What sub, SVS vs Paradigm - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 44 Old 03-06-2012, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TL2009 View Post

Had a listen to a Monitor Sub 12 on the weekend. Nice tight little sub. Comparible to a DSP-3100 (10" ported) for loudness, but much more accurate, goes lower and it's not as boomy. Explosions had a good rumble feeling although not leg shaking. Bullets hitting the tarmack felt like someone was poking you. Listening to music, it's certainly not a one note sub. Didn't have access to a SVS sub but compared it to a klipsch SW112B (12" ported). I know it's no SVS PB12... Anyways it moved more air but didn't have near the depth and detail. I think you'd trully have to compare a SVS SB12 to a Monitor Sub 12.

The Sub 12 generates the kind of bass you'd appreciate more and more over time, rather than becoming bored with the one note boom many subs give you. You shouldn't have any regrets, although the SVS SB12 is probably a comparable sub the SVS PB12 is a totally different animal. I think you made a good choice.

I 100% agree with this.

After more time getting the setup dialed in and the sub broken in; I am very, and continually, impressed with the overall sound quality from this sub, it's not the loudest or deepest sub on the market, although no slouch. But IMO at its price point (if you can get a reasonable discount from your dealer) combined with the PBK (assuming your AVR doesnt have the ability to EQ a sub) its a decent value on the market, moreso when cross border shipping needs to be factored in. And yes it has given me several "involuntary grins".
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post #32 of 44 Old 03-06-2012, 11:57 AM
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SV Sub

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post #33 of 44 Old 03-18-2012, 11:31 AM
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Plasma_fan, I've had a similar situation with my new Sub 12. I'm no professional, but this is my experience. I auditioned the 8, 10, both of which I found very impressive for small sealed subs. I went with the 12 for added output, on a bit of a whim without listening.

In my room, I must say that I was immediately unimpressed with my purchase. I don't have a PBK, but I tested with sweep and constant tones 15hz-125hz. Out of the box, this is the most "finnicky" sub I've ever had in terms of calibration and placement. Once dialed in and placed, it finally started to come together.

After even a few hours of break-in, messing around with settings and placement, I've changed my mind completely. This sub is killer! While it may be partly "psycho-aural" or whatever, I really like this subwoofer. I'm considering a PBK just to run numbers on it, because I too noticed that tones 25Hz and below (although inaudible REALLY deep) are hitting with a palpable authority not noticed on day one. I imagine the PBK will really help in getting the Sub 12 set up.

Conclusion: The Sub 12 is like a new girlfriend who's personality you really like, she's in shape and looks good, but doesn't show her true colors until you spend a lot of time with her and you suddenly fall in love.

This sub needs some TLC and time before final judgement, which I expect may result in some less than stellar upcoming reviews. Afterall, it is a "compact," sealed cabinet, so you won't get the instant gratification like you do from larger ported subs. It does, however, perform very accurately and MUCH deeper than I ever expected after getting proper settings dailed in. To all of those in search of similar subs, especially internet direct guys, give this series a shot. Even after all of the post production mark ups, I'm pretty confident the Sub 12 rivals anything out there in its price range.
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post #34 of 44 Old 03-19-2012, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CCGDG View Post

Plasma_fan, I've had a similar situation with my new Sub 12. I'm no professional, but this is my experience. I auditioned the 8, 10, both of which I found very impressive for small sealed subs. I went with the 12 for added output, on a bit of a whim without listening.

In my room, I must say that I was immediately unimpressed with my purchase. I don't have a PBK, but I tested with sweep and constant tones 15hz-125hz. Out of the box, this is the most "finnicky" sub I've ever had in terms of calibration and placement. Once dialed in and placed, it finally started to come together.

After even a few hours of break-in, messing around with settings and placement, I've changed my mind completely. This sub is killer! While it may be partly "psycho-aural" or whatever, I really like this subwoofer. I'm considering a PBK just to run numbers on it, because I too noticed that tones 25Hz and below (although inaudible REALLY deep) are hitting with a palpable authority not noticed on day one. I imagine the PBK will really help in getting the Sub 12 set up.

Conclusion: The Sub 12 is like a new girlfriend who's personality you really like, she's in shape and looks good, but doesn't show her true colors until you spend a lot of time with her and you suddenly fall in love.

This sub needs some TLC and time before final judgement, which I expect may result in some less than stellar upcoming reviews. Afterall, it is a "compact," sealed cabinet, so you won't get the instant gratification like you do from larger ported subs. It does, however, perform very accurately and MUCH deeper than I ever expected after getting proper settings dailed in. To all of those in search of similar subs, especially internet direct guys, give this series a shot. Even after all of the post production mark ups, I'm pretty confident the Sub 12 rivals anything out there in its price range.

Glad to her you like her too. What do you run for room correction now? If nothing I REALLY reccomend the PBK, for $100 its a dramatic improvement in sound quality from the sub. And with some fiddling the mic works well with REW.

