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post #451 of 535 Old 07-29-2013, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniHT View Post

Logic, as I understand it, you are correct in that when you calibrate your system everything is set to 75db. However as you approach "reference" at the MLP it can call for as much as 105db from your mains/surround and as much as 115db from your sub/subs at certain times. Although you have an excellent looking graph, showing you're darn flat to 5hz or so, as you approach reference you could run into compression, driver and amp limitations ect. if you don't have enough headroom. If you wanted to see if your sub/subs can truly play reference at 5hz, run a 115db sweep and see if your graph shows any of these anomalies. I believe what the above posters were saying was that it is extremely difficult to have a single sub, even the S2, be flat to well into the single digits without running into problems at reference. I don't mean to step on any ones toes, that is just how I understand it. BTW, that really is a nice looking graph, I hope mine looks half as good as yours when I'm all set up.

Interesting. I am out of country on a business trip this week so I will conduct this experiment upon my return and post my findings.
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post #452 of 535 Old 07-29-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by logicators View Post

Interesting. I am out of country on a business trip this week so I will conduct this experiment upon my return and post my findings.

Nice! I will be looking forward to that sweep! I often wonder why they aren't done higher. Sure a sub can play flat to 5hz at 85db. But 115 db is a whole different level. But I believe you have mentioned you have a small room and could get some nice room gain! Looking forward to that grap!

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post #453 of 535 Old 07-29-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by logicators View Post

Interesting. I am out of country on a business trip this week so I will conduct this experiment upon my return and post my findings.

When you do, please do not use smoothing on the graphs. 1/8th smoothing hides a LOT of sharp peaks and valleys.


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post #454 of 535 Old 07-29-2013, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

When you do, please do not use smoothing on the graphs. 1/8th smoothing hides a LOT of sharp peaks and valleys.

Yes, raw and true!

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post #455 of 535 Old 07-29-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

When you do, please do not use smoothing on the graphs. 1/8th smoothing hides a LOT of sharp peaks and valleys.
I know this has been discussed before...I've heard we hear at 1/6 of an Octave. If that's true, what is the benefit of the additional resolution?


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post #456 of 535 Old 07-29-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I know this has been discussed before...I've heard we hear at 1/6 of an Octave. If that's true, what is the benefit of the additional resolution?
If that's the case, why does Ricci test with no smoothing? Because, for comparison's sake (the only point of posting your own response graph, imo), you want to see everything. For instance, the 1/8th octave smoothed graph posted was +/- 6dB. Hardly flat. I suspect it's actually much more exaggerated with no smoothing, and I'd like to see it.

Edit: here's an audioholics article that contains the exact why's. I suggest reading all of it, but, to summarize: higher resolution is always better, as it's more revealing. This is important not just for evaluation, it's critical for equalization.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/audio-measurements


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post #457 of 535 Old 07-29-2013, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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No smoothing, Nube has solid points.

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post #458 of 535 Old 07-30-2013, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

No smoothing, Nube has solid points.

All right, everyone seems to hate smoothing here smile.gif

Here is a version of the same graph without smoothing (the original graph used 1/6).

Note that this is a post-audyssey graph and represents only one of the channels (left) crossed at 60Hz (i.e., ignore FR above 60 Hz because that's not covered by the sub).
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post #459 of 535 Old 07-30-2013, 01:57 AM
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And here is a pre-audyssey graph of the LFE channel with no-smoothing. My room is untreated.

Upon my return I will try to produce LFE-only graphs by increasing the volume in 5-db increments (the current measurements were taken with AVR at 0 db which was already too much for me). I will use ear plugs but I am not sure if I will hit S2 limits before hitting mine eek.gif


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post #460 of 535 Old 07-30-2013, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

If that's the case, why does Ricci test with no smoothing? Because, for comparison's sake (the only point of posting your own response graph, imo), you want to see everything. For instance, the 1/8th octave smoothed graph posted was +/- 6dB. Hardly flat. I suspect it's actually much more exaggerated with no smoothing, and I'd like to see it.

Edit: here's an audioholics article that contains the exact why's. I suggest reading all of it, but, to summarize: higher resolution is always better, as it's more revealing. This is important not just for evaluation, it's critical for equalization.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/audio-measurements
Thanks for the link nube.

