Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Maybe my subsonic sensing mechanisms are broken.

carp said he felt the underwater sensation that subsonics give him clearly on the sealed subs at both this meet and the last KC meet. I'm sensory deficient it appears.

No, since your Cap Pros can't reproduce it, you can't feel it usually.

I'm not sure what the difference of a 18hz and 8hz would feel like though. I felt something during BHD.
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post #212 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post


I felt something during BHD.

It was a cat brushing against your leg

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post #213 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

expectations were too high - and random excuses and finger pointings were not the right answer... I wish Craig and his company well, but I don't think they are handling this in the best way.

As I understand it, it wouldn't be the first time things have gotten deleted when they don't go his way.

It was outgunned as was the HSU's (I own two) and i'm not surprised DBwise. I still enjoyed the comments.

I wonder if some of the "customers competence" was directed at the amp choice?. The thing is/was I don't recall anyone bad mouthing the CHT here.
It was rated blind like the rest.
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post #214 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I've done it before...I can't hear anything below about 16 or 17hz regardless of volume...I can hear air moving if I continue to turn it up but not sound. For the tactile feel that occurs at those volumes - just turn the subs up a couple dB's and you'll more than cover for it - IMO. Different folks - different strokes.

But...have you done it...on weed? Just kidding.

Honestly, though, have you done it with the 15hz tuning? There's a significant difference to me. I think it's because, under tuning, the driver is unloading and it's nothing but distortion, not the fundamental frequency. (That may be way off - I'm no expert!)
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post #215 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

expectations were too high - and random excuses and finger pointings were not the right answer... I wish Craig and his company well, but I don't think they are handling this in the best way.

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Originally Posted by nube View Post

I have an easy test for this you can do in a jiffy. Download some individual test tones from 14-19hz, toss them on your system in the 15hz tune, and turn it to -10MV. Play each one and turn it up or down until you can audibly hear it. For me, 14hz is audible at -15MV, but there's a huge jump in volume when you go up to 16hz - I can hear that at -25MV. See if you can hear that stuff when you have time. I'm betting you can.

P.S. Sorry to hear the other thread got out of hand. That can happen over there, but I wouldn't let it distract you from all the good you did here. Thanks again!

What is this "-15MV" how would I measure that? Measured at the AVR pre-out?
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post #216 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

No, since your Cap Pros can't reproduce it, you can't feel it usually.

I'm not sure what the difference of a 18hz and 8hz would feel like though. I felt something during BHD.

during the regular demo session in comparison to the other subs? or during the 134+ dB demo session post blind audition?

I felt something during the 135-140db demo session alright. I don't know if it had anything to do with subsonics.

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post #217 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

What is this "-15MV" how would I measure that? Measured at the AVR pre-out?

I think he is referring to -15 dB on the Master Volume control.
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post #218 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

What is this "-15MV" how would I measure that? Measured at the AVR pre-out?

What desertdome said. If your system is calibrated to reference levels, -15 on the Master Volume of your receiver should be 15db less than reference.
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post #219 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

during the regular demo session in comparison to the other subs? or during the 134+ dB demo session post blind audition?

I felt something during the 135-140db demo session alright. I don't know if it had anything to do with subsonics.

Anything that I gave a 3 on for BHD was noticeable with the orbit shifters being the most noticeable. However, I don't listen at -4 (about -12.5-17.5 for me depending on how my mains are setup). I would still rather have Sub B with the amp shutting off than a bloated sub that can excel at the VLF. I thought your center channel (boom box looking thing ) sounded quiet for -10.

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post #220 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I think he is referring to -15 dB on the Master Volume control.

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Originally Posted by nube View Post

What desertdome said. If your system is calibrated to reference levels, -15 on the Master Volume of your receiver should be 15db less than reference.

I get you, thanks guys.
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post #221 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

I have an easy test for this you can do in a jiffy. Download some individual test tones from 14-19hz, toss them on your system in the 15hz tune, and turn it to -10MV. Play each one and turn it up or down until you can audibly hear it. For me, 14hz is audible at -15MV, but there's a huge jump in volume when you go up to 16hz - I can hear that at -25MV. See if you can hear that stuff when you have time. I'm betting you can.

