Spent some time comparing a FV12 to my other subs... - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Think traffic cop, you overspeed, he check you and you slowdown

MUCH thanks!
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post #32 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 05:18 PM
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Sorry.. force of habit, I just recently retired my DVD player. You should see my amp, it has glass tubes from the 60's

Now, If i can only find those VHS tapes



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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You are so 1990s.

No one uses DVD players any more. Either it's a blu-ray playing the movie, or lossless music streamed to their receiver (hehe)

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post #33 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


You are so 1990s.

No one uses DVD players any more. Either it's a blu-ray playing the movie, or lossless music streamed to their receiver (hehe)

Psssh you are soo 2010. Everyone uses streaming now

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #34 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 05:39 PM
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Awesome writeup. Thanks.

"Thanks, only the Outlaw and Hsu subs are mine."

I'm specifically on the edge about getting one of these. Based on my room size (22x22x8) most agree that the FV12 just won't move enough air.

do you have a review of Outlaw LFM-1 EX vs HSU VTF/3MK4 somewhere on here, or a quick opinion. I've been leaning towards the vtf, but not for any direct reason.
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post #35 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinkster9 View Post

Awesome writeup. Thanks.

"Thanks, only the Outlaw and Hsu subs are mine."

I'm specifically on the edge about getting one of these. Based on my room size (22x22x8) most agree that the FV12 just won't move enough air.

do you have a review of Outlaw LFM-1 EX vs HSU VTF/3MK4 somewhere on here, or a quick opinion. I've been leaning towards the vtf, but not for any direct reason.

The HSU has more tuning options like the Q if you are into that. I was originally going to get a VTF 3.4 but the Outlaw sale got me. If at normal MSRP I would go for the HSU because I could go walk over there and buy one and not buy for shipping

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #36 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Psssh you are soo 2010. Everyone uses streaming now

I use streaming video. I just don't rip blu-rays before I watch 'em. LOL

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post #37 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 06:29 PM
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I see a projector screen! What kind of projector you using?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #38 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I see a projector screen! What kind of projector you using?

Me? Your phone is misleading you. No projector.

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post #39 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 07:23 PM
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Nice contribution to the forum, ShadyJ! While by your own admission not a totally scientific test, your observations are at least in line with what I would have expected. There are a lot of folks looking for $500 subs that will benefit from your effort.
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post #40 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 08:23 PM
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I only wish you got some time to play them all at once.
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post #41 of 72 Old 02-17-2012, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by leninGHOLA View Post

I only wish you got some time to play them all at once.

See post 9

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post #42 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinkster9 View Post

Awesome writeup. Thanks.

"Thanks, only the Outlaw and Hsu subs are mine."

I'm specifically on the edge about getting one of these. Based on my room size (22x22x8) most agree that the FV12 just won't move enough air.

do you have a review of Outlaw LFM-1 EX vs HSU VTF/3MK4 somewhere on here, or a quick opinion. I've been leaning towards the vtf, but not for any direct reason.

Both are terrific subs. I would have to lean more towards the Hsu, as it has more features and slightly lower extension, but they are more alike than they are different. I have also found it's easier to get the Outlaw to chuff, especially using it in max extension mode when down-firing.
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post #43 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DualMono View Post

That would explain your anti-Rythmik bias and why you have you've always discredit Rythmik. You are blinded by your Hsu/Outlaw whoredom.

BTW: Nice hatchet job.

I've read through all your posts, and I do remember hearing somewhere, if you don't have anything nice to say...
I really don't see anything in your posts that is even remotely positive. You just question everyone's decisions on any sub except Rythmik, with nothing positive to contribute. Have you ever even heard a properly calibrated HSU sub, any version?? Your vitriol here is unnecessary, unwarranted, and uncalled for. It's obvious to anyone who cares to look, you're a Rythmik fanboi, and I'll be the first to say I'm a HSU fan, but I'm not bashing anyone else's hard work for what they decide was best for their circumstances, but I think your bashing of other's choices shows us all exactly how much weight to give your opinions regarding ... um... everything you say.
Yeah, I'm harshin' ... it's deserved.

If you want a really good one, you'll have to learn a foreign language. german, for instance...
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post #44 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post


Both are terrific subs. I would have to lean more towards the Hsu, as it has more features and slightly lower extension, but they are more alike than they are different. I have also found it's easier to get the Outlaw to chuff, especially using it in max extension mode when down-firing.