I do understand your points and the articles points about resolution. When comparing different speakers/subs, you need the best resolution possible, otherwise it could be hiding some sins of the speaker/sub design. That makes perfect sense.

However, when we listen in our own rooms, will the resulting curves from eq'ing at 1/6 octave to obtain a flat FR vs eq'ing with no smoothing sound any different? The article mentions that over mid and high frequency range, the resolution is important as the resulting combination of frequencies in that range add a 'roughness' that can be attributable to the sound and timber of a loudspeaker. In this case, Eq'ing with less resolution could result in a different sound and timber vs eq'ing with a higher resolution. At 1/3 octave, the two responses would look the same, but potentially sound differennt.

But does this apply to low (sub) frequencies as well? I couldn't specifically find it in the article (I apologize if I've overlooked it).

Personally, I eq'd with the raw resolution. I did it just for the same reasons as mentioned above. In my case, I did have some nasty dips that were hidden when I applied smoothing. It was a pain in the a** to remove the dips. During my many hours of tweaking, I would switch back and forth from smoothing to no smoothing. With smoothing on, I could have saved many hours by adjusting the curve from that perspective...but it would eat away at me knowing that I was hiding a dip and/or peak; thus I eq'd with no smoothing in the end.

For example, let's assume we have 2 identical rooms with 2 identical subs placed in the same location in each room. We tweak the response of sub A with 1/6 octave resolution to get a ruler flat response. However, when we change to no smoothing for sub A, it reveals big peak at 45hz and a big dip at 50hz. When we tweak the response of subB we do it from a no smoothing perspective and are able to get it ruler flat. So subB is ruler flat at 1/6 octave and with no smoothing.

At 1/6 octave subA and subB have the same frequency responses, but with no smoothing they are different. Will we be able to hear the difference between the two responses?


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post #461 of 535 Old 07-30-2013, 03:27 PM
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logicators, thanks for the update. I have a few quick points of note:

First, your 2nd graph, the one you say is no-eq, no-smoothing, has a different label (and avg dB rating) listed than the original one you posted, so it looks like a different measurement. It may be nitpicking, but since you're going back to these saved measurements to generate the graphs, go back to the original measurement from the first 1/8th smoothed graph and just change it to no smoothing.

Second, instead of screenshotting the entire program, you know that the "capture" button near the top left corner there will create JPG or PNG files automatically that show your labels and how much smoothing is applied. That'll make it much easier on you by saving some time. wink.gif

Third, your last no-eq, no-smoothing graph shows a response from "P2," which I assume is position 2. Is this different from your main listening position (MLP) as labeled on that same graph?

Lastly, I see that the first graph you posted is a full-range measurement, with all speakers on, but you singled out the 5-80Hz range. If that's indeed the case, I would definitely be worried about your major suckout centered at 65Hz. When measuring full-range in REW, a suckout there means a major room mode (about 20dB down from a large portion of the rest of the bass region in your graph), and at a place in the spectrum where there is a fair amount of content that you don't want to miss. I'd reconsider your XO and see if raising it higher and/or adjusting phase doesn't eliminate or at least ameliorate it.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

dominguez1,

I get what you're asking about WRT how finely grained we hear, and I don't know. I can't find any definitive answers to the question, although I may not know what to search for.

As regards your other comments about the comparison of systems with EQ performed from different smoothed starting perspectives, I would definitely think you can hear the difference, but it depends on your definition of "ruler flat." Do you mean +/- 3dB, or +/- 5dB? I think that makes a huge difference, especially since smoothing can hide a wider & deeper dip if your definition of flat is relaxed.

It also matters where the peaks/nulls are located. The range of 30 - 50Hz, for instance, has a TON of very high amplitude content in almost all bass movies. 60-80Hz? Not so much. I'm guessing that if you have a deep, 1/6th octave null somewhere in 30-50Hz range, you're gonna notice it much more than a similar null in 60-80Hz.

By the same token, a major peak in the higher range will definitely be noticed as a pronounced, boomy sound (which I've experienced, for sure). Both of those might look like 5dB swings in a heavily smoothed graph, when in reality they might be 10 or 12 decibels. (Hope my math isn't wrong here, I didn't do the log calculations!)


