The epic which sub do I choose thread but I have valid questions... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

I am shopping for my sub based off this list:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...36#post9164136

I'm no audiphile so I wouldn't appreciate/notice imperfections like others would; I just want great sound to watch movies and listen to music on.

Also, I *think* I favor forward firing sub vs downward firing. And what is the difference between an 10 and 12" sub? Should I be looking at a 15" or do they not make them that big?

That said, I will answer the 7 stickied questions below:

1. Your budget: Around $500

2. Size requirements/limits. I can go a little bigger on the sub if need be; not a super tight space.

3. Room dimensions. I want this for a 25x25 room with a standard heigh ceiling; 10 ft I believe it is.

4. Primary uses. Home theater/playing games.

5. Listening habits. I often watch movies with the volume turned up, but not earth shattering.

6. Appearance requirements. Black.

7. Timeframe. Within a week or two.


These are the subs I'm considering in order of preference

1) Bic America VK 12 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...%20%2B%20Turbo
2) Bic H-100 http://www.amazon.com/Acoustech-H-10...8372849&sr=8-1
3) AV123 MFW-15
4) SVS PB12-NSD http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/pb12-nsd
5) Polk Audio PSW505 http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-12-...p_ob_e_title_1

Please guide me from here if you would.

Thank you
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post #2 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 08:54 AM
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That's an old list you linked to, and the AV123 MFW-15 is no longer available. There are other choices you might consider now. Also, you have a very large room, and only the SVS you have listed will come close to performing in it.

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post #3 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

That's an old list you linked to, and the AV123 MFW-15 is no longer available. There are other choices you might consider now. Also, you have a very large room, and only the SVS you have listed will come close to performing in it.

Mind if I ask why so many people say that BIC is an awesome sub? If I remember one of the amazon sub reviews says its plenty adequate in his 25x25 room.

Is there a spec I should look for or something that defines why sub A is better than sub B?
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post #4 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 10:24 AM
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I 2nd the SVS being the best of that lot. However, given your situation one of the first subs I'd look at is the Rythmik FV12. The HSU VTF-2 comes to mind as well, but with shipping that's probably closer to $600 than $500. Same with the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus; with shipping that might exceed your budget. The Sunfire SDS12 is close to your price point as well, along with the Velodyne SC-12. The Energy VSW10 is being offered for quite a discount at Vanns right now, so there are a few that might fit the bill.

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post #5 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 10:28 AM
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I have the Mirage Prestige S10 (equivalent of the Energy VSW10), Jim, and I like it with my PC setup for music, but it doesn't work very well for primarily HT use. The frequency response rolls off too fast below 30hz in my experience, and there was some review data that indicated that as well (sorry, I don't remember the link). I think many of the other suggestions you made will work much better

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post #6 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I 2nd the SVS being the best of that lot. However, given your situation one of the first subs I'd look at is the Rythmik FV12. The HSU VTF-2 comes to mind as well, but with shipping that's probably closer to $600 than $500. Same with the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus; with shipping that might exceed your budget. The Sunfire SDS12 is close to your price point as well, along with the Velodyne SC-12. The Energy VSW10 is being offered for quite a discount at Vanns right now, so there are a few that might fit the bill.

So many choices lol but how do I choose WHICH is right? I can't hear these so am looking for experience and/or Specs: IE: You want xx watts per square foot or something that can help me make a sensible choice for buying this.

Thank you all for your help/replies.
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post #7 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozorowsky View Post

So many choices lol but how do I choose WHICH is right? I can't hear these so am looking for experience and/or Specs: IE: You want xx watts per square foot or something that can help me make a sensible choice for buying this.

There really isn't a "template", per se, so about all we can do is offer options and advice. The decision has to come from you though.

A 25x25x10 room is over 6200 cubic feet, which is no small space to fill. Frankly I think any $500 subwoofer is going to struggle trying to do that. Two of them would be far better, and produce a more even sound distribution, but I realize that's not within the realm of possibility. Just be aware that you may be taxing the subwoofer, whichever you ultimately decide upon.

Perhaps the best way to approach it is think of what your maximum dollar outlay can be, and then look for subs that are right around your amount. There are times when that's not the most ideal way of approaching it, but it can help minimize how overwhelmed you end up feeling while going through the process.

