Anyone ever regret buying a SVS PB-12NSD ? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Well, I stayed up much too late and I'm taking a slight headache to bed...but I just ordered my SVS PB12-NSD. Time for a little sleep.
Thanks guys!

Now I'm even more confused, by this thread alone I was leaning towards the VTF3.4 and then you order the PB12-NSD.....what are people seeing in the PB12-NSD that I'm not.

In the beginning I was interested in the PB12, and for some reason didn't like the HSU name (weird I know) Then doing researched and reading along in this thread I was being more convinced and then finally settled on the VTF-3.4 and then BAM someone orders the PB12.....sooo confused!
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post #32 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

Now I'm even more confused, by this thread alone I was leaning towards the VTF3.4 and then you order the PB12-NSD.....what are people seeing in the PB12-NSD that I'm not.

In the beginning I was interested in the PB12, and for some reason didn't like the HSU name (weird I know) Then doing researched and reading along in this thread I was being more convinced and then finally settled on the VTF-3.4 and then BAM someone orders the PB12.....sooo confused!

Front firing, carpeted floors, previous SVS experience and the lower height if the box. They are so darn similar though.
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post #33 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Front firing, carpeted floors, previous SVS experience and the lower height if the box. They are so darn similar though.

So if I got carpeted floors, angled ceilings (5' wall, 3' angle ceiling to a flat 8' ceiling from floor) aprox 3,500 cubic ft, what would you suggest for my situation?
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post #34 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post


So if I got carpeted floors, angled ceilings (5' wall, 3' angle ceiling to a flat 8' ceiling from floor) aprox 3,500 cubic ft, what would you suggest for my situation?

Any of the above mentioned subs would be fine. When you get to the upper tier ID brands you're splitting hairs to discern which is better. Just get the biggest and multiple if possible that you can afford. I personally went with SVS.
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post #35 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

So if I got carpeted floors, angled ceilings (5' wall, 3' angle ceiling to a flat 8' ceiling from floor) aprox 3,500 cubic ft, what would you suggest for my situation?

Either one...I wasn't 100% on the SVS, just 51%.
They are very similar.
I will give it a workout in my space and post here my impressions and some spl measurements from my setup by next weekend.
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post #36 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 06:39 AM
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I think the slight edge goes to the VTF for tuning and extension
You probably will be happy with either choice.
You could always place a call to both co.'s and then decide which made you feel more assured.
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post #37 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

So if I got ... aprox 3,500 cubic ft, what would you suggest for my situation?

If your floor is concrete, I suggest duals. This is why.
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post #38 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Either one...I wasn't 100% on the SVS, just 51%.
They are very similar.
I will give it a workout in my space and post here my impressions and some spl measurements from my setup by next weekend.

...and it will enjoy that workout too. Those Sledge amps seem damn near indestructable. I have yet to hear my SB12nsds make any bad noises. The limiters and DSP on the new SVS subs are quite remarkable
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post #39 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 10:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

To those of you who have auditioned and or owned an SVS PB12-NSD, did anyone ever regret their choice? As in, they ended up going bigger to find what they were looking for?
(for say 2500 cu ft spaces or less)

Do you regret it, that's the most important question.
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post #40 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 10:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

I started out with the Bash PB12-NSD. I liked it but it wasn't quite enough for me. I also got it to make some strange noises when pushed really hard. I believe the newer Sledge models do have better control over the driver.

I did end up going with PB12-Plus. That was a nice upgrade.

Why would you push it very hard, you'll mess it up.
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post #41 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 11:14 AM
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I am late to the party, but here is the comparison for everyone to see:


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Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

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post #42 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I'm know I'm going to take flak for this, but I think the VTF3 will have more oomph than the PB12.

At the risk of being branded a fanboi, I'd guess a significant reason for this is the limiter of the PB12.

Looking at the basic CEA2010 results, from 20Hz to 125Hz, the PB12 averages 107dB of output and 6.4% THD+N. With 2 ports open, the EX manages averages of 110.9dB and 13.13% THD+N. With 1 port open, the EX manages 109.9dB and 14.3% THD+N.

Looking at the maximum drive sine sweeps vs distortion, you see a similar pattern: in its maximum sweep (110dB level), the PB12 sees a maximum distortion level of a tad over 10% from 20Hz to 125Hz right around 25Hz. The EX with 1 port open peaks over 20% around the same spot in its 110dB sweep; with both ports open, distortion goes off the chart as the EX approaches 20Hz on the 113dB sweep, and exceeds 25% at 20Hz on the 110dB sweep.