Ive finally ran some sweeps with REW, the PBK graph is off a little in comparison. With the REW graphs the subs response drops fast below 18Hz (expected), 18-22hz is down about 5dB, 22-100 Hz is nice and flat (or very close anyways). Compared to the PBK shows ~2dB drop around 22hz and dont get so see much below...
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post #35 of 44 Old 03-19-2012, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

Ive finally ran some sweeps with REW, the PBK graph is off a little in comparison. With the REW graphs the subs response drops fast below 18Hz (expected), 18-22hz is down about 5dB, 22-100 Hz is nice and flat (or very close anyways). Compared to the PBK shows ~2dB drop around 22hz and dont get so see much below...

Would you be able to post the REW graph as a comparison?

Since you have REW, you can play increasingly louder sweeps to see the point where the sub starts to compress. It's well that your sub can play 20-22 Hz @ 80dB (going by the PBK graph) but can it play those frequencies @ 85dB or 90dB, etc...
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post #36 of 44 Old 03-20-2012, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

Glad to her you like her too. What do you run for room correction now? If nothing I REALLY reccomend the PBK, for $100 its a dramatic improvement in sound quality from the sub. And with some fiddling the mic works well with REW.

Just my ears, downloaded sweeps/tones on repeat and a simple sub crawl. Cheap, I know, but it seemed to work. I forgot to mention that this room was full of nulls and peaks with my older PS-1000, which is a bandpass/rear ported sub. I ended up placing the Sub 12 on the right wall about 1/3 the distance from my mains to my listening position, and it just so happened to come together. I plan to pick up the PBK/REW to see how things turn out when I place it back where I'd like it and will report back. Thanks for all of the good info!
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post #37 of 44 Old 04-22-2014, 03:50 PM
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Considering buying 2 monitor 12's to cover a huge room. Does the PBK do a good job of making the subs play well together? My room is really big 4-5kcu ft.

I feel strongly about having room correction with 2 Subs.

Other option is new receiver Denon x4000 with sub ed ht and 2 GE FF 4's

Or keep receiver (onkyo tx-nr 818)and get monitor 12 x 2 with PBK. I feel like GE's might have greater output but the monitor 12's will sound better:

3rd option is SVS SB13U and keep onkyo.

Help????
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post #38 of 44 Old 04-22-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lees23 View Post

Considering buying 2 monitor 12's to cover a huge room. Does the PBK do a good job of making the subs play well together? My room is really big 4-5kcu ft.

I feel strongly about having room correction with 2 Subs.

Other option is new receiver Denon x4000 with sub ed ht and 2 GE FF 4's

Or keep receiver (onkyo tx-nr 818)and get monitor 12 x 2. I feel like GE's might have greater output but the monitor 12's will sound better:

3rd option is SVS SB13U and keep onkyo.

Help????

4th option get FF5 and keep $700-1400, keep receiver and upgrade to duals FF5's later if needed.

5th option ML Dynamo 1500.

I have been doing this for months and it's driving me crazy.
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post #39 of 44 Old 05-01-2014, 08:23 AM
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Has anyone heard both the Paradigm Monitor SUB 12 and the Paradigm Seismic 110? I am torn between those two. I have a SUB 8 in my computer room and I *LOVE* that thing. Such a perfect sub for a small 2.1 computer speaker system, loads of power and a tiny footprint. Paradigm tells me the Seismic 110 is better suited to a large room than the Monitor SUB12 but I would be interested in more opinions. I'd be putting it in a much larger, open living room in a 2.1 or 3.1 configuration for casual TV/movie watching. Don't need to shake the whole building, but I want to add some punch for sure.

As for the PBK, I cannot recommend it enough. It is a night and day difference with both my setups (computer room & dedicated HT), and I flat out will never buy a subwoofer unless it has room correction at least as good as PBK.
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post #40 of 44 Old 05-01-2014, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post

Has anyone heard both the Paradigm Monitor SUB 12 and the Paradigm Seismic 110? I am torn between those two. I have a SUB 8 in my computer room and I *LOVE* that thing. Such a perfect sub for a small 2.1 computer speaker system, loads of power and a tiny footprint. Paradigm tells me the Seismic 110 is better suited to a large room than the Monitor SUB12 but I would be interested in more opinions. I'd be putting it in a much larger, open living room in a 2.1 or 3.1 configuration for casual TV/movie watching. Don't need to shake the whole building, but I want to add some punch for sure.

