No love for X-ref? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 383 Old 02-13-2012, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I would agree. I think that's been shown, for the most part, to be case.

That is why it is especially sad that the old Ultra 12 was a pretty good bargain for it's list price of $499 while the similar-performing X-ref 12 lists for a whopping overpriced $200 more.

In this case, bang-for-the-buck dropped by 40%
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post #362 of 383 Old 02-13-2012, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I have responded to it 10,000 times, what's the point? Are you trying prove that somehow the NSD have defied the laws a physics and is some kind miracle box? Its a 34 small sealed sub.

No, it's just that you were talking about the NSD's predecessor. People noted that over and over and over and over again. Noone said anything about defying the laws of physics.

Where did I suggest any of that? My statement had nothing to do with that. It was one single point.

But I can see that your reasoning is scattered all over the place. You're accusing me of saying or insinuating things that I did not. I think I can understand why people are having such a difficult time carrying on a discussion with you.
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post #363 of 383 Old 02-13-2012, 10:12 PM
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13 pages. Hungry troll is hungry. Keep the food coming.
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post #364 of 383 Old 02-13-2012, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

13 pages. Hungry troll is hungry. Keep the food coming.

All that's needed in this forum now are dancing monkey's.
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post #365 of 383 Old 02-13-2012, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by yellowcanary73 View Post

All that's needed in this forum now are dancing monkey's.

I wish the mods would change this thread title to "The X-Ref 12 Owner Thread" (not Owners).

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post #366 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 12:16 AM
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post #367 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

SB-12 plus and NSD are essentially the same subs, apples to apples here.

Yup, except for the different: price, name, driver, cabinet, and amp, they're the same.

This thread is hilarious.

Maybe pictures will help where words failed.

The SVS SB12-NSD









Amp: 400 watt Sledge amp with custom DSP limiter settings
Driver: SVS 12" NSD driver (based off of the Peerless XXLS 12" 835017
Cabinet dimensions: 14.6" x 14.2" x 14.2"
Weight: 35 pounds
MSRP: $649 (includes shipping in USA)
Stated FR: 23-270 HZ (+/- 3DB)
Source: http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/se...&category_id=6



The (discontinued) SB12-Plus







AMP: 425 watt Bash w/1 band PEQ
Driver: SVS Plus 12.3
Cabinet dimensions: 15" x 14" x14"
Weight: 40 lb's
MSRP: $699 + shipping
Stated FR: 22-150hz (+/- 3DB)
Released: Dec. 2008
Source: http://speakers.productwiki.com/svs-sb12-plus/


Heck, if Auditor55 were trying, he'd be stating that the new NSD may not perform as well as the old Plus based off of a slightly smaller cab and very slightly less powerful amp, as well as the different driver. And who knows what that DSP limiter is doing. Of course, that means that the published material for the two subs, and corresponding measurements, would be different as well though.

Oh well, back to popcorn and observing a "scientific" debate about apples.

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post #368 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 07:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That is why it is especially sad that the old Ultra 12 was a pretty good bargain for it's list price of $499 while the similar-performing X-ref 12 lists for a whopping overpriced $200 more.

In this case, bang-for-the-buck dropped by 40%

You won't get much of argument from me when it comes to price.

I think its funny how some people will defend an egomaniac's purchase of a $460,000 dollar car and cry about a 600 dollar sub being overpriced, incredible!!
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post #369 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 07:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

No, it's just that you were talking about the NSD's predecessor. People noted that over and over and over and over again. Noone said anything about defying the laws of physics.

Where did I suggest any of that? My statement had nothing to do with that. It was one single point.

But I can see that your reasoning is scattered all over the place. You're accusing me of saying or insinuating things that I did not. I think I can understand why people are having such a difficult time carrying on a discussion with you.

NSD, SB-12, once again, are essentially the same sub with the NSD being kind of a facelift to the SB-12 plus. The only reason the NSD is now being brought up is because there is very little "credible" test measurements from the subwoofer experts. At first you had some in here posting measurements from Home Theater Shack of the SB-12, when I showed the verdict that the reviewer reached in light of those measurements, that's when some started bringing up the NSD, as if NSD and the SB-12 are apples and oranges.
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post #370 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 07:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post

13 pages. Hungry troll is hungry. Keep the food coming.

Calling someone a troll in a thread that sought out X-Ref 12 owners opinions. That's like calling someone a terrorist in their own country when they are fighting against an agressor who have occupied their country. They come in, murder, loot, rape and piliage etc. and when the native decides to fight back, they're a terrorist, Get out of here.
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post #371 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 08:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I wish the mods would change this thread title to "The X-Ref 12 Owner Thread" (not Owners).

