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post #1 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a new array of DefTech ProMonitor 1000s as L/R and surrounds, with a ProCenter 2000. Also a pair of old Cambridge Soundworks Ambiance as rear surrounds, due to be replaced. A Pioneer VSX-1021 is the AVR

I'm very happy with the sound of this system in my small room -- 13x15, acoustically deadish with wall-to-wall carpeting and lots of upholstered furniture, with a 9 foot ceiling. The back of the room is completely open to the main living room, which is 13x25. The space is set up for two or three people, who are only 6 to 8 feet from the front speakers. The open back does remove back-wall reflection as reinforcement, however, so I tend to have to push the amps a little harder than you might expect in a space that small. OTOH, we're sitting close to the speakers.

The sub is my old Cambridge Soundworks BassCube 15, which is sort of the opposite of what I want: it shakes the house and everything in it, but it's not particularly tight or punchy. It's too big for the space, and it limits placement options.

I listen to a lot of music, including hi-rez music from BD, DACD, and DVD-A. Everything from jazz, classical, and folk to progressive rock.

The system is of course also used a lot for movies and TV, and I do like my action movies on BD, but I don't need those ultimate few Hz all the way at the bottom.

I'm looking for a sub that is:

-small enough that I can experiment with placement;
-very accurate for music -- this is the most important factor;
-appropriate for use with a crossover of 80Hz;
-fine for LFE, but earthshaking is not required;
-under $500. As far under as is reasonable.

All recommendations and discussion greatly appreciated!

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post #2 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 12:38 PM
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To meet those requirements the budget will have to be increased substantially.
Of course you could give box dimensions and weight you consider easy placement for a better answer.
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post #3 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

To meet those requirements the budget will have to be increased substantially.
Of course you could give box dimensions and weight you consider easy placement for a better answer.

What I have now is about 21" on a side, weighs 73 pounds. So, smaller than that. Let's say 35-50lb, and 15-17" on a side. And appearance is unimportant.

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post #4 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 01:18 PM
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The Epik Legend is $499 (but I am not sure if thats shipped) and its only 15 inches wide

http://epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html
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post #5 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 01:47 PM
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Two of these should do what you want :

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/m8.html

no - they won't "pressurize" the room or slam your chest but I believe they would meet your requirements.

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post #6 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 01:48 PM
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Your room is 4680 Sq. Ft combined (you can't count them separately if they are open to each other), so the recommendations you receive will be highly dependent on what kind of performance you're after. If you want decent punch and under 20Hz performance (as it seems you do), there aren't a lot of options for that sized room, especially within your space requirements. The Oulaw LFM-1 EX comes to mind, but it's larger than what you desire and only on sale at $550 shipped for another day (until the end of Jan.), and it's also back ordered. You would receive a voucher for the subwoofer at the sale price, though. Otherwise the already mentioned Epik Legend might get the job done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen arcane View Post

Two of these should do what you want :

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/m8.html

no - they won't "pressurize" the room or slam your chest but I believe they would meet your requirements.

You're right, they certainly won't pressurize; I don't know that anything within his price range will in that room.

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post #7 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 02:02 PM
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Sounds like the perfect match for an epik legend for $499.

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post #8 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 02:11 PM
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post #9 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 02:45 PM
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You want small musical and hit hard this is all I know that would fit that category.
http://www.jlaudio.com/home-audio-po...woofers-fathom
If you are willing to compromise on size and weight other option are available.
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post #10 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

You want small musical and hit hard this is all I know that would fit that category.
http://www.jlaudio.com/home-audio-po...woofers-fathom
If you are willing to compromise on size and weight other option are available.

Perhaps you missed the part about a $500 budget

Additionally, JL Audio is introducing the new E series. Much less expensive than the F series.

Availability Q3 2012.
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post #11 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Perhaps you missed the part about a $500 budget

Additionally, JL Audio is introducing the new E series. Much less expensive than the F series.

Availability Q3 2012.

I did not miss it at all as my earlier post said his budget will have to increase for small hard hitting and musical if you know of something within his budget that meets his criteria put a link up i know of nothing.
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post #12 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the thoughts. Maybe I wasn't clear -- I value musicality above all else. I don't need (or even really want) sub-20Hz performance. Making my breastbone vibrate would just bring on another heart attack, and I've had all of those I care to!

I get that the adjacent spaces can't be ignored. At the same time, the listening position puts the front array in almost a nearfield relationship with the listeners (there are only two chairs). I am six feet from the front right and center channel speakers, and 9 feet from the sub.

The DefTechs are modest speakers, and the Pioneer is no powerhouse. If the sub can mate well with the speakers and give me musical clarity down to 25Hz -- which is more likely if it's small enough that I can experiment with placement -- I will be happy.

What about the Outlaw LFM-1? (I don't think I can accommodate two subs unless they were right next to each other in the spot where the current one is... and I'm hoping not to be locked into that one placement, which is below the right-hand window in a 3-window bay, located behind the TV which is sitting on an AV credenza. The credenza is flanked by the mains on stands, and the CC is in the credenza, tilted up, directly below the TV.)

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post #13 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishpoke View Post

sounds like the perfect match for an epik legend for $499.

Sealed
2x 12" drivers (opposed to cancel out vibrations)
small footprint
good community feedback.