As for the PBK, I cannot recommend it enough. It is a night and day difference with both my setups (computer room & dedicated HT), and I flat out will never buy a subwoofer unless it has room correction at least as good as PBK.
I would strongly suggest taking a look at what PSA has to offer. I looked at EVERYTHING and ended up buying two PSA XS15's. The founder of PSA is actually from SVS. I listened to the monitor 12 and it is a nice sub. Was extremely impressed with the output but it's a small, sealed 12. I would have gone with 2 12's if I bought the paradigm but ended up getting 2 sealed 15's from PSA for 500 less. Their subs and cabinets are extremely well built(from what I read as I haven't received my sub yet). They also just upgraded to more power and the Lab 15 driver.
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post #41 of 44 Old 05-01-2014, 08:49 AM
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To add to the above comment: The PSA subs don't come with built-in room correction capabilities, but that can be addressed with:
- a miniDSP ($105);
- a UMIK-1 mic ($75); and
- REW software (free).
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post #42 of 44 Old 05-01-2014, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lees23 View Post

I would strongly suggest taking a look at what PSA has to offer. I looked at EVERYTHING and ended up buying two PSA XS15's. The founder of PSA is actually from SVS. I listened to the monitor 12 and it is a nice sub. Was extremely impressed with the output but it's a small, sealed 12. I would have gone with 2 12's if I bought the paradigm but ended up getting 2 sealed 15's from PSA for 500 less. Their subs and cabinets are extremely well built(from what I read as I haven't received my sub yet). They also just upgraded to more power and the Lab 15 driver.

I will have a look. Unfortunately I've had a bad experience with ID subs (SVS) in the past and while their customer service was amazing, I am extremely hesitant to go the ID route again. I also would rather not invest in an entirely new room correction system either.

It's hard to find info on the Seismic 110. The few who have them seem to absolutely love it, the few professional reviews I've found all love it, but not a lot of people seem to have the sub. Paradigm said the Seismic 110 is more powerful than the SUB12, but I like the footprint/look of the SUB12 and it has a wireless receiver built in which is a big plus for my room. I can always get an aftermarket wireless system, but Paradigm's seems to work very well.
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post #43 of 44 Old 05-01-2014, 09:23 AM
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Understand not wanting to go that route then. I am curious what happened, care to share?
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post #44 of 44 Old 05-01-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by lees23 View Post

Understand not wanting to go that route then. I am curious what happened, care to share?

Sure. Wasn't a huge deal, I just wasn't impressed with their product in the rooms I tested it in compared to other subs, or on it's own. After a ton of research, and so many people on these forums recommending ID subs, I ordered a SVS PC-12 Plus, which is the large, higher end cylinder sub. I tested it in identical conditions against 3 Paradigm subs, a mixture of sealed and ported, and I was not impressed. Even the tiny Paradigm Ultracube 10 matched or outperformed it in my large-ish test room. I compared it to a 14 year old Paradigm Servo 15v1, a Paradigm Studio SUB12, and a Paradigm Ultracube 10. I ran Audyssey on each sub before switching to the next test subject. I did not run PBK, to keep the playing field even (PBK is so good it's not even fair if the other sub isn't calibrated with a similar EQ). I watched various scenes from the Iron Man blu-ray, Master and Commander blu-ray (lots of deep punchy bass in that one with the canon scenes), and a bunch of bass-heavy music. The SVS always seemed to be over worked, sounding "muddy", making disturbing clunking noises and lots of port chuffing noises that were clearly audible during the movie. The other subs provided that nice tight, visceral chest slam to varying degrees without sounding overworked (less on the smaller subs obviously). Thinking I got a defective sub, I contacted SVS who walked me through various tests, and after confirming the driver was not damaged or defective, and my settings were correct, they eventually sent me an entirely new control board to rule out anything else. Unfortunately nothing changed after the new control board was installed, and all the original issues were still present. I decided to return the sub, and spent the extra $400 on the Paradigm SUB12 which was a *huge* step up in my opinion, both aesthetically and especially on the performance front. I would have also gone with the much cheaper and smaller Ultracube 10 or 12 over the PC12 Plus based on my experience. I have nothing but good things to say about SVS customer service, they were very helpful and paid for the return shipping. I feel like $1200 CAD was way too much to ask for that sub, especially since the price/performance ratio of the ID subs are supposed to be great - I feel like $600-700 CAD would have been a price more in line with it's performance, especially for something so physically massive.

Anyway, after that experience I generally prefer to buy from large, established companies (I believe Paradigm has one of the best, if not the best, testing facility in the world for all things audio), and from a brick & mortar store where I don't have to deal with shipping or wait times. Heavy discounts are often available, putting prices roughly in line with the ID stuff. That's just my experience, I realize there are lots of happy ID owners out there, but given my personal experience (spent over 6 months auditioning various speakers/subs) and the fact that you can only find glowing professional reviews for Paradigm stuff, I am continually impressed with their offerings. They do seem to be raising their MSRP's over the years, and even though their price/performance ratio is known to be outstanding, I definitely bank on that standard ~20-25% discount whenever I need to buy more HT stuff biggrin.gif.

So now that I need a compact, powerful, sub for my living room (dedicated HT and computer room systems are complete), I am naturally looking to Paradigm once again. I own the PBK already, which makes things nice and easy on that front. Just trying to decide between a Monitor SUB12 and a Seismic 110 (AKA the "bulldog" haha).
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