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post #462 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 12:00 AM
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Hi Nube,

Answers inline:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

logicators, thanks for the update. I have a few quick points of note:

First, your 2nd graph, the one you say is no-eq, no-smoothing, has a different label (and avg dB rating) listed than the original one you posted, so it looks like a different measurement. It may be nitpicking, but since you're going back to these saved measurements to generate the graphs, go back to the original measurement from the first 1/8th smoothed graph and just change it to no smoothing.

The second graph is with audyssey turned off (i.e., no eq). It certainly changes the average db rating as audyssey is no longer applying any correction. It's a different measurement but was taken without changing any other params (except turning audyssey off) shortly after the first one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Second, instead of screenshotting the entire program, you know that the "capture" button near the top left corner there will create JPG or PNG files automatically that show your labels and how much smoothing is applied. That'll make it much easier on you by saving some time. wink.gif

Thanks for the tip. I will use it in my next round of measurements smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Third, your last no-eq, no-smoothing graph shows a response from "P2," which I assume is position 2. Is this different from your main listening position (MLP) as labeled on that same graph?

You have sharp eyes smile.gif

P2 is actually the current sub position and remained constant in all three graphs I have posted. The sub was a bit closer to the wall in the past I was able to achieve small FR improvements by moving it away.
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

Lastly, I see that the first graph you posted is a full-range measurement, with all speakers on, but you singled out the 5-80Hz range. If that's indeed the case, I would definitely be worried about your major suckout centered at 65Hz. When measuring full-range in REW, a suckout there means a major room mode (about 20dB down from a large portion of the rest of the bass region in your graph), and at a place in the spectrum where there is a fair amount of content that you don't want to miss. I'd reconsider your XO and see if raising it higher and/or adjusting phase doesn't eliminate or at least ameliorate it.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

It's certainly full range, but not all speakers. As I have mentioned earlier it's left channel / left speaker only crossed at 60 Hz (I am using newer REW with a USB mic which allows sending a full range signal to any single channel). Multiple of my front speakers are nevertheless suffering from a null in the range you mentioned and I tried resolving it by making small changes in speaker placement with no luck. Higher XO doesn't seem to help either because the FR of the LFE channel also drops in that range (as you can see in the 3rd graph). I can't use treatments because the setup is in my living room and the wife barely accepted the presence of big black noisy boxes in there smile.gif

I am hoping to move to a bigger place in near future and should have more flexibility then.
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post #463 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by logicators View Post

Hi Nube,

Answers inline:
The second graph is with audyssey turned off (i.e., no eq). It certainly changes the average db rating as audyssey is no longer applying any correction. It's a different measurement but was taken without changing any other params (except turning audyssey off) shortly after the first one.

Hey, thanks for the replies. As to the above quote, I was speaking about the 2nd graph you posted, overall. This one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicators View Post

All right, everyone seems to hate smoothing here smile.gif

Here is a version of the same graph without smoothing (the original graph used 1/6).

Note that this is a post-audyssey graph and represents only one of the channels (left) crossed at 60Hz (i.e., ignore FR above 60 Hz because that's not covered by the sub).

It "has a different label (and avg dB rating) listed than the original one you posted, so it looks like a different measurement. It may be nitpicking, but since you're going back to these saved measurements to generate the graphs, go back to the original measurement from the first 1/8th smoothed graph and just change it to no smoothing." All the data from the measurement should still be contained in your REW save files, so it shouldn't be too arduous to do. smile.gif

Also, when I saw this, I thought you meant the left subwoofer channel out of a .2 system. I didn't realize you were talking about one of your mains + your sub(s), but it makes sense now!

Sorry for the confusion. And the big null. At least your system likely won't sound boomy! wink.gif


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post #464 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 06:54 AM
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Greetings AVS members. While I am a new member to AVS, I have been following you guys for years. Most of my system is a result of learning from everyone who has posted on the forum. So thank you all for your contributions. Over the last several months I have been on a knowledge quest for a new sub. After reading everything I could find and educating myself to some degree, I have pulled the trigger and ordered an S2 from Jeff.
Here is my current system:
Processor: Integra 80.3
Amplifiers: 2- Emotiva XPA-5’s (200w @8 ohms/300w @4 ohms)
Front Mains: Monitor Audio GS60’s (4ohm)
Front Wides: Def. Tech. Mythos XTR-60’s
Center: Def. Tech. Mythos XTR-50
Rears: Monitor Audio GSFX
Sides: Monitor Audio RSFX
(2)Subs: Def. Tech. Super Cube I and Def. Tech. Super Cube 6000

If i understand correctly, the S2 does not come with any liturature so I wanted to get some thoughts on how I need to set up and calibrate my system.
Here are my challenges: (hopefully the images come thru)
My den is 16wx18d with 9ft ceiling but is an open floor plan.


