Any X-ref 10 owners? - AVS Forum
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I see talk on the X-ref 12, but almost nothing on the X-ref 10
Any owners out there?
Thoughts on the sub?

Being challenged in the money department, I was looking at spending $350 of Christmas money on a sub. I got the OK to stretch it to the $419 on Emotiva's Holiday sale. I was very impressed with the look of the sub! Very nice black piano finish. Much nicer looking than most subs I have seen costing a lot more.

I am also very happy with how it sounds, very tight and musical. Happy with HT as well, even though it is not able to dig as deep as some other subs. I upgraded from a Polk PSW 111, and it is like a night a day difference in output and quality.

Anyone have any impressions on the X-ref 10?
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Old 02-09-2012, 03:15 AM
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Hey Anthony, see you started your own thread. Not a 10 owner but wanted to apologize for response you got over in No Love thread. I started that thread for all X ref owners, unfortunately it has been hijacked by a couple of bickering fools who keep rehashing same argument every few days. I had seen your post but hadn't had time to respond there. Hope you find some 10 owners to converse with and your thread goes better than mine. Happy listening.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

I see talk on the X-ref 12, but almost nothing on the X-ref 10
Any owners out there?
Thoughts on the sub?

Being challenged in the money department, I was looking at spending $350 of Christmas money on a sub. I got the OK to stretch it to the $419 on Emotiva's Holiday sale. I was very impressed with the look of the sub! Very nice black piano finish. Much nicer looking than most subs I have seen costing a lot more.

I am also very happy with how it sounds, very tight and musical. Happy with HT as well, even though it is not able to dig as deep as some other subs. I upgraded from a Polk PSW 111, and it is like a night a day difference in output and quality.

Anyone have any impressions on the X-ref 10?

All that matters is that you are happy with your purchase.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

... I was looking at spending $350 of Christmas money on a sub. I got the OK to stretch it to the $419 on Emotiva's Holiday sale. I was very impressed with the look of the sub! ... Much nicer looking than most subs I have seen costing a lot more.

I am also very happy with how it sounds, very tight and musical. Happy with HT as well, even though it is not able to dig as deep as some other subs. I upgraded from a Polk PSW 111, and it is like a night a day difference in output and quality.

Congrats on your new sub. Sounds like you got a good deal on a nice sub and you're happy with it - what's not to like?!
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Volfan for noticing. I have been following the No love thread, and boy has it gone crazy Seems most people talk about the big subs, and no love those of us with the small guys. What sub do you have?
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I saw your HT setup eljay, very nice! Ever think about moving up to the Signature series?
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:18 AM
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Well I was all set to get the 10 like you and then saved a bunch of money on my AVR purchase so I decided to upgrade to the 12. I like you wanted tight, accurate bass. I'm not into boomy bass and was looking for a "musical" sub. Living in TN I also wanted to support an in state company. 5 year warranty was also a deciding factor. I do enjoy my sub and think it sounds great.
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

I saw your HT setup eljay, very nice!

Thanks!

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Ever think about moving up to the Signature series?

Nope. The Studios sound great, so there's no incentive to upgrade from them.
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:06 AM
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Here's are two discussion threads that came up using the search engine:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...light=x+ref+10

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...light=x+ref+10

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Old 02-10-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

I see talk on the X-ref 12, but almost nothing on the X-ref 10
Any owners out there?
Thoughts on the sub?

Being challenged in the money department, I was looking at spending $350 of Christmas money on a sub. I got the OK to stretch it to the $419 on Emotiva's Holiday sale. I was very impressed with the look of the sub! Very nice black piano finish. Much nicer looking than most subs I have seen costing a lot more.

I am also very happy with how it sounds, very tight and musical. Happy with HT as well, even though it is not able to dig as deep as some other subs. I upgraded from a Polk PSW 111, and it is like a night a day difference in output and quality.

Anyone have any impressions on the X-ref 10?

Not an owner, however, the X-Ref 10 suffers from the same limitations as the X-Ref 12; an overly aggressive limiter and major filtering, both of which limit response below about 30 Hz. Josh Ricci, who tested the X-Ref 12 for Audioholics noted these problems. Also, the X-Ref 12 got the least impressive room size rating which is Small. The X-Ref 10 is not likely to do any better in larger rooms.

