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post #91 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Will the CapS beat the SubM HP? 18" vs 2x15"

I would think very even...jeff's 2 sealed 18's in one enclosure --->I would think would definitley be big improvement over one submersive as far as output...leading me to think that one jtr dual 18 would be a better value then 2 submersives, tho you could get a better frequency response with moving the 2submersives around in different locations.

Iam referring to output and not sq...both are probably awsome, tho never heard either...really want to know more about the jtr S2...Iam almost 99.99% positive Iam going to go this route and then maybe add a couple single 18's down the road in the middle of my side walls underneath my side surrounds...size wise...the dual and then 2 singles would fit and look great in my ht!
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post #92 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Sebastian1029 View Post

Don't forget that Mark is coming out with the SubMersive XL, which is going to have dual opposed 18's, sealed, powered with 6000 watts.
As per Mark, "Since I'm already seeing questions about pricing, I'm still expecting somewhere between $3495-4295 plus veneer options depending on the specific option I settle on. To be clear, this is a 2012 product, and no, I'm not taking orders on them yet!"

Can't wait!

seriuosly...dam it! got rethink yet again and again...
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post #93 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 12:47 PM
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i wanna know if something like a an s2 or submerssive xl would offer the tactile feel and slam of the popular pa 18" offerings

i recently heard the QSC KW181 which retails for $1400 (they claim 135db peaks) and it was pretty awesome
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post #94 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfromcanada View Post

i wanna know if something like a an s2 or submerssive xl would offer the tactile feel and slam of the popular pa 18" offerings

i recently heard the QSC KW181 which retails for $1400 (they claim 135db peaks) and it was pretty awesome

They both will without a doubt equal or best that PA sub in the upper octave, and will destroy it below 40hz.
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post #95 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 02:15 PM
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No other owners out there?

I've had a little more experience with the Cap S. No major attempts at optimization besides a quick XT32 calibration. Watched Real Steel, Drive, Iron Man 2, and some of the Scubasteve demo tracks over the past week. All I can say is that I was hearing and feeling things that I had never had before in my HT. Sounds fantastic, very clean. My HT is in your typical family room open to a kitchen. This was listening at -20.

The rest of my speakers are supposed to ship on Monday. Then we'll have some real fun.
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post #96 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal87 View Post

No other owners out there?

I've had a little more experience with the Cap S. No major attempts at optimization besides a quick XT32 calibration. Watched Real Steel, Drive, Iron Man 2, and some of the Scubasteve demo tracks over the past week. All I can say is that I was hearing and feeling things that I had never had before in my HT. Sounds fantastic, very clean. My HT is in your typical family room open to a kitchen. This was listening at -20.

The rest of my speakers are supposed to ship on Monday. Then we'll have some real fun.

I own 7 and they are fantastic!
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post #97 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 03:31 PM
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I own 7 and they are fantastic!

which ones do you own?
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post #98 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

They both will without a doubt equal or best that PA sub in the upper octave, and will destroy it below 40hz.

serious? because 135db is no joke...

although below 40hz i'm quite sure you're correct
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post #99 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal87 View Post

No other owners out there?

I've had a little more experience with the Cap S. No major attempts at optimization besides a quick XT32 calibration. Watched Real Steel, Drive, Iron Man 2, and some of the Scubasteve demo tracks over the past week. All I can say is that I was hearing and feeling things that I had never had before in my HT. Sounds fantastic, very clean. My HT is in your typical family room open to a kitchen. This was listening at -20.

The rest of my speakers are supposed to ship on Monday. Then we'll have some real fun.

What sub did you have before?
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post #100 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by K-Dubb View Post

What sub did you have before?

SVS SB13 Plus
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post #101 of 535 Old 02-11-2012, 09:23 PM
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SVS SB13 Plus

Well that is encouraging! Hopefully mine will arrive this week!!
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post #102 of 535 Old 02-13-2012, 10:52 AM
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SubMersive HP vs Cap S? I think Cap S is the winner, yes? (This is perhaps not quite the least-biased location for such a question, but nonetheless.)

Damn it Jim, I'm a physicist, not an engineer!
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post #103 of 535 Old 02-14-2012, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post


They both will without a doubt equal or best that PA sub in the upper octave, and will destroy it below 40hz.