+1
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post #14 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 04:02 PM
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I agree that the Epik Legend is your best bet
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post #15 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, after reading through their website, Epik Legend goes on the short list. I wish it weighed less, but I understand why it doesn't.

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post #16 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 04:06 PM
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I really like the Epik Empire for music, I've not heard an Epik Legend, but assuming similar tonal quality - it might be just the ticket.

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post #17 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 04:27 PM
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The Epik Legend is a very, very good sub woofer and very musical. I've a pair of them with a full Thiel/Krell HT and they fit in just nicely.

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post #18 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 04:43 PM
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post #19 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Any concerns about the auto-power switch failures being reported in the Epik thread?

Anybody with a suggestion for anything smaller/lighter than the Legend?

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post #20 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 04:47 PM
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There really aren't many small subs that can go down to 25Hz with a lot of output in that price range. SVS SB12 may meet your needs but it is $649. I guess it is $649 shipped. Not significantly off your budget.

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/se...&category_id=6

I had the last year SB12 model. I noticed that I had to crank up the sub level on my AVR a lot for the auto power to kick in. I like to set the volume knob on the sub at the middle and let Audyssey decide the level on my AVR. But it wasnt working that way. I did contact SVS and that was their only solution i.e crank up the sub level on the AVR. So I returned it.
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post #21 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

define "musical sub"

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21564340

There's more to accuracy than frequency response. The hardest thing for a large radiator to do is to stop vibrating once it starts. My current sub is very loud and goes very deep, but I question its accuracy. I've heard better, but I don't know how much of the difference is the sub and how much is the room interaction. That's one reason I'm looking for something with more placement options.

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post #22 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

There's more to accuracy than frequency response. The hardest thing for a large radiator to do is to stop vibrating once it starts. My current sub is very loud and goes very deep, but I question its accuracy. I've heard better, but I don't know how much of the difference is the sub and how much is the room interaction. That's one reason I'm looking for something with more placement options.

Are you using active/passive room correction right now with your sub? Do you think that would help your current sub. If your current sub sounds boomy (I presumed since you said it is not tight) without any correction, it is highly likely that any other sub in the $500 range would also sound like that.
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post #23 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 05:17 PM
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BTW my current sub is the Sunfie True subwoofer. No it is not the made in China version which seems to have a lot of issues. I bought it back in 2001 and have been using it since then without any issues. It is a 9" cube. Sure it does not go down to 25Hz but does upper 20's very well. I dont play very loud. My issues is also weight and easy placement. The SVS SB12 that I got last year wasnt significantly better. So I am hesitant to put down $649 on it again. I also tried the Emotiva Ultra12 and again not a night and day difference compared to my tiny Sufire
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post #24 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 05:21 PM
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That is the sub you need the Sunfire True Sub. The retail is over your budget but you can find used ones for $350 or so.
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post #25 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 05:25 PM
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Placement, seating position and room correction all should be considered.

Guess I'll derail this thread by saying that the best sounding sub (or powered woofer as sub is a misnomer in this case) I have out of the nine I own is........on the patio.

Lows certainly are articulate without boundaries.

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post #26 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

There really aren't many small subs that can go down to 25Hz with a lot of output in that price range. SVS SB12 may meet your needs but it is $649. I guess it is $649 shipped. Not significantly off your budget.

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/se...&category_id=6

I had the last year SB12 model. I noticed that I had to crank up the sub level on my AVR a lot for the auto power to kick in. I like to set the volume knob on the sub at the middle and let Audyssey decide the level on my AVR. But it wasnt working that way. I did contact SVS and that was their only solution i.e crank up the sub level on the AVR. So I returned it.

Yeah, thats one thing I don't like about the SB12's amp. The best solution is to leave it on instead of using the auto on. It does however have one of the best implementaions of a limiter I've heard yet. It is very detailed with music and plays deep for in inexpensive sealed 12 inch sub.
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post #27 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 09:44 PM
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Another option is the CS10.2. It is similar to the Legend but uses 2-10 inch woofers instead. It is not that wide but is 26 inches tall and being a sealed sub it is best placed in a corner to take advantage of room gain. They are extremely good with music and also have a decent amount of slam for HT. One would cost $445 shipped. I had one and ended up getting a second as I was very impressed with their overall performance. Not the best looking sub in the world but one of the best performing for music at its price level.
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post #28 of 38 Old 01-30-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Any concerns about the auto-power switch failures being reported in the Epik thread?

I had concerns about that, but really couldn't find anything I liked better than the Legend. I've had mine for just over a month, set the switch to auto as suggested in the Epik thread, and left it alone. So far, so good.

I'm quite happy with the Legend, and I feel confident that Epik will take care of any problems that arise during the warranty period.
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post #29 of 38 Old 01-31-2012, 08:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

BTW my current sub is the Sunfie True subwoofer. No it is not the made in China version which seems to have a lot of issues. I bought it back in 2001 and have been using it since then without any issues. It is a 9" cube. Sure it does not go down to 25Hz but does upper 20's very well. I dont play very loud. My issues is also weight and easy placement. The SVS SB12 that I got last year wasnt significantly better. So I am hesitant to put down $649 on it again. I also tried the Emotiva Ultra12 and again not a night and day difference compared to my tiny Sufire

I just sold my Sunfire for parts, after about 10 years.
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post #30 of 38 Old 01-31-2012, 09:54 AM
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Mine is working just fine even after 10 yrs
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