That's exactly what I did a few weeks ago and it works. At about 100db, 16hz started to become slightly audible. I kept increasing the volume and my Cap-PB13 pairing managed to play a 16hz sine wave at about 110db max at my seats. I could feel it in my sinuses and it did result in a bit of a sinus headache after the testing session.
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post #222 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Not even when I walked up to the orbit shifter and stood touching it during the BHD clip post blind audition demo session.

I guess I don't feel or hear that subsonic stuff any more than the way a ported sub reproduces it. That's not to say a sealed sub isn't tactile, but to me not any more than my Cap pro pair.

That 'underwater' description people give for sealed sub subsonic material....I never felt it yesterday, and I never felt it ever. (granted I wasn't in the prime listening position the whole day) but I did get to engage in those seats up front on a couple occassions after those guys that didn't stay the whole day left. With the sealed subs I never had an ahaa moment of any sorts - even though I was straining to find it.

Maybe my subsonic sensing mechanisms are broken.

carp said he felt the underwater sensation that subsonics give him clearly on the sealed subs at both this meet and the last KC meet. I'm sensory deficient it appears.

I didn't get the sensation at this meet, but I think it was because I had ear plugs in. At the first meet my ears had that under water pressure feeling with the Submersive on a couple of scenes.
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post #223 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 04:36 PM
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Okay I was their for the first couple subs but ran out of time so I had to go before the big boys went on stage. I could only imagine how good they all sounded. It's funny that we compare these and say one is better than another, where as 99% of the people with home theater would be blown away by only one let alone having duals. That said I felt compailed to order another dual 13 Ed DIY for my theater beings everything seems to be better in pairs. maybe when done one of you guys that knows what they are doing would come over and help me dial it into my system. Thanks Archaea for letting me spectate, cost me $1200
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post #224 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bezlar View Post

Okay I was their for the first couple subs but ran out of time so I had to go before the big boys went on stage. I could only imagine how good they all sounded. It's funny that we compare these and say one is better than another, where as 99% of the people with home theater would be blown away by only one let alone having duals. That said I felt compailed to order another dual 13 Ed DIY for my theater beings everything seems to be better in pairs. maybe when done one of you guys that knows what they are doing would come over and help me dial it into my system. Thanks Archaea for letting me spectate, cost me $1200

haha...

You left right after the sub A audition right? I'm ordering a Crown XLS-5000 right now. I'll invite you over when it comes. I just got off the phone with Gorilla83 he says he gets a good 5-7dB out of that amp than he did from the EP4000's max. I got a good 1-2 dB more out of the EP4000 than I do out of the Inuke DSP 3000 amp (but I prefer the Inuke amp for it's DSP function). If I get another 5-7 dB out of the XLS-5000 amp then I'll be sitting at 130+ dB territory in my room, since I know the EP4000 was good for 125dB in my room, and the INuke is good for 123dB in my room. That outta be fun and put me somewhere in line with the orbit shifter. If your reading this - I'm not fixing that grout honey until I have some fun with the new amp...

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post #225 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 05:23 PM
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CHT thread is back online.
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post #226 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

haha...

You left right after the sub A audition right? I'm ordering a Crown XLS-5000 right now. I'll invite you over when it comes. I just got off the phone with Gorilla83 he says he gets a good 5-7dB out of that amp than he did from the EP4000's max. I got a good 1-2 dB more out of the EP4000 than I do out of the Inuke DSP 3000 amp (but I prefer the Inuke amp for it's DSP function). If I get another 5-7 dB out of the XLS-5000 amp then I'll be sitting at 130+ dB territory in my room, since I know the EP4000 was good for 125dB in my room, and the INuke is good for 123dB in my room. That outta be fun and put me somewhere in line with the orbit shifter. If your reading this - I'm not fixing that grout honey until I have some fun with the new amp...

Nice! I was hoping you would buy one of those. I'll be interested to see if you get the same massive increase that Gorilla is getting.

The OS were putting out 134 in the back of the room right? Did you ever get a reading at the seating positions? The bass (as you know) is so much louder up there.
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post #227 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

haha...