As I mentioned, the first place I'd be going is the FV12. Others will probably chime in with there opinions as well, so you'll more then likely get even more choices. Speaking of that... a couple of others just came to me; the CraigSUB 10.2 and Epik Legend.

See, I told you more options would be forthcoming.

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post #8 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I have the Mirage Prestige S10 (equivalent of the Energy VSW10), Jim, and I like it with my PC setup for music, but it doesn't work very well for primarily HT use.

Fair enough. I've never heard it myself, I was just going off what I've read. Interesting dichotomy though; you'd think a sub with an MSRP that high would be good at HT too. Perhaps that's why Energy is going away. Or is it Mirage? I have a hard time keeping track of who's buying whom, and what brands are being shut down.

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post #9 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 11:29 AM
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1.) Your budget is kinda low for that size room to realize any substantial gain.
2.)Large subs are usually cheaper than mega watt cubes and perform better most of the time IMO.
3.)6225sqft. Is a lot to fill and even harder if this is open to other rooms.
4.)A good sub will work for all modes.
5.)It will probably take a sub closer to 800.00 to accomplish this.
6.)Most of them are available in different finishes.
7.)About a week turnaround for most.

I would even place a call to the ID brands for consultation I like both HSU and SVS there are others that are probably just as good I just had great service with those two I mentioned.
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post #10 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Fair enough. I've never heard it myself, I was just going off what I've read. Interesting dichotomy though; you'd think a sub with an MSRP that high would be good at HT too. Perhaps that's why Energy is going away. Or is it Mirage? I have a hard time keeping track of who's buying whom, and what brands are being shut down.

I figured you probably hadn't heard it since it's over $300 For music on my PC setup with the RC-10s, HK 3390, and Xonar Essence STX audio card, it sounds very good.

But for HT, it just doesn't go low enough. .peace. recently posted somewhere in the subwoofer forum that he found it underwhelming for HT, too, and he found somewhere that the tuning point was around 30hz. Then recently FieldingMelish in the Energy thread talked about how it just didn't compare at all to his Outlaw. I also know that Warpdrive has recommended the S10.3 over the Mirage Prestige S10 because of the better low end.

What doesn't make sense to me is that Energy doesn't have a 12" sub to bundle with their towers. Vanns was giving away the VSW10 with Vertias 6.3 5.1 packages. But what's the point, other than adding in bass for the center and the surrounds since the Veritas towers go down into the low 30hz range? I guess since it's Audiovox owning Klipsch, Mirage, Prestige and Jamo now, one is supposed to go buy a Klipsch sub for HT?

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post #11 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ozorowsky View Post

And what is the difference between an 10 and 12" sub? Should I be looking at a 15" or do they not make them that big?

The larger the driver the more air it can push, and the diameter isn't the whole story, the overall surface area percentage grows more with larger diameters than just comparing the difference between diameters. You had a 15" in your list in the defunct AVR sub.

I'd definitely be looking at bigger drivers for your size room and up the budget, maybe look at dual subs to help fill it and give you better options for uniform bass throughout the room. I have an Epik Empire, a dual 15" opposed design in a sealed cabinet. Great sub for music and movies, and while my room is maybe 2/3rd the volume of yours, the Empire does a good job in it (but want another). There is also a little brother, a dual 12" model called the Legend and two of those might be just what you need in your room if not dual Empires :0

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post #12 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I figured you probably hadn't heard it since it's over $300

Don't let the title fool ya... I also reviewed the XTZ 99 W10.16, and co-designed the EbenLee ELA-3 (both of which I own as well). And, if you follow the Budget Subwoofers thread, you'll see I'm contemplating moving up to a $350 sub for my next review, so I have a better ear than you surmise!

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post #13 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Don't let the title fool ya... I also reviewed the XTZ 99 W10.16, and co-designed the EbenLee ELA-3 (both of which I own as well). And, if you follow the Budget Subwoofers thread, you'll see I'm contemplating moving up to a $350 sub for my next review, so I have a better ear than you surmise!

How about a summer road show? Stop by houses of people who have budget subs, and audition them. Bring a couple of "reference" budget subs with you for comparison. Take a camera person with you, and we can set you up with a YouTube channel

(I think I might have been on the computer too long today )

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post #14 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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That Sunfire SDS12 sounds like a good sub.

