Dont drop the ball !!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 02-11-2012, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure why, but i have been reading more and more audio people on forums all over repeating the same disturbing phrase... " I'm not really a graph person ", or along those lines..

Now I'm not sure why after years of R&D, and graphs and specs that we demand, do we get our crown jewel of a subwoofer home and decide ....... Ehough of all this science stuff and recommend we crawl across the floor to find the perfect place for it.... Why thats what the manufacturer did right, crawl'd across the floor during R&D to get that long list of specs and graphs....that you so demand...Ha !!!!

Lets pick up the ball that we so carefully set down and realize science is a must , from the beginning to the end.....

Dig in your audio budget and pick up one of the many measuring tools we have afforded to us online and turn this back into a science, where it started.

I'm sure SVS is scouring the planet for the next set of Golden Ear carpet crawlers to test their new line of subwoofers..... Or Dennis Erskine is strapping on knee pads as we speak getting paid Ooooodles of dollars to crawl across some poor slepps HT.....

Dont drop the ball !!!


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post #2 of 27 Old 02-11-2012, 11:48 AM
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I've only got three places where a sub could be located. It's quite easy to do three listening tests and decide which location gives the most enjoyable sound. I don't have to buy extra equipment and look at lots of charts and graphs.

I have no doubt that SVS uses their ears to do the final tweeks in their designs.
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post #3 of 27 Old 02-11-2012, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Reap what you sow.....


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post #4 of 27 Old 02-11-2012, 12:50 PM
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I figure...
- IF I've done my research, purchased a well-rated and/or well-reviewed sub, placed it in the most ideal spot in my room (subject to whatever physical and/or aesthetic limitations might exist), run some sort of EQ program and performed tweaks if/as required,
- AND the sub (and the rest of my system) sounds awesome,
...there's nothing more to be done except to sit back and enjoy.


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post #5 of 27 Old 02-11-2012, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I figure...
- IF I've done my research, purchased a well-rated and/or well-reviewed sub, placed it in the most ideal spot in my room (subject to whatever physical and/or aesthetic limitations might exist), run some sort of EQ program and performed tweaks if/as required,
- AND the sub (and the rest of my system) sounds awesome,
...there's nothing more to be done except to sit back and enjoy.

A little vague....


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post #6 of 27 Old 02-11-2012, 02:23 PM
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That reminds me there is an old phrase: you have to crawl before you walk...
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post #7 of 27 Old 02-11-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

I've only got three places where a sub could be located. It's quite easy to do three listening tests and decide which location gives the most enjoyable sound. I don't have to buy extra equipment and look at lots of charts and graphs.

I have no doubt that SVS uses their ears to do the final tweeks in their designs.

I was also limited to three it is now in its best location if I had a dedicated theater room things would be different but so far no complaints.
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post #8 of 27 Old 02-11-2012, 04:12 PM
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Don't drop the soap either...


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graphs are important,if your looking for a dip in your room.
Science in audio is fun for most folks,this why i'm here!.
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post #10 of 27 Old 02-11-2012, 05:04 PM
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don't drop the soap either...

lol!
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post #11 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 12:10 PM
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Thanks for spreading the word! I see way too many people with thousands in equipment wanting to upgrade and they have no idea of their rooms affects. Money spent on finding the root of the problem is money well spent. Always get the best of what you have, and that requires measuring!
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post #12 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 01:49 PM
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Great post... I think there's an under appreciation of how room interactions dominate subwoofer "sound quality." Unfortunately, I learned that this lesson the hard way after spending over $5000 in subwoofers. Live and learn.

Life is good.
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post #13 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

I'm not sure why, but i have been reading more and more audio people on forums all over repeating the same disturbing phrase... " I'm not really a graph person ", or along those lines..

Now I'm not sure why after years of R&D, and graphs and specs that we demand, do we get our crown jewel of a subwoofer home and decide ....... Ehough of all this science stuff and recommend we crawl across the floor to find the perfect place for it.... Why thats what the manufacturer did right, crawl'd across the floor during R&D to get that long list of specs and graphs....that you so demand...Ha !!!!