I'm glad you like your sub and it is a real upgrade from the Polk PSW111, however, it is clearly a music sub first and a distant second for movies as it is lacking in the range running from 20Hz to 31.5 Hz which is the CEA 2010 designation for Ultra Low Bass.
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

I am also very happy with how it sounds, very tight and musical. Happy with HT as well, even though it is not able to dig as deep as some other subs. I upgraded from a Polk PSW 111, and it is like a night a day difference in output and quality.

No doubt. That has to be a great upgrade in SQ. Probably like going from cassette tapes to CDs

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Old 02-11-2012, 01:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your reply spyboy. I did research the X-ref in-depth, so I am aware of it's strengths and weaknesses. At $400, there are compromises for any sub. What sub goes down to 20Hz at this price, and importantly, with quality?
I am curious what sub you would recommend at $400?
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


Not an owner, however, the X-Ref 10 suffers from the same limitations as the X-Ref 12; an overly aggressive limiter and major filtering, both of which limit response below about 30 Hz. Josh Ricci, who tested the X-Ref 12 for Audioholics noted these problems. Also, the X-Ref 12 got the least impressive room size rating which is Small. The X-Ref 10 is not likely to do any better in larger rooms.

I'm glad you like your sub and it is a real upgrade from the Polk PSW111, however, it is clearly a music sub first and a distant second for movies as it is lacking in the range running from 20Hz to 31.5 Hz which is the CEA 2010 designation for Ultra Low Bass.

Youre just asking for him to come aren't you hahah

But like the op said what would you prefer for that budget?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:54 AM
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Youre just asking for him to come aren't you hahah

But like the op said what would you prefer for that budget?

I thought the same thing. Looks like the beginning of the end of yet another Emotiva thread
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

Thanks for your reply spyboy. I did research the X-ref in-depth, so I am aware of it's strengths and weaknesses. At $400, there are compromises for any sub. What sub goes down to 20Hz at this price, and importantly, with quality?
I am curious what sub you would recommend at $400?

I'm in the same boat you are. I'm looking for a relatively inexpensive sub with reasonable output below 30Hz. Unfortunately, you are correct as the options are limited at this $400.

The nice thing about the X-ref 10 is that it's really small and has excellent WAF. I almost considered buying that subwoofer myself based upon its looks. Unfortunately, the Christmas sale is over and I'm not sure I want to pay $499 for it.

Life is good.
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Youre just asking for him to come aren't you hahah

And that's been a real problem. Because beetlejuice (yes, I'm afraid to say his real user name) has been so intent on repeating the same arguments over and over again and running them into the ground, we've missed discussing the main contender for the X-Refs at their price point: the NHTs subs. The NHT B-10d is very similar in size. But if NHT's specs are to be trusted, it goes a little bit higher in frequency response than the X-Ref. Would be interesting to see tests on it. Anyone see any charts for it or the higher model NHT B-12d?

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Old 02-11-2012, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

Thanks for your reply spyboy. I did research the X-ref in-depth, so I am aware of it's strengths and weaknesses. At $400, there are compromises for any sub. What sub goes down to 20Hz at this price, and importantly, with quality?
I am curious what sub you would recommend at $400?

At $400 I would seriously consider the HSU VTF-1:

Minus 1 db at 25Hz. Shipping weight 56 pounds.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html

Ported subs at this or lower price points often deliver better depth than the small sealed subs like the X-Ref 10.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:17 PM
 
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In view of Spyboy's commentary, let's review the verdict that reached on the X-Ref 10 by very knowledgeable, professional and respectable institution, Audioholics.

After having reviewed the X-Ref 10, measured it, examining its build quality, tested it on real world material and having first hand experience with the subwoofer, which puts them in the superior position, rendered this verdict.