What is the general concensus of that sub?

I don't want to spend nearly $800 on the SVS if I don't have to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I 2nd the SVS being the best of that lot. However, given your situation one of the first subs I'd look at is the Rythmik FV12. The HSU VTF-2 comes to mind as well, but with shipping that's probably closer to $600 than $500. Same with the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus; with shipping that might exceed your budget. The Sunfire SDS12 is close to your price point as well, along with the Velodyne SC-12. The Energy VSW10 is being offered for quite a discount at Vanns right now, so there are a few that might fit the bill.

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post #15 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 02:51 PM
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This review shows the Sunfire to be pretty weak in the 30hz and below range. It's not comparable to the SVS for HT use. If you are determined to stay around $500, I'd probably go with the PA-150 instead because it has more output (see the data in this table).

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post #16 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

(I think I might have been on the computer too long today )

Me thinks so too.

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post #17 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozorowsky View Post

That Sunfire SDS12 sounds like a good sub.

What is the general concensus of that sub?

I don't want to spend nearly $800 on the SVS if I don't have to.

So your motive is more about price point rather than what you need in your room?

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post #18 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ozorowsky View Post

I don't want to spend nearly $800 on the SVS if I don't have to.

The Rythmik FV12 would probably be a better choice then the SVS, given your circumstances. It's cheaper to boot.

Another one to consider is the XTZ 99 W12.16. I did a review of the smaller 99 W10.16 a short while back. I was so impressed with it I ended up buying it (which I haven't done with any of the other units I've evaluated - they were all sent back). My guess is the 12" sub is a better version of the 10" variant.

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post #19 of 25 Old 02-04-2012, 07:54 PM
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I was recommended this 15" which it sounds like you might need two of them, but it wouldn't hurt to try one for starters.

http://www.acousticsounddesign.com/c...pid=1825&sc=28

I heard it packs a little more punch than the PL-200 and for the price, that thing gets rave reviews.

Sounds like you are on a budget like me.
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post #20 of 25 Old 02-05-2012, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post

I was recommended this 15" which it sounds like you might need two of them, but it wouldn't hurt to try one for starters.

http://www.acousticsounddesign.com/c...pid=1825&sc=28

I heard it packs a little more punch than the PL-200 and for the price, that thing gets rave reviews.

Sounds like you are on a budget like me.

That's the PA-150 that I referred to above. If you look at the table I linked to, you'll see that the max SPL output at various frequency ranges is available for both it and the PL-200. The PA-150 does have a little more output.

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post #21 of 25 Old 02-09-2012, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

That's the PA-150 that I referred to above. If you look at the table I linked to, you'll see that the max SPL output at various frequency ranges is available for both it and the PL-200. The PA-150 does have a little more output.

Definitely looks like it to me. IT might be TOO much for my room. 23x11x8

Tough decision. I guess it'd be better to have too much than too little .
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post #22 of 25 Old 02-09-2012, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post

Definitely looks like it to me. IT might be TOO much for my room. 23x11x8

I would actually contend otherwise; to me it doesn't seem like that would be overkill, but I suppose it depends upon what you're looking to achieve. For HT though I think you won't find the PA-150 too much, given your room size.

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post #23 of 25 Old 02-09-2012, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post

Definitely looks like it to me. IT might be TOO much for my room. 23x11x8

Tough decision. I guess it'd be better to have too much than too little .

Get the SVS. It will work very well in a room that size. The trouble with buying a sub is that there is no upper limit. I started looking for one at around $500 and now am getting ready to purchase one for $1200. Get the SVS before some fool, like me, tries to upgrade you to an even more expensive one.
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post #24 of 25 Old 02-09-2012, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post

Definitely looks like it to me. IT might be TOO much for my room. 23x11x8

Tough decision. I guess it'd be better to have too much than too little .

I just read the "Best Price" thread. You already talked yourself into it

A sub is never too much for a room; it merely "kicks ass" in that room

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post #25 of 25 Old 02-09-2012, 09:03 PM
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I am just looking for an accurate sub, musical and movie worthy, can still hit the lows and has good sound quality. Sounds like to me the PA-150 has that from the reviews I have read. I think it might be the best bang for your dollar. We will see.
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