Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Archaea and company...absolutely monumental job in putting this together! What a great and informative read! Looking forward for someone to make sense of the measured data versus subjective comments to determine if there's any correlation between SPL, FR, and preference for this group! At first glance, it's as clear as mud...

I found one correlation. Those from Nebraska had similar thoughts and preferences for each setup.

I will try to make up the seating chart. I forgot a ton of names and who sat where so please message me and I can correct it or have Archaea put it on the first page. Maybe he already did.

First Row - Blaine (he left towards midway through, did not score), Kwarny, HuskerOmaha, stitch1, Wulf, Wleland

Back Row - Scott (did not score), Buckman, desertdome, jedimastergrant, carp,

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Old 01-17-2012, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Archaea and company...absolutely monumental job in putting this together! What a great and informative read! Looking forward for someone to make sense of the measured data versus subjective comments to determine if there's any correlation between SPL, FR, and preference for this group! At first glance, it's as clear as mud...

One question I have: when you're posting the highest SPL value for each sub as recorded by Omnimic, is that the 'Peak' value or 'Max' value for Omnimic?

It's my understanding that the 'Max' value should be used when discussing sound pressure level as it more closely indicates what we 'hear'. Peak value is not time-weighted and just reflects the highest value of the waveform. In my own tests with OM, Peak and Max can differ by a large margin (~8db).

I only recorded peak value (the higher number)...I don't have the data for max value. I didn't know the difference. sorry man.

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Old 01-17-2012, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by _Avarice_ View Post

Beyond just the increased peak spl, won't the Crown also deliver higher, cleaner spl at specific frequencies? I would expect the low stuff to see significant improvement, i.e. lower distortion.

That's all I ever hear anyone talk about with more powerful amps -- "yeah it's another 'x' number of watts but that only equates to 3 db." To me it seems like the benefit would be much more than simply 125db peaks vs. 122. Frankly, once I've reached a comfortable max point (which the iNuke far exceeds) I couldn't care less about more max spl. I want more extension (or greater output in the lowest octave in the case of a ported sub) and lower distortion.

For sealed setup when you get an amp like a lab gruppen clone you get
1) much less roll off at lower frequencies (think 15hz and below)
2) a lot more wattage to use a low shelf filter and basically make your sub flat to 10hz at well above reference levels

Getting something a lab gruppen clone for ported subs makes little sense to me, ported subs are designed to do a lot with a little power above tuning, and below tuning it doesnt matter how much clean power you throw at it, the driver cant handle it and will be subject to over excursion
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

I found one correlation. Those from Nebraska had similar thoughts and preferences for each setup.

I will try to make up the seating chart. I forgot a ton of names and who sat where so please message me and I can correct it or have Archaea put it on the first page. Maybe he already did.

First Row - Blaine, Kwarny, HuskerOmaha, Wulf or Stich, Wulf or Stich, Wleland

Back Row - , Buckman (Karl I believe) , desertdome, carp, not sure if there were anymore (oh Jedi sat somewhere)

I haven't made a seating chart because I don't know myself who sat where. I'd like to. Maybe we can put it together. I have some pictures of the meet in this Album that I will update in the first post at some point. Unfortunately hiding the basement running all the test sweeps and stuff I only met and recall names to faces for about half to 3/4 of the guys.

http://photobucket.com/2012KCBlindSubMeet

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Old 01-17-2012, 08:32 PM
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Hmmmm not sure which is more interesting... the growth in this thread or the shrinkage in a similar thread in another forum... anyway this has become a must follow piece of work, although after showing my wife the pictures of grout destruction, the chances of me getting one of the big boys shrank dramatically
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

I found one correlation. Those from Nebraska had similar thoughts and preferences for each setup.

I will try to make up the seating chart. I forgot a ton of names and who sat where so please message me and I can correct it or have Archaea put it on the first page. Maybe he already did.

First Row - Blaine, Kwarny, HuskerOmaha, Wulf or stitch1, Wulf or stitch1, Wleland

Back Row - , Buckman (Karl I believe) , desertdome, jedimastergrant carp,

Jedi sat next to me to my left, I was on the far right. Mark sat next to me at times but other than that the chair was empty.
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LS1 Sounds View Post

CHT thread is back online.

Apparently with some (at least one) post deleted. A very good post by Archaea stating his standpoint on the issue.

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Old 01-17-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Good job guys...Sounds like a good and humbling time was had by all. I'm curious who had the best accuracy at matching the subs? Buckaman?

I think you are correct....

