes.

Audyssey did do a good job of minimizing the most obvious sonic signatures of the different subs and sub types, and the same exact process was used for each sub. As Archea noted in his first post, the comparison was what it was, and a valid attempt within the limits of using Audyssey as the calibration tool, just as many enthusiasts might.

In order to do something like this with even higher precision matching, you would need a full day of setup to EQ every sub and save the settings before hand, and someone performing the EQ that was comfortable being under the microscope on the exact process by which they applied EQ.

Of course such a comparison would be less informative to those who don't measure and make certain that every sub in their system has the identical response...

While I know most enthusiasts haven't beat on enough subs of various design types in the same room to know what different qualities become audible, even apart from the frequency response at the listening position. It was very easy for me to hear the sonic fingerprint, especially when pushed a little, of the SubMersive HP & MFW-15 subs which I designed and knew very well, as well as the Orbit Shifter as Jeff & I tamed more than a few beastly bass horns in home theaters back in our ServoDrive days.

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post #195 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Remember the curve you see is what Audyssey did to the response for the 5 mic locations used, and the graph shown is an AVERAGE of all listening seats.

That right there is an excellent point.
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post #196 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

How do think the DIY Dual Opposed MFW-15 Turbos had such a flat frequency response?

All the hard work and design and engineering mark and I put into it

and yes I am surprised as much as anyone else

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post #197 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 01:02 PM
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I know it's an average of all the seats but if you look at the difference in the mid-bass between my subs (ported Caps) and the 2 subs I loved for music (Submersive and sealed Caps) that could help explain why I was not impressed with my own sub for music. There is a huge difference from 40hz and up. There were only 2 subs that made me involuntarily bob my head to music (music I don't even like!), and they coincidentally have by far the highest average above 40ish.

Movies.... not so sure on that one. Jeff says he can tell I like bass above 40hz and if my seat was anything like what I see on the graph, he's right for sure so maybe that works for movies and not just music.

Am I grasping at straws here and should "just get over it and get a Submersive" like Greg says? Maybe... but I know I'll be trying to duplicate that Submersive/Cap sealed curve with my sms-1 as soon as I get a chance!!

BTW, during the music I was really wishing I had asked (more like begged since I know he wouldn't want to do it) Jonathan to add a metal song clip or two into the mix. A little Slayer would have been nice...
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post #198 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

I know it's an average of all the seats but if you look at the difference in the mid-bass between my subs (ported Caps) and the 2 subs I loved for music (Submersive and sealed Caps) that could help explain why I was not impressed with my own sub for music. There is a huge difference from 40hz and up. There were only 2 subs that made me involuntarily bob my head to music (music I don't even like!), and they coincidentally have by far the highest average above 40ish.

Movies.... not so sure on that one. Jeff says he can tell I like bass above 40hz and if my seat was anything like what I see on the graph, he's right for sure so maybe that works for movies and not just music.

Am I grasping at straws here and should "just get over it and get a Submersive" like Greg says? Maybe... but I know I'll be trying to duplicate that Submersive/Cap sealed curve with my sms-1 as soon as I get a chance!!

BTW, during the music I was really wishing I had asked (more like begged since I know he wouldn't want to do it) Jonathan to add a metal song clip or two into the mix. A little Slayer would have been nice...

Slayer doesn't have bass...You wanted to audition static noise...

In that case you should have been helping us setup and could have listened to pink noise throughout the day!

Perhaps it will help you when you see the DSP filters parametric EQ filters applied to the Cap pros. I cut out a LOT of the very stuff you love in attempt to try to make it flat...I'm sorry - was going to what we are all supposed to like! - as flat as possible... :P

so for you - there may be hope as you needn't worry about flat. Unplug that SMS-1 all together and see if you like that sound! :P If not sell the caps and buy your fav!


Look at these EQ settings in the DSP for the Cap Pros. I believe I may be responsible for your unhappiness.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #199 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

How do think the DIY Dual Opposed MFW-15 Turbos had such a flat frequency response?

All the hard work and long nights spent from selecting the drivers and implementing these into a proper enclosure. It will be fun to see how your team implements the omega pi drivers. Probably another flat frequency response at the next GTG with high scores. You are hired when I order my 4-8 rythmik kits .

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post #200 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 02:11 PM
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Archaea - Did you happen to at least once feel BHD during the setups?

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge - Stephen Hawking

 

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post #201 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 02:45 PM
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The thread over at CHT was starting to turn bad. Something about "smelling bad" in relation to this GTG, now the thread is gone/bad link while I was reading it.
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post #202 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

Archaea - Did you happen to at least once feel BHD during the setups?

