What sub, SVS vs Paradigm - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Another suggestion thread...

Room is 14*20*7.5, 2100 cubic feet, has open stairs, closed otherwise. Seating area is 12x12

Right now im deciding between a SVS PB12-NSD, Paradigm Monitor SUB12 and DSP-3200. Most of the ID company delivery quotes put them out of the running, im out of the USA.

Cost wise with the delivery I will need to pay, the SVS and the 3200 are about the same, and the Monitor SUB is about 200 more... Spec wise the monitor sub12 should dig deeper than both, I realize the total output might be a little limited, but will it be too limited for my room?

I like the paradigm subs because of the PBK room correction, thats factoring heavily for me, my reciever cant EQ the LFE. I would prefer the sub EQ over a sub crawl and random placement in the room.

Im looking for sound quality over quantity, I dont get the chance to turn things up to 11 often. TV/movies is probably 70% of actual use but I value music sound quality more.
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post #2 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

Most of the ID company delivery quotes put them out of the running, im out of the USA.

Where are you located then?

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post #3 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Live in canada, shipping adds around 200+ to the price of a typical ID sub, takes their advantage away. SVS has a canadian distributor.

Paradigm is the cheapest way to get a sub eq that I know of.

I think the question really is if a small box sealed 12" can work well in a 2100 cubic foot room.
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post #4 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 01:56 PM
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Given the size of your room I suspect anyone of the subs you mentioned would probably do quite well (note: the DSP-3200 is bass reflex, not acoustic suspension, so it isn't a sealed design). It honestly doesn't appear as though any of them would be a bad choice.

Another company to check out is XTZ. The NA distribution center in Chicago might deliver to Canada. I own the 99 W10.16, and I can personally attest to their quality (construction and sound).

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post #5 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

Another suggestion thread...

Room is 14*20*7.5, 2100 cubic feet, has open stairs, closed otherwise. Seating area is 12x12

Right now im deciding between a SVS PB12-NSD, Paradigm Monitor SUB12 and DSP-3200. Most of the ID company delivery quotes put them out of the running, im out of the USA.

Cost wise with the delivery I will need to pay, the SVS and the 3200 are about the same, and the Monitor SUB is about 200 more... Spec wise the monitor sub12 should dig deeper than both, I realize the total output might be a little limited, but will it be too limited for my room?

I like the paradigm subs because of the PBK room correction, thats factoring heavily for me, my reciever cant EQ the LFE. I would prefer the sub EQ over a sub crawl and random placement in the room.

Im looking for sound quality over quantity, I dont get the chance to turn things up to 11 often. TV/movies is probably 70% of actual use but I value music sound quality more.

Do you really mean the ported PB-12 NSD or the smaller sealed SB-12NSD?

Of all the subs mentioned the SVS PB-12 NSD will crush the others. None of the small, inexpensive sealed subs will do full justice to the Ultra Low frequencies, those below about 32Hz.

Here is a professional test of the DSP-3200. The Perfect Bass Kit really works.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...ystem?page=0,2

Just don't expect high output below about 32 hz.

With regard to the XTC, even the 12 inch version (99 W.12 16) in Maximum Extension was down 3 db at 31.5 Hz in professional testing.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...extension.html

The real champ is the SVS PB-12 NSD.

http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/new-pb...black-p-6.html

The SVS PB-12 NSD is in another class from the others mentioned by you and others. Later on you can add an AntiMode 8033 which ships internationally.
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post #6 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 02:34 PM
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Wow, that is the size of my room and I would not think a small 12 would be enough. I guess my goals are different.

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post #7 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I meant the svs sb12!
Saw that review on the dsp 3200, it actually is what got me looking elsewhere. it's my perceived notion that I need good impact down to 20hz and the 3200 seems to lack that. While I can't find any reviews on the monitor sub 12 yet a few impressions were positive, and the tech is supposed to be trickle down from the studio line which digs deep and everyone seems to love.