"Emotifrontva has once again proved they can design a subwoofer with the same no-nonsense rugged build quality they do with their amplifiers. You simply cannot break this sub no matter how hard you drive it. Unfortunately this is also the Achilles Heel for this product as Emotiva employed a rather steep HPF which limits the sub's ability to benefit from room gain below 30Hz. This won’t be a problem for music applications, but bassaholics may want to step up to their larger XRef-12 or Ultra 12 subwoofers if they plan on doing a lot of movie watching. Alternatively, if you can’t live with a larger box, consider the EQ boosting I performed as it did improve low end output, resulting in a more pleasing listening experience for both music and movies.

The Emotiva X-Ref 10 is a beautifully-crafted, potent, and compact subwoofer with many useful features including an adjustable PEQ to ensure you get the best performance of your subwoofer when integrating it into your room. Take your time to set this baby up and utilize all of its features. It will reward you with good clean bass that well engineered sealed subs are known for. Emotiva’s free shipping and generous 30 day return policy makes this value sub a no brainer if you’re in the market for a high performance sub in a compact footprint to please your significant other."


Note the words "well engineered" and "high performance sub".

Once again, after they examined all the facts, pro and con, they reached a very good verdict for the X-Ref 10.

Case Closed.!!
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:56 PM
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Cel I thought you had to say it three times to call him.
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:08 PM
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Yeah, I think the word "X-Ref" just has to be said in three different posts in a thread (lol)

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Old 02-12-2012, 11:23 AM
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No matter how you slice it the X-Refs are hampered by an overly aggressive limiter and a 3rd order High Pass Filter that hamper the X-Refs, no ifs, ands, or buts...even your one time buddy ObsceneJester bought a true HT sub...
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

No matter how you slice it the X-Refs are hampered by an overly aggressive limiter and a 3rd order High Pass Filter that hamper the X-Refs, no ifs, ands, or buts...even your one time buddy ObsceneJester bought a true HT sub...

Notwithstanding, they still said.

"Alternatively, if you can't live with a larger box, consider the EQ boosting I performed as it did improve low end output, resulting in a more pleasing listening experience for both music and movies.

The Emotiva X-Ref 10 is a beautifully-crafted, potent, and compact subwoofer with many useful features including an adjustable PEQ to ensure you get the best performance of your subwoofer when integrating it into your room. Take your time to set this baby up and utilize all of its features. It will reward you with good clean bass that well engineered sealed subs are known for."

Don't get upset with me, you should take that up with Gene at Audioholics. His words are total repudiation of your opinion and negativity.

Another point. You can't run me away like you did him, I've been around since 2002. I will be here, representing the X-Ref and all things a sacred about it.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:50 AM
 
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Gene also used the word "Potent" to describe the X-10.

Look up the meaning that word.
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Spyboy, I did take a look at the HSU as well, but I was looking at the STF-2, rather than the VTF-1, as that was closer to what I could afford, and the VTF-1 was not on sale at that time I was looking. I was curious to compare the 2, I was quite surprised by the findings.

Audioholics has a review on both, so I wanted to compare how much deeper it went over the X-ref 10, especially because the biggest complaint was the drop at 30 Hz, and I was actually shocked! The X-ref has higher SPL at 25Hz, and the VTF-1 was about 77 SPL at 20Hz, vs about 73 Hz for the X-ref (this is with the EQ optimized as Gene from Audioholics did).

I did compared the review scores, the HSU does get 4/5 for bass extension, the X-ref 3/5. For bass accuracy, it betters the HSU, getting the full 5/5, and same score for build quality. Both got 4/5 for performance. I personally was sold on the 5 year warranty on everything vs only 2 year on the amp for HSU. Bass accuracy is what this sub excels at, is why this was my personal choice. I am loosing only 4 SPL at 20Hz to the VTF-1, which I think is an acceptable trade-off.

Quality for me ranks higher than max extension. If one is serious, both lack in SPL and bass extenison, and one needs to be in the $800 to$1000 range to get that and quality. I do agree with you spyboy that the HSU would be one of the best subs in the price range. Thanks for your input, and I did have a lot of fun researching this, and the work I did before I bought the sub. There is definitely a lot of choice, but that is why this hobby is a lot of fun.