Do to the agreement terms of the WAF, I am going to have to locate the S2 behind the sofa. Will this work? Should I keep my 2 Super Cubes in the setup to help minimize localization? Other than running MultEQ XT32, are there any other things I should do or consider? I am not an expert by any means on any of this but am willing to listen and learn from your responses. My primary use is HT but I also enjoy listening to music. Will I need to have 2 separate settings for my subs? I'll shut up now and thanks for helping to educate me and many others over the years.
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post #465 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Hey, thanks for the replies. As to the above quote, I was speaking about the 2nd graph you posted, overall. This one:
It "has a different label (and avg dB rating) listed than the original one you posted, so it looks like a different measurement. It may be nitpicking, but since you're going back to these saved measurements to generate the graphs, go back to the original measurement from the first 1/8th smoothed graph and just change it to no smoothing." All the data from the measurement should still be contained in your REW save files, so it shouldn't be too arduous to do. smile.gif

Also, when I saw this, I thought you meant the left subwoofer channel out of a .2 system. I didn't realize you were talking about one of your mains + your sub(s), but it makes sense now!

Sorry for the confusion. And the big null. At least your system likely won't sound boomy! wink.gif

Well, they are both labeled L_AUD_SUB_60_Hz but I noticed differences in frequency range reported etc.

Here are newly generated with and without smoothing graphs:

With smoothing:



No smoothing:

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post #466 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 07:50 AM
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Logicators
Sorry, I'm new at this. Hope I didn't post in the wrong spot and interrupt a conversation. I apologize if i did. Saw this was originally about the captivator sealed subs and went with it. Let me know if i need to post somewhere else.
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Logicators
Sorry, I'm new at this. Hope I didn't post in the wrong spot and interrupt a conversation. I apologize if i did. Saw this was originally about the captivator sealed subs and went with it. Let me know if i need to post somewhere else.

No you posted in the right forum. Give members some time and they will respond smile.gif

The graphs I posted represent the frequency responses of my S2.
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post #468 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 08:04 AM
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Okay. Good. I am purchasing the S2 without being able to demo it but I have read nothing but rave reviews on the S1 so I am hoping I have made a good decision. I still have about 3 weeks to wait before Jeff ships mine out. Are you still pleased with yours? Based on the images I sent, do you think it will work well in my room environment?
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post #469 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myrottie View Post

Okay. Good. I am purchasing the S2 without being able to demo it but I have read nothing but rave reviews on the S1 so I am hoping I have made a good decision. I still have about 3 weeks to wait before Jeff ships mine out. Are you still pleased with yours? Based on the images I sent, do you think it will work well in my room environment?

It should work very well. My setup is in a living room area which opens to the whole house and S2 does wonders there. Mine was also a blind buy and I am still very pleased with my decision.

There is no other sealed sub in this price range that comes close to it in terms of price / performance ratio and unbeatable quality. Go for it. You will be pleased!

I wouldn't mix supercubes with the S2. They don't go down that low and you will have a hard time integrating them. If you end up having a hard time with FR you can always add another S2 in the future to smooth it out. I doubt you will need it though.
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post #470 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 10:52 AM
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Your satisfaction makes me feel more at ease. I have read nothing but great things about Jeff and his products. If you looked at the pic that shows the space behind the sofa (there is a bay window there), I have about 22" of depth to work with and I believe the S2 is just over 16" deep. I could move the sofa forward a few more inches but not much more. Would I be better facing the sub towards the back of the sofa or turn it and face it away from the sofa. May seem like a dumb question (and probably is:) )but with so little "breathing room" between the sub and sofa, I thought it might be worth asking if it would make a difference. Also, since I am not having any interference issues with my current sub set up, I was planning on just getting a RCA to XLR adapter. Am I correct in assuming that the connect on the back of the S2 is a female XLR so I would need to get a male?
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post #471 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myrottie View Post