Lets pick up the ball that we so carefully set down and realize science is a must , from the beginning to the end.....

Dig in your audio budget and pick up one of the many measuring tools we have afforded to us online and turn this back into a science, where it started.

I'm sure SVS is scouring the planet for the next set of Golden Ear carpet crawlers to test their new line of subwoofers..... Or Dennis Erskine is strapping on knee pads as we speak getting paid Ooooodles of dollars to crawl across some poor slepps HT.....

Dont drop the ball !!!

Subjectivity will always trounce science from a interpersonal perspective, so not matter what you post, it will fall on deaf ears.

Personally, i couldn't care less about taking measurements in my home environment. If it sounds good to me, than thats all that matters in the end. YOU arent listening to it, so why should YOU care what I have chosen?
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post #14 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jaeelarr View Post

Subjectivity will always trounce science from a interpersonal perspective, so not matter what you post, it will fall on deaf ears.

Personally, i couldn't care less about taking measurements in my home environment. If it sounds good to me, than thats all that matters in the end. YOU arent listening to it, so why should YOU care what I have chosen?

A simple free program like REW using your receivers Audyssey/YPAO/etc mic (plug the mic into the comp running REW) will show you all the massive peaks and valleys in a typical room response. Why would someone who spends a large sum of money on a sub(s) not want to see and attempt to correct that? Simply moving your sub and remeasuring takes 5 minutes of effort. Many subs also have built in EQ features allowing you to cut a boomy sounding peak, which is super easy to do when you know exactly what frequency to cut down. Measuring is even more important if you have multiple subs, it's kind of hard to eliminate out of phase suck outs without it.


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post #15 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

A simple free program like REW using your receivers Audyssey/YPAO/etc mic (plug the mic into the comp running REW) will show you all the massive peaks and valleys in a typical room response. Why would someone who spends a large sum of money on a sub(s) not want to see and attempt to correct that? Simply moving your sub and remeasuring takes 5 minutes of effort. Many subs also have built in EQ features allowing you to cut a boomy sounding peak, which is super easy to do when you know exactly what frequency to cut down. Measuring is even more important if you have multiple subs, it's kind of hard to eliminate out of phase suck outs without it.

5 minutes might be a bit of an understatement, it took me 2 hours the other night with an omnimic to get some sort of assemblance of a flat response....

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post #16 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kcnitro07 View Post

5 minutes might be a bit of an understatement, it took me 2 hours the other night with an omnimic to get some sort of assemblance of a flat response....

Very true to get a response you're truly happy with can take some time. Taking that first step in the process is only a few minutes worth to get the ball rolling.


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post #17 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaeelarr View Post

Subjectivity will always trounce science from a interpersonal perspective, so not matter what you post, it will fall on deaf ears.

Personally, i couldn't care less about taking measurements in my home environment. If it sounds good to me, than thats all that matters in the end. YOU arent listening to it, so why should YOU care what I have chosen?

If you are happy with what you have and choose to live in ignorant bliss, then measurements are not necessary. To me, there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking this approach.

However, there are some out there, including myself, who have felt that something was missing with regards to sound quality. Many times, their audio equipment is erroneously blamed rather than the room itself. I think in these cases, measurements are useful to help pinpoint what the problem is.

Life is good.
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post #18 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 03:51 PM
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Good post, but at the same time you don't need to patronize some of the people in here. Like the guy mentioned above. Some people have a few spots to choose from. So...if you have 3 spots, why waste money on measuring equipment, when you can use your ears and hear the difference.
Not everyone is b***s deep in this hobby. Would I take your advice? Yes. Because I love audio and want to learn as much as I can from people on this forum.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
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My humble entertainment room

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post #19 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Good post, but at the same time you don't need to patronize some of the people in here. Like the guy mentioned above. Some people have a few spots to choose from. So...if you have 3 spots, why waste money on measuring equipment, when you can use your ears and hear the difference.
Not everyone is b***s deep in this hobby. Would I take your advice? Yes. Because I love audio and want to learn as much as I can from people on this forum.

What money are you wasting with REW and the mic that comes with your receiver?


