Ok, now I am confused. Just how crazy are some of these subs... - AVS Forum
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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Ok, now I am confused. Just how crazy are some of these subs...
basementdweller1's Avatar basementdweller1 03:33 PM 02-02-2012
Alright, on another thread I mentioned I am looking for a sub for a new basement theater room that is in the 2400 cubic feet range, but open to another room on one entire side for a total of 4000 cubic feet. I mentioned my price range of $500-750 and most have advocated the Epik Empire, Hsu VTF-15H, Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX, or Rythmik FV15HP. So far so good... until what I did today.

Upstairs in my family room, I have a Paradigm 5.1 system with a small Paradigm PDR-8 (8 in woofer) sub. My family room is 20x18 but with 2 story cathedral ceilings so 6000+ cubic ft and on one side is open to the kitchen which is at least another 2700 cubic ft. As for the sub I keep it turned WAY down because of small kids. So today because I am looking into subs and being told I need a larger sub for my large basement space (and I intend for sure to play it considerably louder) I cranked up my little PDR-8. Without really even trying I had what I consider to be rip roaring bass that you could physically feel, almost to the point of being uncomfortable even in what is nearly 9000 cubic feet of connected space. Ok, now you all think I am a giant wuss, and I probably am but I was pretty happy with the sound which I thought was great in an action movie I watched. Most of the bass was what I considered tight and hard hitting but I admit some of the rougher explosion sounds were a bit muddy even if I considered them loud or strong. Sooooo....

If a little 8 inch sub can do this what the heck am I expecting out of a Epik Empire for example with two 15 inch woofers? I don't mind the idea of more clean, punchy sound but I don't know I want more wall shaking then my little 8 inch sub from Paradigm was able to do when I didn't even turn it up all the way in what is a much larger area than my basement theater area. Does this change what I should be aiming for? I assume I can turn a sub like the Epik Empire way down, but should I instead be aiming for a legend etc.? Having never heard "big" subs before I don't know what the heck people are enjoying when they get 2 or more 15-18 inch monsters going at the same time when I felt like the little PDR-8 was pretty compelling.

I guess I just retired my man card...

eljaycanuck's Avatar eljaycanuck 03:42 PM 02-02-2012
In my experience, a sub in a room that sits on joists will benefit from "floor effect" - vibration transmitted through the joists to the seating area - which amplifies the sub's performance.

My old SVS PB10-NSD used to blow me away when my HT was on my main floor. (Even my first sub, a considerably less-potent DefTech ProSub 200TL, was impressive.) When I moved everything into the basement (laminate over concrete, ~3,375 cu.ft.), the floor effect was gone...and suddenly I was missing a lot of the excitement the PB10 used to provide.

I had to make up the deficit with pressurization, so I moved up to a PB12-NSD and, eventually, to dual ChaseHT SS-18.1s. Much better now.

Try your PDR-8 in your basement and see what happens.
basementdweller1's Avatar basementdweller1 04:05 PM 02-02-2012
Good point, in particular with the space on the joists empty right now, it is framed but no insulation or drywall yet. I could almost feel the floor buzzing.
ack_bk's Avatar ack_bk 04:20 PM 02-02-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

In my experience, a sub in a room that sits on joists will benefit from "floor effect" - vibration transmitted through the joists to the seating area - which amplifies the sub's performance.

My old SVS PB10-NSD used to blow me away when my HT was on my main floor. (Even my first sub, a considerably less-potent DefTech ProSub 200TL, was impressive.) When I moved everything into the basement (laminate over concrete, ~3,250 cu.ft.), the floor effect was gone...and suddenly I was missing a lot of the excitement the PB10 used to provide.

I had to make up the deficit with pressurization, so I moved up to a PB12-NSD and, eventually, to dual ChaseHT SS-18.1s. Much better now.

Try your PDR-8 in your basement and see what happens.

I found this to be true in my basement as well. I hooked up my PA-150 and my eD A2-300 in my living room on the main level which has taller ceilings (9ft vs 8ft in the basement) and is about 1000 cubic sq ft larger than my basement and I was very happy with the results.

