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post #1 of 19 Old 01-30-2012, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone have a guess which direction I should point the subs in my front speakers? Currently, I have them pointing towards the screen. Perhaps reversing the speakers so they point towards the side walls would be better?

The attached image (it's rather outdated) gives you a rough idea. Of course I could try both ways and I presume Audyssey would correct some things...

Here's the speaker's specs. I also have powered subs in my sides as well and I have them pointing towards the listener instead of the away from them.
  • 3-way, powered floorstanding loudspeaker with system-specific crossovers
  • 125-watt integrated amplifier
  • 10" powered subwoofer with DCD™ driver offers extended excursion
  • 12" passive radiator
  • Side-firing woofer design conserves floor space in home theater applications
  • Patented BassTrac® circuitry eliminates distortion
  • Dual 4½" midrange drivers
  • 1" VR® tweeter with anodized aluminum dome, AMD™, and extruded aluminum heat sink
  • Tight, point-source driver alignment for precise imaging and wider dispersion
  • Slim enclosure and cloth grille create a clean visual profile
  • MagnaGuard® magnetic shielding prevents video interference
  • Internally braced cabinets eliminate unwanted resonance
  • Reference-quality Boston Sound™

LL

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post #2 of 19 Old 01-30-2012, 05:58 PM
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As we always say in these threads...

Do the "subwoofer crawl" to find the best placement!!!!!
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-30-2012, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

As we always say in these threads...

Do the "subwoofer crawl" to find the best placement!!!!!

Since my subs are located in my fronts I don't think that's an option.

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post #4 of 19 Old 01-30-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Since my subs are located in my fronts I don't think that's an option.

Then do what sounds best... Sorry to be so short, but every room is different so there is no universal answer to placement so you need to experiment and see what works best in your room
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-30-2012, 06:13 PM
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Try a 1/3 of the wall back from the front wall.

Or place them close as possible, to your fronts facing out.
(Carl Kenedy from JL subs, suggestion)

Honest Graft.
"I saw my opportunities, and took them"!
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post #6 of 19 Old 01-30-2012, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I didn't explain the situation well enough. My front speakers have a built-in powered sub (see specs) and as such first and foremost their placement is based on them being my front speakers. So my (only) option is to leave them as is or swap them so the subs point in the opposite direction. Again, I don't have stand alone subs... I was wondering if typically pointing them towards the room/wall or towards the corner would produce better results. Just trying to decide if it's worth swapping them around, rerunning Audyssey, etc.

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post #7 of 19 Old 01-30-2012, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Sorry, I didn't explain the situation well enough. My front speakers have a built-in powered sub (see specs) and as such first and foremost their placement is based on them being my front speakers. So my (only) option is to leave them as is or swap them so the subs point in the opposite direction. Again, I don't have stand alone subs... I was wondering if typically pointing them towards the room/wall or towards the corner would produce better results. Just trying to decide if it's worth swapping them around, rerunning Audyssey, etc.

Honestly Specs mean nothing to me as all manufacturers lie... You will catch for bears with honey or in this case more forum posters with listing the brand and model number of your speakers.

Honestly though only you can be the true judge if one way sounds better than the other. So take a day and move your setup around and see what you like. I know you don't want to do the work but thats the only true way of telling.
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post #8 of 19 Old 01-30-2012, 08:20 PM
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When I had AR's with the 12inch side firing woofers it always sounded better with the woofers firing towards the wall instead of each other but they were 3ft from the side walls.
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post #9 of 19 Old 01-30-2012, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

You will catch for bears with honey or in this case more forum posters with listing the brand and model number of your speakers.

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/VR975-P318.aspx

Quote:


So take a day and move your setup around and see what you like. I know you don't want to do the work but thats the only true way of telling.

It's not so much about doing the work. How would one even test to see which way performed better... Best case I would listen to a passage or two and I'm guessing I couldn't A/B them apart. Which I guess means it doesn't really matter. Even if I could tell a difference perhaps it might be the opposite with the next passage. As before Audyssey might make it mute anyway. I understand there isn't a rule of thumb I was simply looking for a best guess. More than likely I'll swap them and unless it sounds really bad that's that.