You left right after the sub A audition right? I'm ordering a Crown XLS-5000 right now. I'll invite you over when it comes. I just got off the phone with Gorilla83 he says he gets a good 5-7dB out of that amp than he did from the EP4000's max. I got a good 1-2 dB more out of the EP4000 than I do out of the Inuke DSP 3000 amp (but I prefer the Inuke amp for it's DSP function). If I get another 5-7 dB out of the XLS-5000 amp then I'll be sitting at 130+ dB territory in my room, since I know the EP4000 was good for 125dB in my room, and the INuke is good for 123dB in my room. That outta be fun and put me somewhere in line with the orbit shifter. If your reading this - I'm not fixing that grout honey until I have some fun with the new amp...

I'd reccomend using some type of Hpf too, heh. I really hope you like it like I do. The expectations are high now. I'd be surprised if you didn't gain a noticeable amount of output though - as to exactly how many db I can't say for sure.

Carp - I know you wanted me to test the ep4000 on the new circuit but I apologize I have not gotten to it yet.
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post #228 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 05:43 PM
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I'd reccomend using some type of Hpf too, heh. I really hope you like it like I do. The expectations are high now. I'd be surprised if you didn't gain a noticeable amount of output though - as to exactly how many db I can't say for sure.

Carp - I know you wanted me to test the ep4000 on the new circuit but I apologize I have not gotten to it yet.

No worries, I'm just excited at how much more power your getting. That has to be close to powered Caps as far as db's right?
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post #229 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 05:47 PM
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Ya heard the klipsch and thought they sounded good? Then the hsu's went on and sounded smooth on the ears. Then had to go when settin up cap pros.
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post #230 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:01 PM
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No worries, I'm just excited at how much more power your getting. That has to be close to a powered Cap as far as db's right?

Well, since the wife is out of town I took the opportunity to test out the EP once again just for you. The swap took me all of 2 minutes (got to love the speakons), I'd just been putting it off because normally I can't get away with max SPL sessions for more than 50 seconds with the wife home, lol.
With the same song in the same listening position, I was able to muster ~119db continuous with the EP and was able to squeak out a few peaks of ~122db before the clip lights started to glow. Maybe I did gain a little something from the dedicated line? I'm also not running through the power conditioner as I was before. As you saw from my video, the Crown was able to hold 125+ continuous and peaks were off the meter at times. After doing the A-B comparison between the two amps I have to say (subjectively of course) that the Crown definitely has a tighter sound which I prefer as well. Like I said before I can't imagine really needing a whole lot more output than something like this setup. When I spoke with Archaea earlier on the phone I mentioned my next experiment will be with a single Cap. I'm going to wire it for 8 ohm, corner load it, and run the crown in bridged mode. My bets are that the SPL will be similar to my duals. Besides, my second sub probably isn't providing a ton of room gain in it's current location anyway. Any takers?
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post #231 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:10 PM
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What are the specs rated for that crown amp? When does it rolloff? I thought crowns starting rolling off early? I guess for caps it does not matter and becomes a built in filter.
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post #232 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Well, since the wife is out of town I took the opportunity to test out the EP once again just for you. The swap took me all of 2 minutes (got to love the speakons), I'd just been putting it off because normally I can't get away with max SPL sessions for more than 50 seconds with the wife home, lol.
With the same song in the same listening position, I was able to muster ~119db continuous with the EP and was able to squeak out a few peaks of ~122db before the clip lights started to glow. Maybe I did gain a little something from the dedicated line? I'm also not running through the power conditioner as I was before. As you saw from my video, the Crown was able to hold 125+ continuous and peaks were off the meter at times. After doing the A-B comparison between the two amps I have to say (subjectively of course) that the Crown definitely has a tighter sound which I prefer as well. Like I said before I can't imagine really needing a whole lot more output than something like this setup. When I spoke with Archaea earlier on the phone I mentioned my next experiment will be with a single Cap. I'm going to wire it for 8 ohm, corner load it, and run the crown in bridged mode. My bets are that the SPL will be similar to my duals. Besides, my second sub probably isn't providing a ton of room gain in it's current location anyway. Any takers?

Cool, thanks for doing that! So it's 119 continuous vs. 125 continuous. That's an impressive difference. More than impressive really, it's like adding 2 more passive/behringer driven Caps stacked on top of your current Caps. Wow.