How do you know that? Have you measured them both? If not, you're just guessing.
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post #104 of 535 Old 02-23-2012, 06:07 PM
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Well I got my sub earlier this week. I have been listening to it a bit and it is amazing. I cannot believe how hard this thing hits. Not to mention how loud it can get! The problem is that my entire house rattles (it is mostly hardwood), so the louder i get the worse everything sounds. Not sure there is much I can do. I put it up on a self-made pad from foam from a SAN, but still plenty of rattles.

One question I have, I noticed that the clipping light on the amp seems to be lighting up a bit. Even when I am only at about 65 or so on the receiver, it still shows clipping. Is this normal? I am running on a shared 15amp circuit, and when the amp clips, the lights are really dimming. Could the amp clipping be caused by not enough juice?
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post #105 of 535 Old 02-23-2012, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfromcanada View Post

i wanna know if something like a an s2 or submerssive xl would offer the tactile feel and slam of the popular pa 18" offerings

i recently heard the QSC KW181 which retails for $1400 (they claim 135db peaks) and it was pretty awesome

Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

They both will without a doubt equal or best that PA sub in the upper octave, and will destroy it below 40hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by king roland View Post

How do you know that? Have you measured them both? If not, you're just guessing.

nube is right.

I owned a Yamaha CW218V (dual 18" PA drivers) which holds a loyal fan base. It was bested easily by my JTR Captivators in every regard. You can read about how the Yamaha CW218V sub compares to top shelf home theater subs to get an idea on how PA subs compare in the 2011 subwoofer meet linked in my signature.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #106 of 535 Old 02-23-2012, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Dubb View Post

One question I have, I noticed that the clipping light on the amp seems to be lighting up a bit. Even when I am only at about 65 or so on the receiver, it still shows clipping. Is this normal? I am running on a shared 15amp circuit, and when the amp clips, the lights are really dimming. Could the amp clipping be caused by not enough juice?

Congrats on your new Sub!

I have the SubMersive HP and I believe they both (SubM and Cap S) use the same 2.4Kw amp. Sorry in advance if this is a stupid question. When you say you see clip lights, what color is the light that's blinking? If it's a green blinking light, thats normal and is a signal blinking light and only indicates that the sub is receiving a signal and it's not clipping. If it truly is clipping (amber light), you may want to lower Sub trim level in your AVR so it is in the negative side or less than 0 and turn the volume up on the Cap Sub dial a few clicks. If its still truly clipping, then you may want to give Jeff a call.
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post #107 of 535 Old 02-23-2012, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

Congrats on your new Sub!

I have the SubMersive HP and I believe they both (SubM and Cap S) use the same 2.4Kw amp. Sorry in advance if this is a stupid question. When you say you see clip lights, what color is the light that's blinking? If it's a green blinking light, thats normal and is a signal blinking light and only indicates that the sub is receiving a signal and it's not clipping. If it truly is clipping (amber light), you may want to lower Sub trim level in your AVR so it is in the negative side or less than 0 and turn the volume up on the Cap Sub dial a few clicks. If its still truly clipping, then you may want to give Jeff a call.

It is the amber clipping light. The sub trim is less than half and the avr is at -1. Does this seem normal? I mean the sub is loud at 60-70, but the amp also shows clipping.
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post #108 of 535 Old 02-23-2012, 08:13 PM
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Here is another example. I set the receiver to -3 now, the sub is set to 12. I played soulja boy pretty boy swag, and turned my onkyo 809 to 60 which is a little more than halfway and the clipping light was pretty steady on the bass notes. It sounds great but this doesn't seem right. I would think it wouldn't clip till 80+ at least.
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post #109 of 535 Old 02-23-2012, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Dubb View Post

Here is another example. I set the receiver to -3 now, the sub is set to 12. I played soulja boy pretty boy swag, and turned my onkyo 809 to 60 which is a little more than halfway and the clipping light was pretty steady on the bass notes. It sounds great but this doesn't seem right. I would think it wouldn't clip till 80+ at least.

I think you're simply experiencing the way a sealed sub with a compact box works. In order to get a flat frequency response, it takes a tremendous amount of eq pre-dialed in. The power demanded from the amp is probably 5 to 10 times greater than what would be needed for a ported Captivator when frequencies that are in the heavily boosted range are played back. This is why sealed subs are often used in multiples when high output is needed.
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post #110 of 535 Old 02-23-2012, 09:12 PM
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I'm not sure if thats normal. I know mine is different Sub design than the Cap S and the amp was probably tweaked differently too but I've never seen that light even blip on my SubMersive HP. You may want to check with Jeff to see if its normal.
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post #111 of 535 Old 02-23-2012, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Dubb View Post

It is the amber clipping light. The sub trim is less than half and the avr is at -1. Does this seem normal? I mean the sub is loud at 60-70, but the amp also shows clipping.