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post #20 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

I'm not sure why, but i have been reading more and more audio people on forums all over repeating the same disturbing phrase... " I'm not really a graph person ", or along those lines..

Now I'm not sure why after years of R&D, and graphs and specs that we demand, do we get our crown jewel of a subwoofer home and decide ....... Ehough of all this science stuff and recommend we crawl across the floor to find the perfect place for it.... Why thats what the manufacturer did right, crawl'd across the floor during R&D to get that long list of specs and graphs....that you so demand...Ha !!!!

Lets pick up the ball that we so carefully set down and realize science is a must , from the beginning to the end.....

Dig in your audio budget and pick up one of the many measuring tools we have afforded to us online and turn this back into a science, where it started.

I'm sure SVS is scouring the planet for the next set of Golden Ear carpet crawlers to test their new line of subwoofers..... Or Dennis Erskine is strapping on knee pads as we speak getting paid Ooooodles of dollars to crawl across some poor slepps HT.....

Dont drop the ball !!!

It's distrurbing that you find it disturbing really. People can't just ever "be" on this site it seems. One theme is if you buy bick and mortar you waste money because ID so much a better value, now if you dont buy measuring equipment and tame your familyrooms modes you are "disturbing" some members here. Why in the world can't left handers write with their left hand and righties go right on this site? There is always someone who is ready to lead to blind, foolish masses out of the darkness and into the light as they drop names and cite people most of us on this forum have never heard of (and couldn't care less about) as if that is some sort of validation to them. I would wager the naive to room modes people on here most likely enjoy their equipment more that the measure and crawl crowd. They ultimately win in the end because they seem to enjoy what they have and aren't dwelling on what they don't. I have seen so many of the familiar names over the years on this forum sweat and worry about what they don't have (becasue those measurements tell them so!!!), all the while the guy who starts the "what's the best $300 sub" thread is just stoked out of his mind his new sub made his beer can rattle during the WOTW.
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post #21 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 08:56 PM
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only makes sense to do the measuring if you intend to do something with it... not everybody has the freedom to place treatments in their room as they desire or even a way to EQ their sub.

HTPC always in progess...
things I've learned here:
"the sound of a power cord" is BS.
turn your center speaker 90 degrees.
avoid women who require WAF in a HT.
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post #22 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

It's distrurbing that you find it disturbing really. People can't just ever "be" on this site it seems. One theme is if you buy bick and mortar you waste money because ID so much a better value, now if you dont buy measuring equipment and tame your familyrooms modes you are "disturbing" some members here. Why in the world can't left handers write with their left hand and righties go right on this site? There is always someone who is ready to lead to blind, foolish masses out of the darkness and into the light as they drop names and cite people most of us on this forum have never heard of (and couldn't care less about) as if that is some sort of validation to them. I would wager the naive to room modes people on here most likely enjoy their equipment more that the measure and crawl crowd. They ultimately win in the end because they seem to enjoy what they have and aren't dwelling on what they don't. I have seen so many of the familiar names over the years on this forum sweat and worry about what they don't have (becasue those measurements tell them so!!!), all the while the guy who starts the "what's the best $300 sub" thread is just stoked out of his mind his new sub made his beer can rattle during the WOTW.

If you don't like the science to making good sound, well you are in the wrong place. Its not a righty lefty thing, its a right vs. not right. You either want to reproduce the experience closest to the way the creator intended as you can or you don't. Frequency response dominates a subwoofers sound. Its another ignorance is bliss post, well I say educate yourself. This is a great place to do it. Telling people to measure isn't leading the blind, it is removing the blind from their face.

With every spot you can rotate the sub causing some measurable differences if close to a boundary. Also measurements can benefit other parts of the system besides sub placement. You have the crossover region as well as seat and speaker placement to name a few. I don't know of anyone myself who has measured and think what a waste of time and money. The benefits have been shown time and time again, and give instant gratification and certainty.