Finished the basement, hooked them up, and was dissapointed (8ft ceilings, and carpet over concrete). I am going to do some tuning with Audyssey MultiEQ and add some more room treatments, but it is pretty clear to me that this solution is not going to cut it for me.

basementdweller1, I think this is good advice to move your sub down to the basement once the drywall is up.

And perhaps you just get something like an Epik Legend and add a second one down the road if you want more. There are advantages to multiple subs anyway.
basementdweller1's Avatar basementdweller1 05:20 PM 02-02-2012
Well I mean I could get a Epik Empire to be sure, but lets ask this... wasted money not counted, is it better to have a smaller sub driven louder or a big sub driven quieter (for the overall same volume level), which sounds better? Do you need to "open up" a sub to have it sound good... I may just get something like an Empire and be more "future proofed" for when the kids are older and Mom is out of the house and we can turn up Stars Wars you know... but I don't want to sacrifice the sound of a bit quieter bass right now.
basementdweller1's Avatar basementdweller1 05:25 PM 02-02-2012
PS: Reason I am looking at an Empire is it seems the right size for my space 4000 cubic ft., is well reviewed, and I can pick it up here locally... I have to pay tax but no shipping so it comes out to about $850 which is a bit of a savings compared to no tax, but shipping. I am still open to other options, in particular if they are more inexpensive for what I am looking for. I guess my point is I want the feeling of strong clean, bass like you get in a real theater but I am not looking for something so earth shattering it shakes the whole house and offends other family members so I am watching movies alone.
flickhtguru's Avatar flickhtguru 05:56 PM 02-02-2012
Go for it! Get the Empire if its what you want and can afford. You won't regret your decision. I would rather have a better sub and maybe have it turned down and know that i have much more power on hand, than have a lil sub driven so hard it distorts.
the Son's Avatar the Son 07:05 PM 02-02-2012
Any chance someone here is in your area and could demo subs for you?

I know one member here actually took his subs to another member's house so he could decide for himself.
Shan87's Avatar Shan87 07:16 PM 02-02-2012
That 8's probably noticable in the higher bass frequencies but you'll be surprised at how much bass you're missing.

I've got 2 18's (Ultra 5400's) in over 9000cuft and can say that it takes quite a bit of sub to get enough output from the lower frequencies in that much space.
lovinthehd's Avatar lovinthehd 07:54 PM 02-02-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by basementdweller1 View Post

PS: Reason I am looking at an Empire is it seems the right size for my space 4000 cubic ft., is well reviewed, and I can pick it up here locally... I have to pay tax but no shipping so it comes out to about $850 which is a bit of a savings compared to no tax, but shipping. I am still open to other options, in particular if they are more inexpensive for what I am looking for. I guess my point is I want the feeling of strong clean, bass like you get in a real theater but I am not looking for something so earth shattering it shakes the whole house and offends other family members so I am watching movies alone.

I love my Empire. You can turn it down, but having the extra headroom is always a plus. Go for it. Only downside would be wrestling it down the stairs, they're not light.
Speed Daemon's Avatar Speed Daemon 08:49 AM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan87 View Post

That 8's probably noticable in the higher bass frequencies but you'll be surprised at how much bass you're missing.

How true...so true!

I knew I had done something right when I finally had a speaker system that played every note of the Moog Taurus with equal amplitude, vs. the "some notes loud, some notes soft, some notes not there at all" response of earlier systems that were all I could afford at the time.

To be fair, an 8" driver as part of a properly designed loudspeaker can deliver plenty of bass extension...up to a certain SPL. I've long since forgotten most of the "why", but back when I was into things like that for PA use, my calculations showed that many of the 18" drivers of the day were the easiest route to great bass, with one driver per cab. Next best was a pair of 15" drivers per cab. No matter what size drivers, the one key factor was an enclosure that was substantially larger than those used by every home subwoofer maker today. Yes those little boxes make big boom. But they can't make sustained bass notes sound even and effortless. There's no substitute for cubic inches!
cel4145's Avatar cel4145 09:13 AM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan87 View Post

That 8's probably noticable in the higher bass frequencies but you'll be surprised at how much bass you're missing.