Don't you own an Outlaw? Shouldn't you be over there instead of spamming the X-Ref threads?
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post #372 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Don't you own an Outlaw? Shouldn't you be over there instead of spamming the X-Ref threads?

It might have X-Ref in the title, but this is now the troll lair

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post #373 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 08:52 AM
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From what I can see, it wouldn't take all that much for the manufacturer to turn the performance of the X-ref 12 into something that could easily compete with the SVS. It probably would take no change in the parts whatsoever since they started out with high-quality parts and a strong amp to begin with. The shortcomings are the rapid plunge below 30hz due to the sharp filter and the rolloff above 60hz. Typically, DSP-controlled amps allow the builder to program in any sort of curve they want limited of course by the capabilities of the driver and amp. It should not be hard at all to reprogram the curve for a less severe low rolloff as well as a slight boost to flatten out the upper end to at least 100hz. The limiter could also be reprogrammed to compensate for the other changes. It should even be possible to retro-tune the existing subs, but would require the amps to be removed and sent back to the manufacturer. A simple change like that would put the sub right in the ballpark with the SVS and shouldn't change the manufacturing cost at all.

Just my humble opinion...
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post #374 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

It should not be hard at all to reprogram the curve for a less severe low rolloff as well as a slight boost to flatten out the upper end to at least 100hz. The limiter could also be reprogrammed to compensate for the other changes. It should even be possible to retro-tune the existing subs, but would require the amps to be removed and sent back to the manufacturer. A simple change like that would put the sub right in the ballpark with the SVS and shouldn't change the manufacturing cost at all.

Agree. The raw ingrediants of the Xref should allow it exceed the performance of the SB12 but their design choices in their DSP amp crippled it....but they could definitely made a running change to their DSP and it would be back in the running as a top $700 sealed sub offering.

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post #375 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 10:49 AM
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Auditor55, do you agree with these statements?
1) The X-ref 12 has solid output for a small sealed subwoofer between 30-80Hz.
2) The X-ref rolls off above 100Hz limiting it's ability to integrate with smaller speakers.
3) The X-ref has sharp roll-off below 30Hz and does not take advantage the room gain that may be present in some rooms.

If yes, then what's the problem? If no, then why not? I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Life is good.
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post #376 of 383 Old 02-14-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

NSD, SB-12, once again, are essentially the same sub with the NSD being kind of a facelift to the SB-12 plus. The only reason the NSD is now being brought up is because there is very little "credible" test measurements from the subwoofer experts. At first you had some in here posting measurements from Home Theater Shack of the SB-12, when I showed the verdict that the reviewer reached in light of those measurements, that's when some started bringing up the NSD, as if NSD and the SB-12 are apples and oranges.

I'll say it one more time for you... The Home Theater Shack review, done by Ikka, shows IN THE MEASUREMENTS that the SB12-Plus performs better than the X-Ref 12... PERIOD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

Since you won't accept any measured data that you don't think supports your "argument"... then note this from Ikka's review of the SVS SB12-Plus, which you keep referencing, although you only reference his subjective description and don't look at the actual numbers:
"+/- 3 dB points: 26.7 Hz - >200 Hz"
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...sb12-plus.html

Josh Ricci states in the Audioholics review: "As measured the X-Ref 12 fits within a 6dB total window from 28-109Hz."

Also note in Ikka's graph of the SB12-Plus, -10dB down from the peak at 70Hz is at roughly 21Hz. For the X-Ref 12, "The -10dB point from the peak at 60Hz occurs at about 200Hz on the top end and right below 26Hz on the low end. The response is down over 20dB by 20Hz." - Josh Ricci, Audioholics

...So the SB12-Plus rolls off slower on the low end, allowing for usable output at 20Hz, unlike the Xref 12 that is -20dB by 20Hz. AND, the X-ref 12 doesn't remotely come close to the top end extension of the SB12-Plus.

Stop ignoring Ikka's measurements and quoting only his subjective conclusion in a desperate attempt to support your claim that the SB12-Plus and X-Ref 12 are "pretty much the same"... and worse yet, trying to extend that to mean the X-Ref 12 and SB12-NSD are "pretty much the same" when you have absolutely no measured data to support that claim.