Your satisfaction makes me feel more at ease. I have read nothing but great things about Jeff and his products. If you looked at the pic that shows the space behind the sofa (there is a bay window there), I have about 22" of depth to work with and I believe the S2 is just over 16" deep. I could move the sofa forward a few more inches but not much more. Would I be better facing the sub towards the back of the sofa or turn it and face it away from the sofa. May seem like a dumb question (and probably is:) )but with so little "breathing room" between the sub and sofa, I thought it might be worth asking if it would make a difference. Also, since I am not having any interference issues with my current sub set up, I was planning on just getting a RCA to XLR adapter. Am I correct in assuming that the connect on the back of the S2 is a female XLR so I would need to get a male?

Bass frequencies are not directional so you should be fine. I would intuitively face it away from the wall (towards the sofa) but you should experiment and leave it the way it sounds the best (or better yet, provides better FR if you can measure). You only need a few inches clearance at the minimum and it seems like you have a lot more than that.

Yes the sub contains a female XLR port on the end. I also used an adapter in the beginning but then bought this cable:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=115&cp_id=11509&cs_id=1150902&p_id=4779&seq=1&format=2

Good luck!
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post #472 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myrottie View Post

Would I be better facing the sub towards the back of the sofa or turn it and face it away from the sofa. May seem like a dumb question (and probably is:) )but with so little "breathing room" between the sub and sofa, I thought it might be worth asking if it would make a difference.

I assume you asked Jeff those questions before placing the order? If so, I'd go with his responses. He's a straightforward guy and wouldn't have given you BS answers just to sell a sub.

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post #473 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I assume you asked Jeff those questions before placing the order? If so, I'd go with his responses. He's a straightforward guy and wouldn't have given you BS answers just to sell a sub.

+1
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post #474 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 01:37 PM
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I did get to speak with Jeff when I ordered my S2 and he was very nice. I was in a noisy location and couldn't hear him very good so while he did say the S2 should work well in my room, I didn't get the chance to ask him all the questions I really wanted to. Thanks for your feedback. Now I have to get back to my lawn chair in the front yard and keep a look out for the delivery guy in case my new S2 shows up 3 weeks early!!
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post #475 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 02:30 PM
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nube
Thanks for the link, it was an interesting and informative read.

myrottie
Congrats on the purchase! I think I'll skip the lawn chair though, I'll wait for the freight delivery truck from my recliner in the air conditioning. It's just too damn humid here in Jersey right now...
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post #476 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 03:33 PM
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logicators,
One of the big problem with taking frequency response graphs at lower spl's is the possible influences affecting the low frequency readings, things such as washers, dryers, HVAC and even outside the home noise. That's why I always post only graphs with SPL of 100db minimum or more. 115db is even better. It a good practice to establish a background noise baseline then shoot for 40db above it.


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post #477 of 535 Old 07-31-2013, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myrottie View Post

I did get to speak with Jeff when I ordered my S2 and he was very nice. I was in a noisy location and couldn't hear him very good so while he did say the S2 should work well in my room, I didn't get the chance to ask him all the questions I really wanted to.

If you still have any concerns give Jeff another call - I'm sure he will gladly answer every question you have. He's a very easy going guy and loves to talk about this stuff.

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post #478 of 535 Old 08-01-2013, 05:49 AM
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Jim

Agreed.  I have my list of questions.  New I could get some of the answered here.  I will be giving Jeff a call to answer the rest.  Thanks.

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post #479 of 535 Old 08-02-2013, 06:23 AM
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Thanks to all who have replied back to me with their comments/suggestions.  I did get to speak with Jeff in length yesterday and he happily answered all my questions.  To anyone out there who is considering doing business with Jeff, I echo all the great things that have been said on this forum regarding Jeff.  Very down to earth nice guy, and very willing help you out.  Can't wait for my S2 to arrive!

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post #480 of 535 Old 08-06-2013, 08:53 AM
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Hey all! Do we know what the max spl and -3db point on the Cap S2 is?

DIY Sound Group Volt 10 surround speaker build

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