@ MKtheatre, every ones needs are different. My son is 14 months old and sleeps above the theatre room, it's rare the receiver gets turned up past -25... But the 8 inch budget "sub" I have been running isn't cutting it anymore, well it never did.
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post #8 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

Yes, I meant the svs sb12!
Saw that review on the dsp 3200, it actually is what got me looking elsewhere. it's my perceived notion that I need good impact down to 20hz and the 3200 seems to lack that. While I can't find any reviews on the monitor sub 12 yet a few impressions were positive, and the tech is supposed to be trickle down from the studio line which digs deep and everyone seems to love.

@ MKtheatre, every ones needs are different. My son is 14 months old and sleeps above the theatre room, it's rare the receiver gets turned up past -25... But the 8 inch budget "sub" I have been running isn't cutting it anymore, well it never did.

I am just messing with you, I have 3 kids with one 7 months old and why I built a dedicated room. SVS makes great subs.

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post #9 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I a,m just messing with you, I have 3 kids with one 7 months old and why I built a dedicated room. SVS makes great subs.

No problem. The next house will hopefully have a better layout for a more dedicated and isolated room.

Pretty sure monitor sub 12 is the way I'm going. I kinda like trying something new.
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post #10 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 04:00 PM
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The PBK costs extra, it does not come with the 3200 unless something has changed in the last 6 months.
I was looking at the DSP series and that review pushed me away ... they may sound fine but I wanted 20Hz output.

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post #11 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

The PBK costs extra, it does not come with the 3200 unless something has changed in the last 6 months.

The PBK is $300 extra (USA). Better spent on the SVS PB-12 NSD, it will crush the Paradigms mentioned. You would have to move all the way up to the Paradigm Studio 12 to equal the SVS PB-12 NSD...
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post #12 of 47 Old 02-08-2012, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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PBK has dropped price to $100. This is why the Paradigm subs are so attractive to me, any other way that I know to get a sub EQ will cost $400-600.

The monitor sub 12 + PBK is cheaper than the SVS PB12 + AntiMode 8033 (or Audyssey). Granted its maximum output is probably crippled next to a PB12 Im hoping at my normal (and a little above) listening levels I will be happy
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post #13 of 47 Old 02-09-2012, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

PBK has dropped price to $100. This is why the Paradigm subs are so attractive to me, any other way that I know to get a sub EQ will cost $400-600.

The monitor sub 12 + PBK is cheaper than the SVS PB12 + AntiMode 8033 (or Audyssey). Granted its maximum output is probably crippled next to a PB12 Im hoping at my normal (and a little above) listening levels I will be happy

Glad to hear the PBK has dropped to $100. Still, a small sealed box like the Monitor 12 is going to have a hard time with the Ultra Low Bass as defined in CEA 2010 as 20Hz - 31.5Hz. Above 32Hz, the Monitor 12 will do fairly well, however, the SVS PB-12 NSD will have far more output from 20hz to 32 Hz. The SVS PB-12 NSD is simply in another class from the small sealed Paradigms and the small sealed SVS SB-12 NSD.

If you don't mind essentially sacrificing the Ultra Low Bass, the Paradigm should satisfy you.
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post #14 of 47 Old 02-09-2012, 04:20 PM
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I have no experience with these, but here are some relatively affordable velos with eq.

http://velodyne.com/subwoofers/shop-...ax-series.html

http://velodyne.com/subwoofers/shop-...um-series.html

That said I'd love to have a Paradigm sub 12 or 15.
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post #15 of 47 Old 02-28-2012, 08:30 PM
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I spoke with a Paradigm tech and asked for some numbers on the Monitor Sub 12. He gave me the following:
"The frequency response specs are indicated at -3db Din 45/500, which is average useable bass in an average listening room. +/- 2db is probably just over 20hz when -3db is specked at 15-20hz."

He also indicated several reviewers have the subs and are in the process of reviewing them. I found this partial review at soundstageexperience.com under: Paradigm Series 7 Monitor 11 / Center 3 / Surround 3 / Sub 12 Home-Theater Speaker System

Mind, that the site is sponsored by Paradigm.
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post #16 of 47 Old 02-28-2012, 09:25 PM
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I'd take Paradigms purported specs with a grain of salt... if even that. Their specs for their 3400, as an example, were wildly exaggerated/inaccurate with an 'in-room din 45 500 -3dB @ 19Hz' response. Even -15dB would be generous to it's actual response at 19Hz.