If you are on avs you are deep enough. Why not for a small portion of the system price pick up one of the readily available products that will help optimize your investments? When you find out where your system needs work after measuring, next purchases are guided instead of blindly buying what might help. I do agree though that it can be like peaking down the rabbit hole, but this is a HT forum and measurements are key to better HT performance. I do it for the movies, and I want to experience them the way they were made with compromises I choose.
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post #23 of 27 Old 02-13-2012, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redass View Post

only makes sense to do the measuring if you intend to do something with it... not everybody has the freedom to place treatments in their room as they desire or even a way to EQ their sub.

There are actually other reasons to measure. One reason is that it is very educational. One could argue that they know what they like when they hear it, but do they really know what they are listening to unless they see it graphed? Learning what flat and accurate actually sounds like takes a bit of training. You don't really know if it's flat unless you can measure it and see it.

As far as being able to fix frequency problems, almost everyone has some degree of control even without being able to move anything, eq anything, or use room treatments. Most users have some control over crossover points and phase adjustments. Typically there is some way to digitally adjust delay. Those adjustments alone can have a huge effect on frequency response, but it's almost impossible to know if you have them set right without first taking measurements.

Sure, this all takes some work. Whether it's worth it depends on how important it is to you to get the best sound out of the equipment you already have. I've seen so many folks on this forum change out one sub for another again and again, often changing out perfectly good equipment in search of a satisfying sound without ever bothering to optimize the stuff they already had. To me that makes no sense.
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post #24 of 27 Old 02-14-2012, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

It's distrurbing that you find it disturbing really. People can't just ever "be" on this site it seems. One theme is if you buy bick and mortar you waste money because ID so much a better value, now if you dont buy measuring equipment and tame your familyrooms modes you are "disturbing" some members here. Why in the world can't left handers write with their left hand and righties go right on this site? There is always someone who is ready to lead to blind, foolish masses out of the darkness and into the light as they drop names and cite people most of us on this forum have never heard of (and couldn't care less about) as if that is some sort of validation to them. I would wager the naive to room modes people on here most likely enjoy their equipment more that the measure and crawl crowd. They ultimately win in the end because they seem to enjoy what they have and aren't dwelling on what they don't. I have seen so many of the familiar names over the years on this forum sweat and worry about what they don't have (becasue those measurements tell them so!!!), all the while the guy who starts the "what's the best $300 sub" thread is just stoked out of his mind his new sub made his beer can rattle during the WOTW.

I'm not talking to you, this is for the buyer who "isn't" happy with his sub, sound, room, equipment. If you are happy, Great.


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post #25 of 27 Old 02-14-2012, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Good post, but at the same time you don't need to patronize some of the people in here. Like the guy mentioned above. Some people have a few spots to choose from. So...if you have 3 spots, why waste money on measuring equipment, when you can use your ears and hear the difference.
Not everyone is b***s deep in this hobby. Would I take your advice? Yes. Because I love audio and want to learn as much as I can from people on this forum.

This is meant for the guy who is upgrading his sub, and doesnt have a clue. When faced with the advice, " get some gear to measure your room". No way, I'm not a scientist, and graphs mean nothing to me. Pure ignorant to even think of upgrading when you havent a clue what the sound is doing once it leaves your sub and is at the mercy of your rooms acoustics.

So, if you are happy, I'm happy. If you want to spend tons on your next sub because everyone said its the best, go ahead.

......but if you wish to continue the science that the manufacurer used in the development, get some gear and begin to enlighten yourself on the ways of room acoustics, and for the record, i am just beginning to scratch the surface..

....and if i use the word YOU, its not meant for you personally, i just use that word too much LOL..

Peace out


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post #26 of 27 Old 02-14-2012, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDigitalGuy05 View Post

graphs are important,if your looking for a dip in your room.
Science in audio is fun for most folks,this why i'm here!.

Dips, peaks, education, enlightenment..... Its all good !

Peace out !!!!


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post #27 of 27 Old 02-14-2012, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redass View Post

only makes sense to do the measuring if you intend to do something with it... not everybody has the freedom to place treatments in their room as they desire or even a way to EQ their sub.

I'm not talking to them, its the crawlers, and those who encourage such action. It is such a step backward with Sooooooo many upgrades going on. We could eliminate half of the upgrades if they just learned how to dial in what they have. Its kind of like walking around in the dark, sure a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while, but really.......crawling on the floor


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