That amp wouldn't work to well with a 15A shared with a bunch of other crap line though I imagine.
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post #233 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Well, since the wife is out of town I took the opportunity to test out the EP once again just for you. The swap took me all of 2 minutes (got to love the speakons), I'd just been putting it off because normally I can't get away with max SPL sessions for more than 50 seconds with the wife home, lol.
With the same song in the same listening position, I was able to muster ~119db continuous with the EP and was able to squeak out a few peaks of ~122db before the clip lights started to glow. Maybe I did gain a little something from the dedicated line? I'm also not running through the power conditioner as I was before. As you saw from my video, the Crown was able to hold 125+ continuous and peaks were off the meter at times. After doing the A-B comparison between the two amps I have to say (subjectively of course) that the Crown definitely has a tighter sound which I prefer as well. Like I said before I can't imagine really needing a whole lot more output than something like this setup. When I spoke with Archaea earlier on the phone I mentioned my next experiment will be with a single Cap. I'm going to wire it for 8 ohm, corner load it, and run the crown in bridged mode. My bets are that the SPL will be similar to my duals. Besides, my second sub probably isn't providing a ton of room gain in it's current location anyway. Any takers?

Wait - I got distracted and didn't order the crown yet....so now are we talking 3dB for $533 + $200 minidsp? hmmmm... That's not as enticing... If you weren't tripping your 15 amp breaker I'm surprised it was limiting you. I guess I don't know the engineering behind it.

oopp --

edit - carp beat me to it and read it way different than me... I read it to mean you used to get 118dB with low 120 peaks, now you are getting 122dB with the clip lights starting to flash on the new power line. With the 125dB are the crown clip lights starting to flash? Exactly how much are we talking - no by memory stuff! We're talking $700 dollars! :P For $700 I want specifics! I'd be sorely dissapointed if I get the crown and it's loud and heavy and only a dB or two louder than the EP4000 overall. I don't care much about dB or two which is why I'm using my Inuke amp (123dB max clean in my room) over my EP4000 amp (125dB max clean in my room)

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post #234 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:18 PM
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Wait - I got distracted and didn't order the crown yet....so now are we talking 3dB for $533 + $200 minidsp? hmmmm... That's not as enticing... If you weren't tripping your 15 amp breaker I'm surprised it was limiting you. I guess I don't know the engineering behind it.

3 dB's does not seem much but that is twice the power, that should be worth it to a bass head!
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post #235 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:25 PM
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What are the specs rated for that crown amp? When does it rolloff? I thought crowns starting rolling off early? I guess for caps it does not matter and becomes a built in filter.

I'm running it in 2 ohm stereo and it's rated at 2500/channel in that mode. I have no clue when it rolls off but like you said I'm not playing it much below 20hz with usable output anyway. To be honest I doubt it's able to output both channels driven with that power without a regulated power supply. But it still sounds good to me.

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Cool, thanks for doing that! So it's 119 continuous vs. 125 continuous. That's an impressive difference. More than impressive really, it's like adding 2 more passive/behringer driven Caps stacked on top of your current Caps. Wow.

That amp wouldn't work to well with a 15A shared with a bunch of other crap line though I imagine.

Np - After playing them back to back I do like the sound of the Crown better - difference in output aside. Just my opinion of course though. I can't say with certainly that everyone will see the same gains but I can tell you so far the amp seems to be working well for my situation.

As for the circuit - I've tripped the breaker a couple of times with the EP on the 15A line so I can almost guarantee you would be pretty limited running the Crown on the 15 line. You would also need an adapter as it has a NEMA-20 plug on it. The power cord looks badA!

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Wait - I got distracted and didn't order the crown yet....so now are we talking 3dB for $533 + $200 minidsp? hmmmm... That's not as enticing... If you weren't tripping your 15 amp breaker I'm surprised it was limiting you. I guess I don't know the engineering behind it.

oopp --

edit - carp beat me to it and read it way different than me... I read it to mean you used to get 118dB with low 120 peaks, now you are getting 122dB with the clip lights starting to flash. With teh 125dB are teh crown clip lights starting to flash? Exactly how much are we talking - no by memory stuff! We're talking $700 dollars! :P I want specifics!