Have you properly calibrated the sub and how loud is 60 on your AVR? What is reference level?
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post #112 of 535 Old 02-24-2012, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

nube is right.

I owned a Yamaha CW218V (dual 18" PA drivers) which holds a loyal fan base. It was bested easily by my JTR Captivators in every regard. You can read about how the Yamaha CW218V sub compares to top shelf home theater subs to get an idea on how PA subs compare in the 2011 subwoofer meet linked in my signature.

dlfromcanada was asking specifically whether a single Captivator S2 or Submersive XL would trump a single QSC KW181. Nube responded "without a doubt!", regardless of what frequency.

I am saying that it is impossible to know this definitively unless somebody has actually tested these subs with measuring equipment. The Submersive XL does not exist yet, so it's impossible to know what its FR will be, unless you're just talking about modeling the components in WinXD.

Likewise, I have not seen any comprehensive FR data on the Captivator S2, although Jeff told me it would take approximately two Captivator S (S1 not S2) to equal one Cap Pro. (I assume he meant with equal power and measured near the Cap Pro's tuning frequency, although he did not specify.)

Since neither the QSC KW181 nor the Cap S2 were tested in your shootout, I do not think it would be accurate to simply extrapolate the data from measuring two Cap S1s vs two Yamaha subs and assume that we would know how two other subs would compare.
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post #113 of 535 Old 02-24-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Dubb View Post

Here is another example. I set the receiver to -3 now, the sub is set to 12. I played soulja boy pretty boy swag, and turned my onkyo 809 to 60 which is a little more than halfway and the clipping light was pretty steady on the bass notes. It sounds great but this doesn't seem right. I would think it wouldn't clip till 80+ at least.

I dont have a Cap S but maybe its the song, not the sub. I played that song (have never heard it before) though my system and my sub acted strange too. It got up, walked across the floor, said "what the hell?" and kicked me in the face. Not sure what caused it to do that!
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post #114 of 535 Old 02-25-2012, 08:25 PM
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I will give another update when I he back from out of town next weekend. I spoke with Jeff yesterday and he thought this was odd behavior. I was not home when i spoke with him so we couldnt run tests right then. I was supposed to call him back last night but i did not get home in time. He wanted me to check to see if there were any blinking lights when the sub turns on (when i got home i checkeD and there was only 1, the clipping light which blinked a couple seconds after turning on). He also would like me to take the amp out and check the wiring which I will call him and do when I get back.

Keep in mind that this is a shared 15 amp circuit and I don't see how this amp could be reaching any limits. This does happen with all songs and music. Reference level is 80 or 85 I believe. I have not calibrated the sub with audessy yet and Jeff knows this but still thought this was odd to occur at such low volume.

I am sure we will get this figured out when I get back!
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post #115 of 535 Old 02-27-2012, 05:36 PM
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so how might a Cap S or Cap S2 compare to these numbers? even though they drop below 40hz, would there not still be significant output?

QSCkw181

Frequency response: (-6dB) 43Hz - 97kHz
Frequency range: (-10dB) 39Hz - 145Hz
Maximum SPL: (1 meter) 132dB peak

Cerwin-Vega CVA-121

Frequency Response: 35 Hz - 135 Hz (±3 dB)
Frequency Range: 32 Hz - 135 Hz (-10 dB)
Max SPL: 135 dB
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post #116 of 535 Old 02-27-2012, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfromcanada View Post

so how might a Cap S or Cap S2 compare to these numbers? even though they drop below 40hz, would there not still be significant output?

QSCkw181

Frequency response: (-6dB) 43Hz - 97kHz
Frequency range: (-10dB) 39Hz - 145Hz
Maximum SPL: (1 meter) 132dB peak

Cerwin-Vega CVA-121

Frequency Response: 35 Hz - 135 Hz (±3 dB)
Frequency Range: 32 Hz - 135 Hz (-10 dB)
Max SPL: 135 dB

It's not realistic to compare pro-subs that are designed to accompany PA systems with HT sealed subs that are designed to play down to single digit frequencies. There's no way the sealed Caps are going match those output numbers, but they are going to be able to play a couple of octaves deeper. The Growler is more comparable to those PA subs.
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post #117 of 535 Old 02-27-2012, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfromcanada View Post

so how might a Cap S or Cap S2 compare to these numbers? even though they drop below 40hz, would there not still be significant output?