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post #10 of 19 Old 01-31-2012, 04:43 AM
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If your speakers are within a couple (1-3) of feet from the side walls, best guess is you would get some reinforcement pointing woofers out. Whether or not you think they sound better??????
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post #11 of 19 Old 01-31-2012, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I flipped them around last night. (must be close to 100 lbs) so now the subs are pointing towards the corner instead of towards the screen. I'm redoing the equipment in the room so it will be awhile before I get to play around. Just FYI I'll post back when I get a chance to see if I could tell a difference, etc.

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post #12 of 19 Old 01-31-2012, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/VR975-P318.aspx

It's not so much about doing the work. How would one even test to see which way performed better... Best case I would listen to a passage or two and I'm guessing I couldn't A/B them apart.

That's certainly the best approach, as in the end all that matters is that you like the sound. However, measuring the room is also a good idea; that way you can actually see the dips, peaks and how low your subs are extending in your room. Do you have the equipment to use REW and take room measurements (a mic, capable soundcard and the proper cables)? If not, can you swing a couple hundred bucks to acquire said equipment? I know you're changing things around and won't be able to listen for a while, so this might be a good time to gather the necessary tools to measure that room, which is super nice looking, by the way.


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post #13 of 19 Old 01-31-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

As we always say in these threads...

Do the "subwoofer crawl" to find the best placement!!!!!

Thanks for this video. Even though the presenter does a great job showing how to find the best spot to place 1 subwoofer using the the "crawl" method, his comment at the end of the video regarding 2 subwoofers confused me.

Watch at the very end where he says that for even better bass you should be using 2 subwoofers and place the 2nd sub right across the first sub. So I think he implies (not sure though) that we can use this 2-step process:

(1) Take sub #1 and place it in the best possible spot using the subwoofer crawl method as illustrated. (I guess while doing this, leave sub #2 unplugged or off).

(2) After the best spot for sub #1 is found, take sub #2 and place it on the spot that's exactly opposite to sub #1.

Anybody done this method for 2 subs? I found myself asking "what if the 2nd spot across from the 1st is not free? How do you then proceed to find the best spot for sub #2? (If this is really NOT what he implied in the video, can anybody decipher what he says at the end there?)

Also I kept thinking that if you could find the best 2 spots to place 2 subs, why should one of them be the same as the best spot for a single subwoofer? I can't answer this one.

BTW researching this on Audioholics I found references to Floyd Tool's recommendation that in rectangular rooms the best 2 spots for 2 subs are supposed to be along the 2 mid-wall points that are facing each other but this assumes that the listening area is in the center of the room. Also this doesn't provide you with any assurance that you have found the best 2 spots after you put the subs there.

I have been looking for a version of the "subwoofer crawl" method that applies to 2 subwoofers and haven't been able to find one spelled out clearly until this blurp at the end of this guy's video.
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post #14 of 19 Old 01-31-2012, 12:16 PM
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Measurement equipment is a must, you cant do it right by ear.....


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post #15 of 19 Old 01-31-2012, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Do you have the equipment to use REW and take room measurements (a mic, capable soundcard and the proper cables)? If not, can you swing a couple hundred bucks to acquire said equipment? I know you're changing things around and won't be able to listen for a while, so this might be a good time to gather the necessary tools to measure that room, which is super nice looking, by the way.

Thanks for the kind words. I only own a trusty old RS sound meter. I'm thinking my best bet would have Ken Whitcomb figure it out. I typically have him tweak the projector (he is one of the best!) and he does audio as well. Long time ago I purchased a cheap sensor and did more harm than good. When Ken came over he instantly saw this and that and after being enlightened I quickly sold the sensor on eBay!

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post #16 of 19 Old 01-31-2012, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Measurement equipment is a must, you cant do it right by ear.....

Well I agree but there are limitations to this as well. Measurement equipment will not move your 2 subwoofers around to find the best place for them. It will only tell you how "flat" the response is for a SPECIFIC placement you have pre-selected. You would have to do the moving and remeasuring repeatedly.