I would say that you do focus little too much on max bass extension along with many others on this board. Off course lower is better, but what about the sound quality? You might hit that explosion a little better, but if quality is not there, that means every sound it outputs is compromised. Better is miss the 1 to 2% at the low end, rather than have all the low end sound to be muddy and boomy.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

Spyboy, I did take a look at the HSU as well, but I was looking at the STF-2, rather than the VTF-1, as that was closer to what I could afford, and the VTF-1 was not on sale at that time I was looking. I was curious to compare the 2, I was quite surprised by the findings.

Audioholics has a review on both, so I wanted to compare how much deeper it went over the X-ref 10, especially because the biggest complaint was the drop at 30 Hz, and I was actually shocked! The X-ref has higher SPL at 25Hz, and the VTF-1 was about 77 SPL at 20Hz, vs about 73 Hz for the X-ref (this is with the EQ optimized as Gene from Audioholics did).

Where did you come up with 77db at 20hz for the VTF-1? Here's the graph showing max SPL in ME and MO modes from the Audioholics VTF-1 review. It's a whole lot higher than that in ME mode.

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Old 02-13-2012, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I was looking at the wrong graph cel4145. I was looking at moderate levels, rather than max, where it is around 90db. VTF-1 looks to be the one to beat for deep bass extension for the money. Thanks for the correction!
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by anthonywoy View Post

I was looking at the wrong graph cel4145. I was looking at moderate levels, rather than max, where it is around 90db. VTF-1 looks to be the one to beat for deep bass extension for the money. Thanks for the correction!

I was thinking that might have been it

Yeah. The VTF-1 is very flat, too, in ME mode.

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Old 02-13-2012, 04:13 PM
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Now you know how much more output the HSU VTF-1 has over the X-Ref. HSU are known for being musical.

How much advertising does Emotiva do on Audioholics?
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:56 AM - Thread Starter
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No doubt spyboy, the VTF-1 does have more output. Best value that I can see out there (and still have decent quality).

In comparing to the X-ref, that is probably the only major disadvantage it has with the VTF-1. In terms of looks, build quality, warranty, accuracy, the X-ref 10 has the advantage. Yes, the HSU is musical, but not as good. Should not the quality of the sound be the most important? This is where this sub excels, and one has to spend a lot more to reach the same bass accuracy compared to many other brands.

Of course content, room size, use, all factor in. This will not do the job in a large area, where much more output is needed to pressurize the room. I have a small room, about 1550, and sealed, so I do get good slam with this sub. Many people live in apartments, townhouses, basements suites, dorms, where a big monster sub is not an option, or not even needed in the smaller rooms these place tend to have.

Sure, I miss a bit of deeper bass, but if the quality is not there, I am even an audiophile anymore? It is like recommending speakers to a friend that play loud, but only sound OK, over one that are not quite as loud, but have superior sound quality.

I am not sure what you are saying about advertising Emotiva does on Audioholics. Do you mean they buy there way into getting a good review? Sure, it could be happening, but it does not look like something Audioholics would do. I don't see many manufactures sending their small, sealed, inexpensive subs to be reviewed at the site, so kudos to Emotiva for putting themselves out there, especially at Audioholics, who do a good indepth analysis and measurements.

Curious, what sub do you own?
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Old 02-15-2012, 08:30 AM
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Sure, I miss a bit of deeper bass, but if the quality is not there, I am even an audiophile anymore? It is like recommending speakers to a friend that play loud, but only sound OK, over one that are not quite as loud, but have superior sound quality.

I think worrying over whether or not a label applies to you is problematic. Depends on your definition of audiophile, and how loud you use the sub. The X-Ref exhibits compression in the lower frequencies at higher volumes, and so accuracy of frequency response could be reduced at your listening levels.

And while audiophile used to mean a focus on music reproduction in 2 channel, arguably the quality of blu-ray makes room for an expanded definition that includes movies, too, which require a lower frequency response for accurate sound reproduction--that is an important part of "superior sound quality" which you aren't getting.

Also, some people wouldn't consider you an audiophile (I don't think that) with only a $400 sub.

Finally, the implication of this argument is that someone who does not agree with you is not an audiophile; that's more likely to cause people to response negatively to your argument, than to come to agreement with you.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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