Last I checked, you're the ONLY person saying the SB12-Plus and SB12-NSD are "essentially the same." Folks are bringing up that sub because it is the relevant and current competition to the X-Ref... not because of any "verdict" you brought to their attention - a verdict that you are repeatedly trying to put into your own context, while ignoring the objective data that led to that verdict.
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post #377 of 383 Old 02-15-2012, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by volfan dhp View Post


As an X-ref 12 owner and the OP of this thread I will summarily agree with all THEY have said today. Especially the part about you chasing other owners away in an attempt to disassociate themselves from you and your mindless repetition of the same argument over&over&over&over...... As someone who owns and enjoys his X-ref I think in all honesty you are responsible for chasing away people who think about purchasing this product. If you would just let it go there wouldn't be constant reminders from others of its limitations and shortfalls. The range of this sub works well for what I needed it for, matching well with my Aperion Grand setup and small room, but had I seen you bickering constantly about it I probably would have taken my chances with the Epik Legend (even with its amp problems). Anybody wanna buy an X-ref?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post


Calling someone a troll in a thread that sought out X-Ref 12 owners opinions. That's like calling someone a terrorist in their own country when they are fighting against an agressor who have occupied their country. They come in, murder, loot, rape and piliage etc. and when the native decides to fight back, they're a terrorist, Get out of here.

Sounds more like the 'people' are being taken over by a native extremist and want to be freed from the oppression.
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post #378 of 383 Old 02-15-2012, 07:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan1000 View Post

Auditor55, do you agree with these statements?
1) The X-ref 12 has solid output for a small sealed subwoofer between 30-80Hz.
2) The X-ref rolls off above 100Hz limiting it's ability to integrate with smaller speakers.
3) The X-ref has sharp roll-off below 30Hz and does not take advantage the room gain that may be present in some rooms.

If yes, then what's the problem? If no, then why not? I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

1) AN- I don't know what you consider "solid" output to be, but my purposes and or my listening habits, yes it does.

2) AN- I don't know what you classify as "smaller" speakers, I have some speakers that I classify as small speakers and no its not a problem. It could be a problem if you have what I classify as tiny speakers and if you don't use bass management.

3) AN- It could be an issue if you feel you need or want more gain from the room your in. I find that, after running auto cal, most people around here don't seem to happy with the results, so they turn up the bass, getting away from accuracy.
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post #379 of 383 Old 02-15-2012, 08:03 AM
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dear me... "terrorists"... someone has gone completely over the edge...

- chris

 

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post #380 of 383 Old 02-15-2012, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

1) AN- I don't know what you consider "solid" output to be, but my purposes and or my listening habits, yes it does.

2) AN- I don't know what you classify as "smaller" speakers, I have some speakers that I classify as small speakers and no its not a problem. It could be a problem if you have what I classify as tiny speakers and if you don't use bass management.

3) AN- It could be an issue if you feel you need or want more gain from the room your in. I find that, after running auto cal, most people around here don't seem to happy with the results, so they turn up the bass, getting away from accuracy.

From what I read above, it seems that we agree on all three points. Then what's the source of the argument? You acknowledge that the X-ref has limitations and may be an issue for some people.

Let's face it, all subwoofers have limitations and trade-offs. It's up to the end-user to decide what limitations are acceptable and what are not. With that said, what works for you may not work for others.

Life is good.
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post #381 of 383 Old 02-15-2012, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jhan1000 View Post

From what I read above, it seems that we agree on all three points. Then what's the source of the argument? You acknowledge that the X-ref has limitations and may be an issue for some people.

Let's face it, all subwoofers have limitations and trade-offs. It's up to the end-user to decide what limitations are acceptable and what are not. With that said, what works for you may not work for others.

I really don't have argument with you then. I never claimed this subwoofer to be anything other what it is. I think folks might be somewhat miffed that I can appreciate a sub like this given its negatives. I can because, in my system, it sounds good. I fully understand that this sub isn't for everyone or fits what somenone might need or want. Also, I don't argue price. Each individual have the right to determine the value of an item they might be interested in purchasing.
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post #382 of 383 Old 02-15-2012, 01:17 PM
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As long as I can get solid, tight bass and can stay away from dangerous nazi infrasonics, I'm sold.
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post #383 of 383 Old 02-15-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by leninGHOLA View Post

As long as I can get solid, tight bass and can stay away from dangerous nazi infrasonics, I'm sold.

See, I'd be afraid of the mystical, paranormal power that the X-Ref 12 has to turn some owners into cult worshipers. Less risky would be the NHT B-12d. Good bet that it has a similar SQ, but with a little better high end frequency response range

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