Not even when I walked up to the orbit shifter and stood touching it during the BHD clip post blind audition demo session.

I guess I don't feel or hear that subsonic stuff any more than the way a ported sub reproduces it. That's not to say a sealed sub isn't tactile, but to me not any more than my Cap pro pair.

That 'underwater' description people give for sealed sub subsonic material....I never felt it yesterday, and I never felt it ever. (granted I wasn't in the prime listening position the whole day) but I did get to engage in those seats up front on a couple occassions after those guys that didn't stay the whole day left. With the sealed subs I never had an ahaa moment of any sorts - even though I was straining to find it.

Maybe my subsonic sensing mechanisms are broken.

carp said he felt the underwater sensation that subsonics give him clearly on the sealed subs at both this meet and the last KC meet. I'm sensory deficient it appears.

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post #203 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

The thread over at CHT was starting to turn bad. Something about "smelling bad" in relation to this GTG, now the thread is gone/bad link while I was reading it.

expectations were too high - and random excuses and finger pointings were not the right answer... I wish Craig and his company well, but I don't think they are handling this in the best way.

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post #204 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

The thread over at CHT was starting to turn bad. Something about "smelling bad" in relation to this GTG, now the thread is gone/bad link while I was reading it.

I wish I had saved that one.

The owner posted some pretty damning things about some of his customers and their competency to setup his subs properly. He also contradicted himself and the GTG participants on when he was contacted about the "issue" - the thread was pulled after that.
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post #205 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I wish I had saved that one.

Craig posted some pretty damning things about some of his owners and their competency to setup his subs properly. He also contradicted himself and the GTG participants on when he was contacted about the "issue" - the thread was pulled after that.

That must have been page 11? that's when I got the bad link.
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post #206 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

That must have been page 11? that's when I got the bad link.

It was close to the end of the thread.

To be fair, there were a number of owners who were entirely rational about the results and the need to have realistic expectations, but they were swamped by the conspiracy theorists.
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post #207 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:02 PM
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The thread over at CHT was starting to turn bad. Something about "smelling bad" in relation to this GTG, now the thread is gone/bad link while I was reading it.

The whole GTG thread is gone, nada. I read it yesterday and early this morning. Pretty sad when you gotta delete a whole thread, must not have been going their way. Oh well.
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post #208 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:03 PM
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Wow, what a bummer - the thread disappeared when I was through about page 5, so I must have missed the fireworks. Just deleting the whole thread doesn't seem like the right way to handle it - maybe delete a post or two or lock the thread, but not delete the whole thing.
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post #209 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Not even when I walked up to the orbit shifter and stood touching it during the BHD clip post blind audition demo session.

I guess I don't feel or hear that subsonic stuff any more than the way a ported sub reproduces it. That's not to say a sealed sub isn't tactile, but to me not any more than my Cap pro pair.

That 'underwater' description people give for sealed sub subsonic material....I never felt it yesterday, and I never felt it ever. (granted I wasn't in the prime listening position the whole day) but I did get to engage in those seats up front on a couple occassions after those guys that didn't stay the whole day left. With the sealed subs I never had an ahaa moment of any sorts - even though I was straining to find it.

Maybe my subsonic sensing mechanisms are broken.

carp said he felt the underwater sensation that subsonics give him clearly on the sealed subs at both this meet and the last KC meet. I'm sensory deficient it appears.

I have an easy test for this you can do in a jiffy. Download some individual test tones from 14-19hz, toss them on your system in the 15hz tune, and turn it to -10MV. Play each one and turn it up or down until you can audibly hear it. For me, 14hz is audible at -15MV, but there's a huge jump in volume when you go up to 16hz - I can hear that at -25MV. See if you can hear that stuff when you have time. I'm betting you can.

P.S. Sorry to hear the other thread got out of hand. That can happen over there, but I wouldn't let it distract you from all the good you did here. Thanks again!
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post #210 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

I have an easy test for this you can do in a jiffy. Download some individual test tones from 14-19hz, toss them on your system in the 15hz tune, and turn it to -10MV. Play each one and turn it up or down until you can audibly hear it. For me, 14hz is audible at -15MV, but there's a huge jump in volume when you go up to 16hz - I can hear that at -25MV. See if you can hear that stuff when you have time. I'm betting you can.

P.S. Sorry to hear the other thread got out of hand. That can happen over there, but I wouldn't let it distract you from all the good you did here. Thanks again!

I've done it before...I can't hear anything below about 16 or 17hz regardless of volume...I can hear air moving if I continue to turn it up but not sound. For the tactile feel that occurs at those volumes - just turn the subs up a couple dB's and you'll more than cover for it - IMO. Different folks - different strokes.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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