No clip lights on the crown just yet other than when I got real aggressive with the demo disc on the flight crash scene. That $hit was intense and caused the Caps to bottom for the first time, heh - hence my recommendation for a HPF. I agree 700 dollars isn't chump change. And if you're hitting 125+ clean already in your room there technically isn't a 'need' to upgrade.

By no means are my max SPL tests scientific - so take them for what you will. Just some dude bashing his eardrums with a couple amps, subs, and an SPL meter.
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post #236 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:26 PM
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What am I missing. 119 continuous and 122 peaks vs 125 continuous and off the meter peaks.

That looks like more than a 3db increase right?

Wow, you bottomed them!! That says a lot right there.
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post #237 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:26 PM
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But...have you done it...on weed? Just kidding.

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post #238 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

What am I missing. 119 continuous and 122 peaks vs 125 continuous and off the meter peaks.

That looks like more than a 3db increase right?

Wow, you bottomed them!! That says a lot right there.

You got it carp. The peaks from the EP are less than the average/continuous power from the Crown, as measured from the same song. As far as bottoming them, not sure what went on there but it could be related to my settings? I have it running pretty hot and there is no limiter on this thing, heh.

Johnathan - I went into this purchase knowing very little about this amp and had no clue if it would be any different/worse than the EP. I did know that if I didn't like it could be sold and much of the $$$ recovered selling it like-new on Craigs or similar. Alternatively you could hold off for the Peavey IPR this summer. Like we both discussed 120+DB anything is already overkill. At this point it's purely experimentation. Above anything else I don't want you to be disappointed if it's not what you expected - every setup is different and results could very well vary. You could always come out to our GTG and demo this thing for yourself too.
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post #239 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:43 PM
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I'm running it in 2 ohm stereo and it's rated at 2500/channel in that mode. I have no clue when it rolls off but like you said I'm not playing it much below 20hz with usable output anyway. To be honest I doubt it's able to output both channels driven with that power without a regulated power supply. But it still sounds good to me.



Np - After playing them back to back I do like the sound of the Crown better - difference in output aside. Just my opinion of course though. I can't say with certainly that everyone will see the same gains but I can tell you so far the amp seems to be working well for my situation.

As for the circuit - I've tripped the breaker a couple of times with the EP on the 15A line so I can almost guarantee you would be pretty limited running the Crown on the 15 line. You would also need an adapter as it has a NEMA-20 plug on it. The power cord looks badA!



No clip lights on the crown just yet other than when I got real aggressive with the demo disc on the flight crash scene. That $hit was intense and caused the Caps to bottom for the first time, heh - hence my recommendation for a HPF. I agree 700 dollars isn't chump change. And if you're hitting 125+ clean already in your room there technically isn't a 'need' to upgrade.

By no means are my max SPL tests scientific - so take them for what you will. Just some dude bashing his eardrums with a couple amps, subs, and an SPL meter.

Beyond just the increased peak spl, won't the Crown also deliver higher, cleaner spl at specific frequencies? I would expect the low stuff to see significant improvement, i.e. lower distortion.

That's all I ever hear anyone talk about with more powerful amps -- "yeah it's another 'x' number of watts but that only equates to 3 db." To me it seems like the benefit would be much more than simply 125db peaks vs. 122. Frankly, once I've reached a comfortable max point (which the iNuke far exceeds) I couldn't care less about more max spl. I want more extension (or greater output in the lowest octave in the case of a ported sub) and lower distortion.

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post #240 of 848 Old 01-17-2012, 06:43 PM
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Archaea and company...absolutely monumental job in putting this together! What a great and informative read! Looking forward for someone to make sense of the measured data versus subjective comments to determine if there's any correlation between SPL, FR, and preference for this group! At first glance, it's as clear as mud...

One question I have: when you're posting the highest SPL value for each sub as recorded by Omnimic, is that the 'Peak' value or 'Max' value for Omnimic?

It's my understanding that the 'Max' value should be used when discussing sound pressure level as it more closely indicates what we 'hear'. Peak value is not time-weighted and just reflects the highest value of the waveform. In my own tests with OM, Peak and Max can differ by a large margin (~8db).
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