Of course, if you look at the lower drive levels, ie the 105dB and 100dB marks, the PB12 performs quite well versus the EX. In the 105dB drive test, the PB12 stays under 5%THD from 20Hz to 125Hz. The EX cannot manage that little feat under either mode (1 port or 2 ports open) on the 100dB sweep!
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post #43 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I am late to the party, but here is the comparison for everyone to see:


Are those numbers valid for the new PB12-NSD? They look different from anything I've seen recently.

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post #44 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 01:49 PM
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They are valid for that given environment. Remember that room/environment as well as equipment used plays a huge role. You could take that very sub and run a test again in another room with different equipment and get all new numbers.
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post #45 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 01:56 PM
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Actually, those are CEA-2010 standard measurements which represent a ground plane/anechoic measurement. So if you factor in room gain they'll perform better than that. CEA-2010 is the "new" standardized measurement system that Ilkka, Audioholics and Josh Ricci have been using. It's a true apples to apples comparison. And yes, the numbers are extremely valid; some of the only valid ones around IMO.

You can see more measurements on the data-bass website as well as Audioholics (the latter has performed an in-depth review on many of those subwoofers including the SVS PB12-NSD).

http://www.data-bass.com/systems
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers

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post #46 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You can read and study those graphs, the ones for the PB12-NSD and the EX, and still be no better off at making a decision. It's very close.

I will say this about the VTF-3.4. I think the sealed sub mode is mostly gimmick, in that if someone wants a sealed sub, then buy one that was specifically designed to be a sealed sub. For most people it will be an unused option. And I suspect that the Q tuning it not super useful unless one is taking sophisticated measurements with a mic and REW or maybe through using the SMS-1 sub EQ. Otherwise, it will be mostly guess as to how to tune it that finely.

If I had to pick between the VTF-3.4 and the PB12-NSD, I'd probably go with the PB12-NSD for the lower distortion below 30hz.

Is their a link showing the distortion curious because in room if its there can't really tell.
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post #47 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Actually, those are CEA-2010 standard measurements which represent a ground plane/anechoic measurement. So if you factor in room gain they'll perform better than that. CEA-2010 is the "new" standardized measurement system that Ilkka, Audioholics and Josh Ricci have been using. It's a true apples to apples comparison. And yes, the numbers are extremely valid; some of the only valid ones around IMO.

Actually the numbers you posted are for the sine sweep. The tab to the left is marked "CEA2010 Output Results".
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post #48 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Is their a link showing the distortion curious because in room if its there can't really tell.

You mean for the VTF-3 series? I posted it earlier in this thread.

As to whether you'd hear the difference with the HSU or SVS in the room? I don't know. That's why I believe most people should not over think this between the HSU, SVS, and Outlaw EX. They are much more similar in performance than they are different. I went that path, spending hours trying to choose. Then lucky for my, Outlaw put up a b-stock of the EX for under $600 shipped. That made me stop thinking and pull the trigger.

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post #49 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Is their a link showing the distortion curious because in room if its there can't really tell.

PB12-NSD CEA 2010 Output vs Distortion, 2m RMS
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...iew_fullscreen

PB12-NSD Sine Sweep
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...iew_fullscreen

PB12-NSD THD vs output from sine sweep
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...iew_fullscreen

EX 1 port open, CEA 2010 Output vs Distortion, 2m RMS
http://www.data-bass.com/images/meas...ART%20PASS.png

EX 1 port open Sine Sweep
http://www.data-bass.com/images/meas...ompression.jpg

EX 1 port open THD vs output from sine sweep
http://www.data-bass.com/images/meas...HD%20GRAPH.png

EX 2 port open , CEA 2010 Output vs Distortion, 2m RMS
http://www.data-bass.com/images/meas...ART%20PASS.png

EX 2 port open Sine Sweep
http://www.data-bass.com/images/meas...ompression.jpg

EX 2 port open THD vs output from sine sweep
http://www.data-bass.com/images/meas...HD%20GRAPH.png
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post #50 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post


Actually the numbers you posted are for the sine sweep. The tab to the left is marked "CEA2010 Output Results".

Right you are. That's why I posted the links too. They are ground plane, though.

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post #51 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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SaviorMachine...I have seen a cpl dB's higher on many tests for the new Sledge 400w PB-12NSD in different environments.
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post #52 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You mean for the VTF-3 series? I posted it earlier in this thread.