QSCkw181

Frequency response: (-6dB) 43Hz - 97kHz
Frequency range: (-10dB) 39Hz - 145Hz
Maximum SPL: (1 meter) 132dB peak

Cerwin-Vega CVA-121

Frequency Response: 35 Hz - 135 Hz (±3 dB)
Frequency Range: 32 Hz - 135 Hz (-10 dB)
Max SPL: 135 dB

First off, those are manufacturer inflated numbers. And, you don't know what the response of those different products look like. ±3 dB can be interpreted as actually +0, -6 (as in the case of the QSC). Which is probably what they've done since they're made for 50hz + performance, and you see steep drop off below 43hz. It's actually a 4db drop in a mere 1/5 of an octave. That means it's around a -20db slope (I forget what order that is), but where it begins is anybody's guess.

Secondly, you have no idea what THD those supposed peaks were attained at. Since distortion somewhere above ~50hz begins to become easily audible, this is an important thing to quantify. Generally, home theater subs are measured at or below 10% THD on sine waves, and the CEA2010 methodology notes specific acceptable THD limits per frequency.

Third, as mike mentions, it's an apples to oranges comparison. Although you have a subjective opinion from Archaea on one of these brands of PA woofer (not really much of a sub, imho) compared to the PORTED Captivator, it's worth it to note that you won't generally want to use a PA woofer for subwoofer duties in movies. Since the most accepted standard LFE crossover frequency for HT use is at 80hz, the important part to consider is the sub's output below that. (Although, I suppose an argument could be made for 120hz since that's technically the top end of the LFE channel.)

Lastly, in the 40-80hz octave (which I was talking about in my previous reply), I'm pretty sure a ported Captivator, and possibly the sealed Captivator, will come close or match a PA offering if THD limited. Archaea thought so in the products he directly compared. Above that, sure, it's no contest. Below that, given the very steep curves of the PA kit, I know for a fact the Captivators will destroy them in output. Compare the JTR Growler, a PA "sub," to the Ported Captivator from 15-40hz, or to a Captivator S from 5-40hz, and there's also no contest.

There's a reason why essentially nobody here uses PA "subs" for subwoofer duties in movies: they're not designed for that. Sure, they might work, but why when there are better options? It's a relevant question, but this isn't generally a pro audio forum, if that's the application you're looking for.
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post #118 of 535 Old 02-28-2012, 12:50 AM
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First off, those are manufacturer inflated numbers. And, you don't know what the response of those different products look like. ±3 dB can be interpreted as actually +0, -6 (as in the case of the QSC). Which is probably what they've done since they're made for 50hz + performance, and you see steep drop off below 43hz. It's actually a 4db drop in a mere 1/5 of an octave. That means it's around a -20db slope (I forget what order that is), but where it begins is anybody's guess.

Secondly, you have no idea what THD those supposed peaks were attained at. Since distortion somewhere above ~50hz begins to become easily audible, this is an important thing to quantify. Generally, home theater subs are measured at or below 10% THD on sine waves, and the CEA2010 methodology notes specific acceptable THD limits per frequency.

Third, as mike mentions, it's an apples to oranges comparison. Although you have a subjective opinion from Archaea on one of these brands of PA woofer (not really much of a sub, imho) compared to the PORTED Captivator, it's worth it to note that you won't generally want to use a PA woofer for subwoofer duties in movies. Since the most accepted standard LFE crossover frequency for HT use is at 80hz, the important part to consider is the sub's output below that. (Although, I suppose an argument could be made for 120hz since that's technically the top end of the LFE channel.)

Lastly, in the 40-80hz octave (which I was talking about in my previous reply), I'm pretty sure a ported Captivator, and possibly the sealed Captivator, will come close or match a PA offering if THD limited. Archaea thought so in the products he directly compared. Above that, sure, it's no contest. Below that, given the very steep curves of the PA kit, I know for a fact the Captivators will destroy them in output. Compare the JTR Growler, a PA "sub," to the Ported Captivator from 15-40hz, or to a Captivator S from 5-40hz, and there's also no contest.