Exactly. The hsu has a bigger port too! Pete even warned me before I got my outlaw about its port size

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #45 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 06:17 AM
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First of all, thanks for taking time to listen to our subs. I initiated this request for ShadyJ to do a mini review. ShadyJ, being a reasonable person based on his posts, doesn't seem to believe that our servo subs make any difference in sound. So the discussion very often came down to let us turn blind eye on this sound difference that Rythmik claims to have. On the other hand, I know our sound is distinctively different (to the better side) and all of my customers can hear it and praise it with a few exceptions (4 total as I recalled with all models years combined and for those customers, I didn't even waste time in refunding them the money). So I wanted to give it a shot at ShadyJ. My goal was not to demonstrate that we can play louder or anything like that. If he can hear any positive note from FV12, I am already a happy man. So I want him to have more relaxing time with the sub. This is much better in my opinion than a couple of hours that is available in a lot of audio get-together.

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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I had a chance to play with a Rythmik FV12 for a couple weeks, ... I wanted to see if Rythmik's servo technology really did produce a different sound, which was something I had been skeptical about.

LOL..

Quote:


.... Of course, the problem is this is not a fair or rigorous comparison, since placement has such an impact on the sub's performance, in output and frequency response, but I wasn't primarily after differences in FR and output. For much of this exercise, I also had any kind of EQing turned off, including Audyssey, as I didn't want to risk obscuring the natural sound of the subs. To help compensate for these deficiencies, I positioned myself closer to them than my typical listening position, where, when measured, the swings in FR weren't quite so severe. I also gain matched them for many of the listening sessions.

I agree with you on this. I believe all of these subs should have pretty flat out of box FR. Besides, the conclusion that you later drew cannot be explained by simple FR difference. That also serves as a reminder that FR is not everything. Harmonic distortion is not everything. There are other factors that makes the sound different. I hope that will steer members away from simple mind thinking that as long as frequency response is same, then there is no difference in sound. I will put in my explanation later in this post.

Quote:


So I turned to film material and sound effects, but at this point not expecting anything different than what I had already experienced with music. One of the first things I played was the Trainstart wav file from Danley Sound Lab's website, and, lo and behold, I hear a difference right away. This wasn't my imagination either, as I had it confirmed by others, and while it wasn't a huge, tremendous difference, it was certainly noticeable and one could hear it right away. The recording is simply a heavy freight train passing by, with lots of different types of rumbles and low frequency crunching noises. While the other subs reproduced this recording well, the Rythmik definitely had a edge in detail for the texture of much of this low frequency grinding. I heard the same in other like recordings, such as distant thunder, and also complex drone type sounds. In certain film passages, there was a difference, such as the pods rising sequence from War of the Worlds. In that scene, there was a richer texture to the earth quaking and crunching sounds, although the Rythmik was not able to dig as deep as the Hsu or Outlaw. However, in other film scenes, I couldn't detect a clear difference, such as the plane crash from Flight of the Phoenix, although I think it would have been harder to gauge a difference in that scene, even switching back and forth immediately because the nature of the bass there changes frequently and abruptly. It's a great demo scene, but just not in the way I was using it.

I'd like to add the difference you hear above is not a switch-on-and-off thing or a step function type of behavior. The difference is always there, just different degree. That is, between no difference in pure sine waves to the complex train sound with very audible difference as ShadyJ has pointed out, there are other levels of difference in between. But the point is everyone should be able to hear it one way or another. If one's setup is more optimized, he maybe able to tell the difference starting from a less complex music signals. [EDIT:] The bright side is the sub has the potential of not being outgrown by other components. One can continue to upgrade the front speakers, the amp, ...etc and the subwoofer will not the limiting factor in sound quality.

Now my explanation of the difference is that all frequency components are reproduced in all subs, there is no signal missing. However, our subs can maintain better correlation (or audible clues) between various interweaving signals. If one use FFT or do a spectral analysis, the difference is completely scattered all over the place. On other subs, it is not that they lose the signals. It is more like they cannot maintain consistency/correlation among all the components in the interweaving signals so our brain just cannot connect the dots (in which case, it sounded like excessive rumble noise in the background that often interpreted as having deeper bass). Once all signals are put in the right perspective, we hear much cleaner sound with a realism that resembles what we hear every day.

Quote:


Output wise, the Rythmik could really belt out a tune, although you really had to compel it to do so. To get it to really blaze, I had to raise the level on the sub out in my AVR quite a bit, and also turn the gain knob up all the way to the max. It will rock though, there is no question about that. It did not have the headroom of the Hsu or Outlaw subs, they could punch harder and louder than the Rythmik, and it was easier to get them to that point, all you had to do was turn the gain knob up a bit. Their volume control is quite a bit more sensitive than the Rythmik's as well, with the Hsu being absurdly sensitive in comparison. Just touching slightly would move the volume by 2 db, I could not get any finer control on the Hsu then that!

Don't be afraid to turn up the volume on our subs. We designed it to be that way so most customers should use 12 o'clock position. The purpose is to avoid this overly sensitive volume control issue you just described. You may have a more steady hand, you can imagine the problem someone with less steady hand can have.