+1

Based on the specs on the Paradigm website, looks the PDR-8 doesn't go below 30hz.
Theresa's Avatar Theresa 09:18 AM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

How true...so true!
No matter what size drivers, the one key factor was an enclosure that was substantially larger than those used by every home subwoofer maker today. Yes those little boxes make big boom. But they can't make sustained bass notes sound even and effortless. There's no substitute for cubic inches!

I came to the conclusion that the primary reason that retail subs have such small cabinets is shipping. Shipping cost sky rockets with larger enclosures. There is indeed no substitute for cubic inches with subs and that is one reason that mine are DIY. Since I'm not a carpenter I found a local cabinet builder to build the enclosures.
Then there's Spousal Acceptance Factor that many have to deal with, luckily I do not.
basementdweller1's Avatar basementdweller1 10:26 AM 02-03-2012
well the empire would fit and the cabinet isn't an issue for my WAF, it is more of is the sound of the thing going to be unacceptable to my wife. i think i am leaning empire, i'll hold off a bit as the basement won't be ready for a sub until around late March so i'll order it early in march.
Theresa's Avatar Theresa 10:34 AM 02-03-2012
I do think that subsonics are more of a guy thing. I have my high pass filters set to 20Hz. I really don't like subsonics all that much. They are often used to inspire dread, there's research on this, and I don't like feeling dread, its dreadful Going down to 20Hz is important to me though, perhaps it is subjective and arbitrary of me to pick that frequency.
JHAz's Avatar JHAz 10:46 AM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I don't like feeling dread, its dreadful

Made me LOL.
ack_bk's Avatar ack_bk 11:02 AM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by basementdweller1 View Post

well the empire would fit and the cabinet isn't an issue for my WAF, it is more of is the sound of the thing going to be unacceptable to my wife. i think i am leaning empire, i'll hold off a bit as the basement won't be ready for a sub until around late March so i'll order it early in march.

Since you are doing local pickup perhaps you can demo the Legend and Empire and discuss your situation with the Epik guys. Most of these ID companies are really helpful.

If you buy the Empire, I cannot imagine you would ever second guess and wonder what if..
basementdweller1's Avatar basementdweller1 11:49 AM 02-03-2012
That's what I'll do then. This is the moment where the budget is there and the money is flowing like water so you can justify the purchase. Later once the basement is "done" upgrading the sub will suddenly seem like a big deal rather than just a couple hundred more in a much bigger project.
ovrrdrive's Avatar ovrrdrive 02:51 PM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by basementdweller1 View Post

That's what I'll do then. This is the moment where the budget is there and the money is flowing like water so you can justify the purchase. Later once the basement is "done" upgrading the sub will suddenly seem like a big deal rather than just a couple hundred more in a much bigger project.

Great point... It's always easier to add a few hundred to what you're already looking to spend right now than it is to come up with the entire purchase price later down the road.

Always buy exactly what you want when you buy and don't look back with regret.
Sebastian1029's Avatar Sebastian1029 05:05 PM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovrrdrive View Post

Great point... It's always easier to add a few hundred to what you're already looking to spend right now than it is to come up with the entire purchase price later down the road.

Always buy exactly what you want when you buy and don't look back with regret.

Make sure you get what you like, or you'll be forced to like what you get.
qguy's Avatar qguy 05:55 PM 02-03-2012
Kinda like buying a car, you dont drive your Ferrari at 200 MPH everytime, but when you need that horsepower, you know its there and you dont have to worry thats its engine is going to blow.

Most if not all subs will play with less distortion when not pushed to the edge of its limits


Quote:
Originally Posted by basementdweller1 View Post

is it better to have a smaller sub driven louder or a big sub driven quieter (for the overall same volume level), which sounds better? Do you need to "open up" a sub to have it sound good... .