There's a reason why essentially nobody here uses PA "subs" for subwoofer duties in movies: they're not designed for that. Sure, they might work, but why when there are better options? It's a relevant question, but this isn't generally a pro audio forum, if that's the application you're looking for.

I disagree. There's no need to draw a fast and hard line between pro audio speakers and HT speakers. Case in point, look at JTR speakers. I like JTR stuff as much as the next guy, and their speakers are essentially pro audio speakers that work equally well for HT. As long as you've got a sub in your setup that can cover below 40hz, there are many pro audio speakers that will sound terrific for HT use. Another example is the CT Sounds Pro-18, which is one of the best DIY subwoofer drivers available. It was never meant to be a HT driver, but many people like it better than the legendary LMS 5400.

Mojomike is correct. Pro subs like the QSCkw181 will have much more output in their range than a sealed HT sub with similar displacement. This is in direct opposition to your claim that the Captivator S2 and Submersive XL "will without a doubt equal or best that PA sub in the upper octave".
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post #119 of 535 Old 02-29-2012, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by king roland View Post

I disagree. There's no need to draw a fast and hard line between pro audio speakers and HT speakers. Case in point, look at JTR speakers. I like JTR stuff as much as the next guy, and their speakers are essentially pro audio speakers that work equally well for HT. As long as you've got a sub in your setup that can cover below 40hz, there are many pro audio speakers that will sound terrific for HT use. Another example is the CT Sounds Pro-18, which is one of the best DIY subwoofer drivers available. It was never meant to be a HT driver, but many people like it better than the legendary LMS 5400.

Mojomike is correct. Pro subs like the QSCkw181 will have much more output in their range than a sealed HT sub with similar displacement. This is in direct opposition to your claim that the Captivator S2 and Submersive XL "will without a doubt equal or best that PA sub in the upper octave".

I think perhaps you're wanting to make a different argument, or you didn't read what I said very closely. Specifically, I don't deny people will use pro audio speakers for above 80hz because, for this application, pro audio equipment may present some of the best options available, as evidenced by tons of people using the JBL setups with their AT screens. But people don't often use pro audio "subs" for content below that in a HT setting, and with good reason. Neither of those two listed subs dlfromcanada referenced does below 40hz with authority, because they're not made to - not a whole lot of music goes much below that, maybe to 35hz, even bass-heavy types such as dubstep. If this were a question of what's best in a music-only, PA, or pro audio environment, your argument would have merit. Unfortunately, we're mostly talking about a HT environment in this forum and specifically with regards to the product referenced in this thread's title.

Further, we're comparing subwoofers solutions, not the drivers. There aren't a whole lot of PA or pro audio "subs" in cabinets, with matching amps, that are designed or tested to go much below 40hz (to my knowledge). Yes, of course there are drivers that may be designed for pro audio applications, but can be made to work for other applications with proper box and EQ design. Generally though, as I think has been shown in the DIY forum, those drivers do not excel at the lowest octaves, but their use is entirely dependent upon the DIYer's objective when utilizing them. To make that argument in this thread, in this forum, is perhaps disingenuously changing the goalposts. That's not the comparison being made. The comparison as I read it is pre-built sub solutions, and that is what I'm referring to exclusively.

I mentioned that the "upper octave" in HT is generally 40-80hz, not above that. I think you missed that part. Yes, the pro audio "subs" will likely do better in average output from 40-120hz, but I doubt their advantage will be decisive from 40-80hz, and if it is, it will be minimal if it exists at all. I already questioned the response of the pro audio products mentioned, as well as their peak output. The best way for me to estimate this without doing a direct comparison is to reference the posts of pro audio folks, such as those at the Pro Sound Web forums, or in finding people that have done similar direct comparisons, such as Archaea. I don't find that the peak SPL claims of the two products in question are validated by posts on Pro Sound Web, yet we do have Archaea saying the Captivators trounced his Yamaha CW218V pro audio sub in every respect. That's enough for me to question the argument you're making with regards to HT use of the products being discussed.
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post #120 of 535 Old 02-29-2012, 11:36 AM
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king roland,

here is my thread on PA subs vs. the commonly praised subs around these parts.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1175641

The PA subs just aren't very equitable to a nice high quality home theater sub in every category - from sound quality, to exension, to accuracy.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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