I appreciate ShadyJ to spend his time on this comparison and the conclusion (which I will not quoted again) very much in line with what I anticipated. In terms of sound difference, we sell our subs to both 2 channel customers (10 percent or so) and mixed use customers (the remaining 90%), I really don't want anyone to say our subs are more suitable for 2 channel setup. It is really for all setup and in one way or another, you can hear the sound difference our sub makes. It is actually a quite rewarding experience.
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post #46 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

You know, can someone, in REAL laymans terms explain the servo concept? I feel like a tard for asking, but I still dont understand it.

Thanks!

My interpretation is that the amplifier-speaker interface is like flying a kite. The amplifier acts as your arm and the kite itself is the like the cone, and the thread is like the voice coil resistance that isolates the cone movement from the amplifier controls. In ideal situation, you can control the kite with your hand. But under adverse situation, there is very little one can do. A lot of this is similar to cone control that everyone seems to understand. Servo is a method literally shortens the length of thread so that our hand has much better/predictable control of the kite. That is why the sound coming out from it will be more consistent/correlated. As I have emphasized in the reply post to ShadJ, it is not other subs have dropped the signals to sound less detail. It is more like how the cone cannot maintain coordinated movement under complex signals.
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post #47 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 07:31 AM
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I think the point no one should miss is that this comparison was purely subjective and not standardize but shadyJ does not try to dismiss this and in fact actually enumerates all the foibles with his methodology in conducting this informal comparison... for taking that approach he is to be commended. I appreciate the way he went to pains in expressing his subjective impressions in an open and honest way. Until someone else also can compare any of these subs subjectively or objectively, his opinion will remain all there is... but being purely subjective in nature and methodology it represents at the most only half the story. Once there are results published from some objective testing (by a neutral party) it can be determined if his subjective assessments concerning extension and SPL are indeed accurate and if so then by what degree.

All in all, I feel it came across as a very balanced subjective review.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #48 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 09:08 AM
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shadyj, I'll put this in the subwoofer roundup sticky...

Great job.

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post #49 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I see a projector screen! What kind of projector you using?

Using an Optoma HD20, screen is a Wilsonart Laminate DIY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Exactly. The hsu has a bigger port too! Pete even warned me before I got my outlaw about its port size

I actually bothered to measure the ports on subs, although they might be imprecise measurements because of the flaring. The ED A3-300 had 4" diameter 18" long port. The Rythmik seemed to have a 3.5" diameter 14" long port. The Outlaw had two 3" diameter 12" long ports. With enough gain, it was easy to get the port to chuff on low frequency rumbling stuff with the Outlaw, but simply tipping it over so the ports were more exposed seemed to alleviate the noises they were making. To me, the Outlaw sounds a bit louder down-firing, but also a bit murkier, but making it forward firing seemed to help sharpen up the higher bass frequencies. I also preferred running it forward-firing because I could be sure it wasn't driver stress when any kind of chuffing artifact appeared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

First of all, thanks for taking time to listen to our subs.

Thanks for giving me the time with this sub, which was a real jewel. Given how great the FV12 sounds, I can only imagine how superb the higher end modals must sound!

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post

I think the point no one should miss is that this comparison was purely subjective and not standardize but shadyJ does not try to dismiss this and in fact actually enumerates all the foibles with his methodology in conducting this informal comparison...

lol, actually I didn't enumerate all the foibles with my methodology, to do that would have went on and on, and made my review even more of a drag to read. I want to emphasize this point just a bit more: all of these subs could have been made to sound better than what I had going on, this should be kept in mind. I was chasing after one aspect of the sound, and did so at the expense of the other properties of their sound, which might even have adversely affected what I was looking for in the first place. I just tried to do it the best way I could think of with the limitations (gear, expertise, time, room) I had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

shadyj, I'll put this in the subwoofer roundup sticky...

Great job.


Thanks Archaea!
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post #50 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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One more thing I should mention. I didn't discuss the A3-300 much because when I first started critically listening to the subs, I noticed the driver was making an unusual noise. I have fixed it, but it took some time, as I was getting help from ED via email (the sub was out of warranty). So it was MIA for much of these listening sessions. ED gets kind of a bad rap for sound quality around here, but in my experiences with this sub, it doesn't deserve it at all. The A3 sounds very good, and its a shame ED has essentially discontinued it.
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post #51 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I had a chance to play with a Rythmik FV12 for a couple weeks, so I spent some time comparing it with the other subs I had, which are a couple Hsu VTF3 mk3s, Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EXs, and an Elemental Designs A3-300.

Very well done. You presented that information in such a manner as to make it easy to follow and understand.

Must be great to be able to have your own private GTG, because it seems as though you don't really need anyone to bring a nice sub since you already have them...