Since there is a already great method (the "crawl") to quickly find the best spot for 1 sub without going through the hassle of microphone measurements (instead relying on your own ears) I thought there might be a variation that allows you to find two spots for 2 subs by a similarly "quick" procedure.

Since nobody seems to point one out (and believe me I have searched for one) I am concluding there probably isn't one.

I do agree that after I find the best 2 spots for the 2 subs, I am having Audyssey XT32 do the EQ. But this comes second and after the placement problem is solved.
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post #17 of 19 Old 02-01-2012, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Thanks for the kind words. I only own a trusty old RS sound meter. I'm thinking my best bet would have Ken Whitcomb figure it out. I typically have him tweak the projector (he is one of the best!) and he does audio as well. Long time ago I purchased a cheap sensor and did more harm than good. When Ken came over he instantly saw this and that and after being enlightened I quickly sold the sensor on eBay!

Your good 'ol RS meter will work just fine and should be accurate up to about 3KHz. If you want to have Ken check things out, cool, otherwise all you'd need is the REW software (which is free), a laptop or PC and a capable soundcard (most use an external soundcard such as the M-Audio MobilePre USB).

With that said, I would start with the sub crawl test first. This will help you find the best location without having to measure, and once narrowed down to a few spots you can then measure and listen to choose the final location. There really isn't a better combo in order to find the ideal subwoofer location(s) IMO.

Best wishes to you and your awesome room!

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Originally Posted by Upgrader View Post

Well I agree but there are limitations to this as well. Measurement equipment will not move your 2 subwoofers around to find the best place for them. It will only tell you how "flat" the response is for a SPECIFIC placement you have pre-selected. You would have to do the moving and remeasuring repeatedly.

Since there is a already great method (the "crawl") to quickly find the best spot for 1 sub without going through the hassle of microphone measurements (instead relying on your own ears) I thought there might be a variation that allows you to find two spots for 2 subs by a similarly "quick" procedure.

Since nobody seems to point one out (and believe me I have searched for one) I am concluding there probably isn't one.

I do agree that after I find the best 2 spots for the 2 subs, I am having Audyssey XT32 do the EQ. But this comes second and after the placement problem is solved.

I am sure there are placement recommendations out there that work for many rooms, but not all of them. Every situation is different, which is why experimentation, listening tests and measurements are so important. Speaking of measurements, they aren't as much of a hassle as you make them out to be. Using REW as an example, once the inital one-time setup is complete, taking a measurement takes five minutes, including setup of the equipment used. It's nothing more than plugging in a few cables (into your soundcard and receiver, not to mention the SPL meter), then turning up your system until it's within 5dB or so of 75dB, then finally taking a measurement. It takes five minutes.


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post #18 of 19 Old 02-16-2012, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

With that said, I would start with the sub crawl test first. This will help you find the best location without having to measure, and once narrowed down to a few spots you can then measure and listen to choose the final location. There really isn't a better combo in order to find the ideal subwoofer location(s) IMO.

I understand the crawl but if you read my post my fronts have powered subs and they are what I'm using for subs. As such their location is determined by what works the best as fronts. The subs location in this case take a back seat.

Anyway, I finally installed a receiver and with the fronts swapped (so the subs are facing outwards towards the corner of the room - see original post for image) they appear to be louder. Since Audyssey set them to -10.5 and before (facing inwards) they got set to -2 or so if I remember. The receiver is a different model and it's the XT version but I'm guessing that doesn't alter the volume level.

Now whether they sound better I haven't gone there yet. I still need to install some other equipment! I find it interesting how Audyssey handles the fronts which this time it set the crossover at 40 and set them to small. Since the subs are active as fronts I wonder why they aren't being set to large... in the past I have receivers set them both ways. Typically, with a higher crossover. I'm assuming the subs are active via the speaker input... I guess I should check to be sure.

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post #19 of 19 Old 02-16-2012, 01:02 PM
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^ My bad. I knew that, so I don't know why I mentioned the sub crawl test. Brain fart...


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