Auditor55's Avatar Auditor55 05:57 PM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Kinda like buying a car, you dont drive your Ferrari at 200 MPH everytime, but when you need that horsepower, you know its there and you dont have to worry thats its engine is going to blow.

Most if not all subs will play with less distortion when not pushed to the edge of its limits

A Ferrari is nothing but a 250K ego trip.
Auditor55's Avatar Auditor55 06:02 PM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I do think that subsonics are more of a guy thing. I have my high pass filters set to 20Hz. I really don't like subsonics all that much. They are often used to inspire dread, there's research on this, and I don't like feeling dread, its dreadful Going down to 20Hz is important to me though, perhaps it is subjective and arbitrary of me to pick that frequency.

I tried to inform some members about that infrasonic research. We know that the Nazis expiremented with the effects of infrasounds on humans.

You are correct, Infrasound is a guy thing, as in a man cave kind of way.
hometheatergeek's Avatar hometheatergeek 06:03 PM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

A Ferrari is nothing but a 250K ego trip.

Do you really feel the need to audit everyone that post on this site.
sputter1's Avatar sputter1 06:42 PM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

A Ferrari is nothing but a 250K ego trip.

It's also a damn fine car for those with the budget.
I'm getting the feeling your budget or rather lack of budget makes you sour on those that can afford more. ie, if you can't afford it then it's not worth having. PAPD?
brian6751's Avatar brian6751 06:53 PM 02-03-2012
If you can swing the Rhythmik FV15HP i would get that. Its the best sub you mentioned. I absolutely love mine.
mannoiaj's Avatar mannoiaj 07:46 PM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

If you can swing the Rhythmik FV15HP i would get that. Its the best sub you mentioned. I absolutely love mine.

How is it the best sub mentioned? Because you love it? Sub woofers from different companies exist, and they all try to be the best in their own niche.

These companies strive for customer satisfaction... w/o the customer they don't exist. I'm sure the Rhythmik is a great subwoofer and design as well as having lots' of proud owners. It's also a great recommendation I'm sure in its price range. That said, options exist for a reason. If it was the best of the lot for ALL reasons, there wouldn't be a "lot".
ack_bk's Avatar ack_bk 08:29 PM 02-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by mannoiaj View Post


How is it the best sub mentioned? Because you love it? Sub woofers from different companies exist, and they all try to be the best in their own niche.

These companies strive for customer satisfaction... w/o the customer they don't exist. I'm sure the Rhythmik is a great subwoofer and design as well as having lots' of proud owners. It's also a great recommendation I'm sure in its price range. That said, options exist for a reason. If it was the best of the lot for ALL reasons, there wouldn't be a "lot".

Agreed. Both Epik and Ryhtmik would be a fine choice and both have their strengths. Rici was nice enough to provide some metrics to analyze:


http://www.data-bass.com/systems

To me, the fact the OP can buy them locally gives the Epik an advantage.
lovinthehd's Avatar lovinthehd 12:55 AM 02-04-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Since you are doing local pickup perhaps you can demo the Legend and Empire and discuss your situation with the Epik guys. Most of these ID companies are really helpful.

If you buy the Empire, I cannot imagine you would ever second guess and wonder what if..

That would be a good idea, compare dual Legends to an Empire Or keep 'em all!
SaviorMachine's Avatar SaviorMachine 04:58 AM 02-05-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Kinda like buying a car, you dont drive your Ferrari at 200 MPH everytime, but when you need that horsepower, you know its there and you dont have to worry thats its engine is going to blow.

Most if not all subs will play with less distortion when not pushed to the edge of its limits

You know who else drove Ferraris?

Hitler.

While bumping infrasonic deep bass.

I seend it in books, which I misinterpret so you don't have to.

Ferraris and deep bass support fascism.

Earl Geddes is Jesus.

"Those grapes were probably sour anyway." -- Aesop
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