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #52 of 72 Old 02-18-2012, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Besides, the conclusion that you later drawn cannot be explained by simple FR difference. That also serves as a reminder that FR is not everything. Harmonic distortion is not everything. There are other factors that makes the sound different. I hope that will steer members away from simple mind thinking that as long as frequency response is same, then there is no difference in sound.

Amen to that - numbers alone don't tell the entire story. There are certain people on this forum who spew data like a computer, convinced it's all that matters. There is more more to it then just numbers, for sure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

I initiated this request for ShadyJ to do a mini review.

So, um, you interested in having anyone else do a subject assessment on one of your subs? I've got some experience doing that very thing (like this, this and this) so I nominate me...

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #53 of 72 Old 02-19-2012, 05:07 AM
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I agree that it is the lack of distortion and the ability to cleanly play all of the recorded sound and nothing else better than others that sets rhythmic apart. I've had a f12 and now a FV15HP and they both have that same characteristic. Numbers are good to determine output capabilities bit these products do have a distinct sound.

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post #54 of 72 Old 02-21-2012, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I've had a f12 and now a FV15HP and they both have that same characteristic. Numbers are good to determine output capabilities bit these products do have a distinct sound.

Given the same volume, would you be able to tell them apart in Music or Movies ?
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post #55 of 72 Old 02-21-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by qguy View Post


Given the same volume, would you be able to tell them apart in Music or Movies ?

Depends on what volume.

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post #56 of 72 Old 02-22-2012, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Besides, the conclusion that you later drew cannot be explained by simple FR difference. That also serves as a reminder that FR is not everything. Harmonic distortion is not everything. There are other factors that makes the sound different. I hope that will steer members away from simple mind thinking that as long as frequency response is same, then there is no difference in sound. I will put in my explanation later in this post......If one use FFT or do a spectral analysis, the difference is completely scattered all over the place.

Hi there,

I'm a bit curious, is there anything in the measurement suite by Josh Ricci that would illustrate these differences you're referring to? As it stands, he does fairly comprehensive measurements including FR & THD at various drive levels, CEA 2010 testing, and waterfall plots/spectrograms. From what I can gather based on the measurements he did of an FV15HP, while it is a fantastic sub for the money, I don't really see anything in the measurements that indicate "ohh yeah, that's a servo sub, so it's much better than an Epik Empire or SVS PB13U". If not, have you talked to him and others about adding a measurement that would better illustrate the advantages to people like me that like fancy graphs?
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post #57 of 72 Old 02-22-2012, 01:55 PM
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not an expert, but I dont think you can measure everything, Frequency response measurements is one aspect, basically Frequency and volume, how you deliver that sound is a another matter. Same way that you can't measure "Imaging" we all know that smaller bookshelves presents a better image compared to larger floorstanders but measurements will tell you that the larger speakers provides a better response..

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Hi there,

I'm a bit curious, is there anything in the measurement suite by Josh Ricci that would illustrate these differences you're referring to? As it stands, he does fairly comprehensive measurements including FR & THD at various drive levels, CEA 2010 testing, and waterfall plots/spectrograms. From what I can gather based on the measurements he did of an FV15HP, while it is a fantastic sub for the money, I don't really see anything in the measurements that indicate "ohh yeah, that's a servo sub, so it's much better than an Epik Empire or SVS PB13U". If not, have you talked to him and others about adding a measurement that would better illustrate the advantages to people like me that like fancy graphs?

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post #58 of 72 Old 02-22-2012, 02:02 PM
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we all know that smaller bookshelves presents a better image compared to larger floorstanders but measurements will tell you that the larger speakers provides a better response..

We don't all know this. Why do you think that it's true?

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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post #59 of 72 Old 02-22-2012, 02:11 PM
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ok you caught me, I am generalizing but based on my experience with several floorstanders and bookshelves that I had in the past, the bookshelves images better compared to the floorstander in the same room

Of course the size of rooms comes into play, treatment etc.. but the point of the post is that you cant measure everything, I just gave the bookshelf imaging as an example


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We don't all know this. Why do you think that it's true?

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post #60 of 72 Old 02-22-2012, 03:06 PM
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not an expert, but I dont think you can measure everything, Frequency response measurements is one aspect, basically Frequency and volume, how you deliver that sound is a another matter. Same way that you can't measure "Imaging" we all know that smaller bookshelves presents a better image compared to larger floorstanders but measurements will tell you that the larger speakers provides a better response..

You can't measure imaging, given that's a matter of human perception, but measurements can give a fair prediction of how a pair of speakers will image.

However, I expect that the folks of Rythmik can measure what he feels makes his subwoofers better, simply because of the following adage from another fine audio engineer of his day, Paul W. Klipsch.

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You can't make what you can't measure because you don't know when you've got it made.

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