Just saying.. ;p
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post #17 of 47 Old 02-29-2012, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I did go with the monitor sub12. Ive done basic setup, and an initial PBK. The sub has met my expectations but fell short of my hopes...

According to my cell phone spl meter, the PBK charts, and my ears the sub12 really starts to work well around 25Hz, maybe a little before. But a long cry off the 16Hz advertized, however right in line with other good quality small box sealed 12"ers and I more or less expected this, but did hope for "real" sub 20Hz extension. The sound quality is great, the volume is there, the slam is ok but not fantastic. Explosions and other loud LFE effects in movies give an ok rumble, however to get a good feeling from the bass in music the volume needs to be cranked, keeping in mind i listen to ZERO electronic music. Im sure in a slightly smaller room this sub would come alive in that regard. I also only have the gain set to about the 10:30 position, so there is more in the sub.

Next steps will be to work on dialing things in a little better, and enjoy untill the upgrade urge strikes again and at that point probably step into a true big boy sub... Or a second monitor sub12, see how I like it given some time.
I may move the sub to the better corner in the room, that corner gives a smoother and bigger gain but can sometimes sound localized however the PBK may help in that regard. That corner MAY help with a little more extension and slam, but not expecting it.
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post #18 of 47 Old 02-29-2012, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

I did go with the monitor sub12. Ive done basic setup, and an initial PBK. The sub has met my expectations but fell short of my hopes...

According to my cell phone spl meter, the PBK charts, and my ears the sub12 really starts to work well around 25Hz, maybe a little before. But a long cry off the 16Hz advertized, however right in line with other good quality small box sealed 12"ers and I more or less expected this, but did hope for "real" sub 20Hz extension.

It's gotten to the point that you can't trust any of the numbers a manufacturer uses, because there are so many different ways to spin them. Maybe as a reference, but for certain they should be taken with a dose of skepticism.

While you may never get subterranean frequencies, tuning and placement can go a long way towards improving things. So can break-in; it sounds as though the sub is fairly new. If so, time may be your ally as well. Give it 15-20 hours more and you might find the sound gets better.

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post #19 of 47 Old 02-29-2012, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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While you may never get subterranean frequencies, tuning and placement can go a long way towards improving things. So can break-in; it sounds as though the sub is fairly new. If so, time may be your ally as well. Give it 15-20 hours more and you might find the sound gets better.

I should really say for my intended use Im not at all unhappy with this sub, it fits the bill that I gave.

I didnt really consider longer breakin, the sub might have 15 hours of use right now. There was a noticable improvement after the first few hours of use, ill be happy to reevaluate after another week or two.

When picking placement I actually moved the sub around the room rather than the traditional sub crawl, I think it weighs in around 40-50lbs so its easy enough to move. I sat in the MLP with the test tones a note pad and my cell phone spl meter... In the 2 premium corners I was easily able to localize the sub (they are to the direct left and right of the couch). It then occured to me a day later that I could have used the PBK to do all these readings, I would have saved lots of time, been more accurate, and been able to apply the correction in each location to see if it helped with the localization. So in any case I know I can get more out of some added setup time.

Looking at the PBK graph, in my room the -3db point is at 20hz and 150hz, so actually not that shabby. However it does look like the trend will drop like a rock below 20Hz, but the PBK doesnt display below 20.
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post #20 of 47 Old 02-29-2012, 01:19 PM
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Would seem the Paradigm Tech was giving reasonable numbers then.

PBK again after break-in period.
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post #21 of 47 Old 02-29-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

Looking at the PBK graph, in my room the -3db point is at 20hz and 150hz, so actually not that shabby. However it does look like the trend will drop like a rock below 20Hz, but the PBK doesnt display below 20.

Not too shabby? Being down only 3dB at 20Hz for a tiny, acoustic suspension subwoofer is very good (depending upon the output level, of course). Since Paradigm is stating the bottom end is 16Hz -- which I assume included projected room gain -- they aren't too far off.

BTW, I see why it would be so easy to move around - it only weighs 33 lbs. You should be able to palm that thing...