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Old 01-17-2012, 09:15 PM
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http://i42.tinypic.com/23hwryg.jpg

Does anyone want to have a blinded GTG like Archaea's, but use measurement setups like the Omaha GTG, somewhere in the Midwest?
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

http://i42.tinypic.com/23hwryg.jpg

Does anyone want to have a blinded GTG like Archaea's, but use measurement setups like the Omaha GTG, somewhere in the Midwest?

I'm up for one. I bet I can even get my highschool's auditorium so a couple thousand can vote, or maybe a decent room but smaller, or even my local cinema to allow us to use the space. You about ready to start an interest thread?

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Old 01-17-2012, 09:31 PM
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Let's let the dust settle from the most recent one first, lol.

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Old 01-17-2012, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

http://i42.tinypic.com/23hwryg.jpg

Does anyone want to have a blinded GTG like Archaea's, but use measurement setups like the Omaha GTG, somewhere in the Midwest?

-- with that link you may have just sealed your fate.

If you are blind and I can use a different amp I'll travel anywhere. I think I'd like another shot at swaying your preference for movies too.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Apparently with some (at least one) post deleted. A very good post by Archaea stating his standpoint on the issue.

Thread shutting down, disparaging multiple owners of said company's products, throwing people under the bus, nasty (tyrannical) and expletive-laden PM's, multiple posts deleted, but all in the quest for "an honest, open conversation about what transpired."

Certainly, if this is all happening "because I want the truth," I wonder what would happen if people really were trying to sabotage the GTG, throw the results, and harm products by intentionally misusing them.
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:44 PM
 
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Great job on the GTG. A lot of work, but it must have been fun. Too bad people can't concentrate on the fun aspect, right? I'm not surprised by the results, or the reactions...
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

http://i42.tinypic.com/23hwryg.jpg

This post by Archaea was deleted too...


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Old 01-17-2012, 09:47 PM
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One really great result of this thread is that my PM box is overflowing and I can't keep up with deleting them to stay under the 150 limit, so I finally shelled out the $25 to join AVS. Literally just for the increased PM mailbox size...I'm such a loser! But, I couldn't think of a better A/V forum to support.
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizarro_Stormy View Post

This post by Archaea was deleted too...


That's the post I was referring to. A very good post.

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Old 01-17-2012, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Apparently with some (at least one) post deleted. A very good post by Archaea stating his standpoint on the issue.

Interesting observation! Archaea's post was there when I caught up on the thread earlier, shortly after it came back online. I just went back and looked again, and can't find it now. I can't remember Archaea's exact words, but I also thought it was a good post containing nothing controversial.

I am currently considering dual CHT 18.1 subs (and also DIY) for my large, open floor plan. The results from this thread haven't really dissuaded me from CHT, since I don't think the setup was correct. If these subs can really be bottomed out with a little over 300 watts, people would have been screaming about them for many months. I suspect that running them in 8 Ω stereo mode from an iNuke 3000 severely underpowered them and grossly overtaxed the amp during peaks, resulting in hard clipping and the strange sounds that were heard.

With that said, the deleted posts from the CHT forum *are* a concern for me.
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizarro_stormy View Post

this post by archaea was deleted too...


Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

that's the post i was referring to. A very good post.

+1, this is the same post I was referring to above.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

That's the post I was referring to. A very good post.

Yep...

I was a bit ticked when I saw it had suddenly disintegrated into the digital ether...

I was surfing the thread in multiple tabs though... for just that reason...

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Old 01-17-2012, 10:08 PM
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I wish I could read that screen shot on my phone. It'sa sized super small. Anyone else got a link to the post?
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

I'm up for one. I bet I can even get my highschool's auditorium so a couple thousand can vote, or maybe a decent room but smaller, or even my local cinema to allow us to use the space. You about ready to start an interest thread?



I LOVE the local cinema rental idea...

LOVE IT
LOVE IT
LOVE IT

How cool would that be? Especially with the biggest boy subs in pairs (or more).

Jeff! Mark! Alex! How can we make this happen? I would fly anywhere in the US to be a part of that!

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Old 01-17-2012, 10:14 PM
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You guys are turbos.

But that is probably a better idea...I don't want dual OS or other subs in my room going up to 140 dbs and breaking stuff.

I don't have as forgiving as a wife that apparently Archaea has.

EDIT: And the thread goes byebye again.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizarro_Stormy View Post

This post by Archaea was deleted too...


Quote:
Originally Posted by LS1 Sounds View Post

Interesting observation! Archaea's post was there when I caught up on the thread earlier, shortly after it came back online. I just went back and looked again, and can't find it now. I can't remember Archaea's exact words, but I also thought it was a good post containing nothing controversial.

I am currently considering dual CHT 18.1 subs (and also DIY) for my large, open floor plan. The results from this thread haven't really dissuaded me from CHT, since I don't think the setup was correct. If these subs can really be bottomed out with a little over 300 watts, people would have been screaming about them for many months. I suspect that running them in 8 Ω stereo mode from an iNuke 3000 severely underpowered them and grossly overtaxed the amp during peaks, resulting in hard clipping and the strange sounds that were heard.

With that said, the deleted posts from the CHT forum *are* a concern for me.

CHT's owner continues to shoot himself in the foot...

Why were Archaea's posts deleted? There's nothing wrong with them...Archaeas purpose is to share information, not to point fingers.

I also find his comments about Tesseract disturbing. I have always viewed Tesseract as quite knowledgeable in the subwoofer area, and Craigsub posts:

"For the record, the sub owner is Tesseract. He is a friend, but is also the first person to tell you he is no expert in subwoofer set up, especially in a home theater setting, as he runs nothing but two channel." He knocks the credibility of a person of whom is a volunteer moderator of the CHT forum as well as a CHT ambassador? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you???

I've often looked into CHT's products as a possible upgrade, but continue to pass based on this behavior. If I don't feel I can trust the owner, how can I trust their products?
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:38 PM
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I for one am in the middle of considering an upgrade and most subs in the blind shootout have been considered by me....I skipped over to the CHT Thread and the forum messages are being edited, deleted and now the thread is just gone. Its like the Chinese Government censoring the media.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:43 PM
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

You guys are turbos.

But that is probably a better idea...I don't want dual OS or other subs in my room going up to 140 dbs and breaking stuff.

I don't have as forgiving as a wife that apparently Archaea has.

EDIT: And the thread goes byebye again.

Turbos with SubDudes?

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Old 01-17-2012, 10:46 PM
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I know the stuff going on is interesting and intriguing to say the least, but lets try and keep discussing the GTG and what we can take from and learn from for further GTG.

I'd like to see what people thought of the use of Audyssey vs the manual EQ. What do the readers of this think? Do you have the ability to EQ manually with your own mic? Or do you like the fact a GTG used Audyssey, which most owners have or an equal type of EQ?

Obviously, the people that are into measurements and the hardcore hobbyists mostly have their own measuring equipment....probably many purchasing these subs. I just wanted to get a feel for what the "public" thought.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:52 PM
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Shot in the foot? At this point I would say blasted completely off.....

Debate it....talk about it....etc....

The problem comes when you have a potential buyer (such as myself) seeing deletions, edits, mud-slinging, etc. Without saying names I cannot see my money going to companies that conduct in this fashion....even if they provide a great product such as this company does.

Someone prove me wrong....(debate it) but don't delete my post or start the name calling

HuskerOmaha: To get back on track....I much prefer manual eq. I find that Audyssey boosts the low end much to far on most of my setups. When you dial up to reference level....the subs just cant seem to keep up with that level of boosting and eq. Most folks dont have the ability to do a manual...but they also dont know or think about what Audyssey does.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys - I finally got around to checking up on something that I suspected earlier.

another fatality due to the orbit shifters. I bought a bluray-RW drive to make the clips for the meet. The drive failed during the meet. I used it fine the day of the meet to recopy the blackhawk down clip back off. When Jeff was leaving I offered to burn him the clips and it woudn't work. He offered to share some tracks a friend had made for him on a cd. I tried to copy them over it wouldn't work - it said it was going to take 1.5 hours and was buring a cd at .2x. I thought of it tonight and tried to throw a bluray in the drive. The scratchless scuba steve drive said it was unreadable. It literally worked fine immediately before the meet and stopped working sometime during the meet. The PC is in the very far back corner and likely gets all that boundary/corner gain. At any rate --- dun dun dun - and another one bites the dust! I'm just SUPER happy it didn't destroy my hard-drives! I didn't even consider that!!! hope my optical drives in my xbox and dvd player are okay! The PS3 one still works fine!

grout, 2lb wood camel ornaments, pictures, and now bluray drives are alll likely casualties if you opt to buy a orbit shifters... YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED...

Megan if you are reading this - relax...I'll take you out to dinner with you get back. I bought the bluray drive with my fun money - so no worries babe!

Movie theater rental for the next one is indeed wise... I wonder how many other little casualties I'll find over the coming days/weeks.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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