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post #22 of 47 Old 03-01-2012, 12:52 PM
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Mixed messages. I think I need to hear this puppy.
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post #23 of 47 Old 03-02-2012, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Did some playing last night, moved the sucker around the room with the PBK running. Was able to get a totally flat response from 20Hz on up to about 100Hz. Looks like I might be achieving paradigms claimed 16Hz, pretty cool.

Ive still got playing to do and will likely need to run the room correction on the rest of the system again, things sound slightly out of whack. And the sub is still sounding localized, however its very subtle after the PBK and adjusting the speaker distance for the sub. Any suggestions here???
LL
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post #24 of 47 Old 03-02-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

Did some playing last night, moved the sucker around the room with the PBK running. Was able to get a totally flat response from 20Hz on up to about 100Hz. Looks like I might be achieving paradigms claimed 16Hz, pretty cool.

Ive still got playing to do and will likely need to run the room correction on the rest of the system again, things sound slightly out of whack. And the sub is still sounding localized, however its very subtle after the PBK and adjusting the speaker distance for the sub. Any suggestions here???

If the sub sounds localized my first suspect would be it crossed over to high
most people can't tell at 80Hz and lower most can above 100hz.
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post #25 of 47 Old 03-02-2012, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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If the sub sounds localized my first suspect would be it crossed over to high
most people can't tell at 80Hz and lower most can above 100hz.

Crossover is set at 80Hz right now, I can try 50Hz when I recalibrate, my mains might get a little anemic going that low but worth trying.
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post #26 of 47 Old 03-02-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post

Crossover is set at 80Hz right now, I can try 50Hz when I recalibrate, my mains might get a little anemic going that low but worth trying.

i would try 70 or 60 Hz after that you really are asking your mains to do a job your sub is better qualified at.
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post #27 of 47 Old 03-02-2012, 01:01 PM
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Yes, run the room correction to correct the distance for the new location. I agree the crossover at 50 Hz is too low. Try 70 Hz. What's the sub's gain at now?

Anyone know how reliable the PBK mic measurements are on that graph? Shows the Sub starts falling off just above 20 Hz.
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post #28 of 47 Old 03-02-2012, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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My crossover options are 50/80/100/150. Ill play with the 50/80 option once I get the 67hz eq point on the mains dialed in.
Gain on the sub is at 12 oclock right now, bass is running a touch hot at this position which im betting isnt helping with the localization.

The problem I am having is the sub is about 10' direct to my right ear, and I can pick up the bass tones just a little louder in my right ear than left. It got dramatically better once I adjusted the speaker distance but when I am listening to music especially I can still notice it.

I bet PBK mic is reasonably accurate, its a calibrated USB mic. Im sure there are more accurate mic's out there, but paradigm wouldnt be selling these as a calibration solution for all of their sub's including the $9,000 SUB2 if it wasnt at least a decent product.

And yes JUST starting to roll off at 20hz, with the PBK set to full auto. If i force a flat eq curve there is no roll off on the graph, it would be nice to see how far and fast it drops but one of my big hopes with this sub was to get decent 20hz (and below) performance at normal volumes and i think ive achieved that. Gotta remember its a tiny sealed box 12" sub, only so much physics will allow.
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post #29 of 47 Old 03-05-2012, 01:00 PM
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One doesn't "think" they've achieved strong 20hz performance.

One knows!

These 15 to 20 hz frequencies played with authority are where involuntary grins are encountered.

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post #30 of 47 Old 03-05-2012, 02:05 PM
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Had a listen to a Monitor Sub 12 on the weekend. Nice tight little sub. Comparible to a DSP-3100 (10" ported) for loudness, but much more accurate, goes lower and it's not as boomy. Explosions had a good rumble feeling although not leg shaking. Bullets hitting the tarmack felt like someone was poking you. Listening to music, it's certainly not a one note sub. Didn't have access to a SVS sub but compared it to a klipsch SW112B (12" ported). I know it's no SVS PB12... Anyways it moved more air but didn't have near the depth and detail. I think you'd trully have to compare a SVS SB12 to a Monitor Sub 12.

The Sub 12 generates the kind of bass you'd appreciate more and more over time, rather than becoming bored with the one note boom many subs give you. You shouldn't have any regrets, although the SVS SB12 is probably a comparable sub the SVS PB12 is a totally different animal. I think you made a good choice.
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