As to whether you'd hear the difference with the HSU or SVS in the room? I don't know. That's why I believe most people should not over think this between the HSU, SVS, and Outlaw EX. They are much more similar in performance than they are different. I went that path, spending hours trying to choose. Then lucky for my, Outlaw put up a b-stock of the EX for under $600 shipped. That made me stop thinking and pull the trigger.

Thanks and you are right.
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post #53 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

At the risk of being branded a fanboi, I'd guess a significant reason for this is the limiter of the PB12.

Looking at the basic CEA2010 results, from 20Hz to 125Hz, the PB12 averages 107dB of output and 6.4% THD+N. With 2 ports open, the EX manages averages of 110.9dB and 13.13% THD+N. With 1 port open, the EX manages 109.9dB and 14.3% THD+N.

Looking at the maximum drive sine sweeps vs distortion, you see a similar pattern: in its maximum sweep (110dB level), the PB12 sees a maximum distortion level of a tad over 10% from 20Hz to 125Hz right around 25Hz. The EX with 1 port open peaks over 20% around the same spot in its 110dB sweep; with both ports open, distortion goes off the chart as the EX approaches 20Hz on the 113dB sweep, and exceeds 25% at 20Hz on the 110dB sweep.

Of course, if you look at the lower drive levels, ie the 105dB and 100dB marks, the PB12 performs quite well versus the EX. In the 105dB drive test, the PB12 stays under 5%THD from 20Hz to 125Hz. The EX cannot manage that little feat under either mode (1 port or 2 ports open) on the 100dB sweep!

This is true, but the question I was responding to was which has more 'oomph', which I take to mean as output. There is no question the Outlaw takes the crown there. SVS takes a somewhat different road, they want a lot more control over the entire operational range of the sub, whereas Outlaw lets you have higher output but at the cost of higher distortion in lower frequencies. Personally, I can see the merit in both approaches. I prefer Outlaw's way of handling this, because the distortion in such low frequencies doesn't sound like much anyway, and the only instances when the sub is actually called to play such low frequencies at such high output are circumstances where you would never know the difference, like a big explosion. I am far more interested in the clean output advantage enjoyed by the Outlaw at 30 hz and over, and I would argue this would make a much greater difference anyway. I'm not trying to badmouth the PB12, it really does look like a great sub, but for my own personal preferences I definitely wouldn't give up one of my Outlaws for one.
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post #54 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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A review I read with a blind A/B of the new PB12 and the VTF-15H was the final tipping point for my choice. Other than output, the reviewer seemed to like the PB12 just as much.
The lower distortion, how much of which is audibly noticeable, was another small point.
I personally wouldn't go for the EX if not on sale vs VTF-3 MK4 or PB12...but if it were on sale this might very well have ended differently.
The extra output is something I will not take advantage of all that often if nearly at all, but then again I have a neighbor sharing a main wall and my space is relatively small and has nice room gain.
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post #55 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Personally, I can see the merit in both approaches.

As can I. Just wanted to point out that it isn't exactly a clear cut case of the Outlaw being superior, like if we were talking about the LFM-1 EX versus the M8.
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post #56 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You can read and study those graphs, the ones for the PB12-NSD and the EX, and still be no better off at making a decision. It's very close.

......

cel, this is what I am arguing against, its not 'close' at all, the performance delta between the two in Ricci's measurements is too large to ignore. Personally, I was surprised when I saw that, I was expecting them to be much closer in performance.

Maybe SVS is using such a heavy driver that it would need a lot more power to match the output of the Outlaw, but that is speculation. Or maybe SVS is just being really conservative with their limiter. Whatever the case, the driver and its amp arrangement make for more linear performance and less distortion per db, but the costs in output are substantial. In the most commonly used range of subwoofer bass, 30 hz to 80, the Outlaw has twice the output of the PB12, and at many points more than three times as much. I should point out the advantages of the PB12 can be had in a less expensive sub, the Rythmik FV12. If you are willing to sacrifice output for low distortion, I can not think of a reason not to go for the Rythmik over the SVS. Probably not many SVS fans will like me saying this, but I am just being honest here. There is no doubt that SVS makes great subs, and I do think they are a great value and a terrific choice, but this is my interpretation of the available data.
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post #57 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Substantial is somewhat relative....only dedicated HT's are pushing 115dB or more of sub 70Hz. Not average living rooms with WAF factor or GAF.
You are discounting the distortion numbers as well...many reviewers have complained of distortion and port chuffing when pushed to those extra dB's they hold over the HSU and SVS.
The Rythmik is a full step down from all three in my humble opinion. The VTF-2 MK4 would be the matching competitor, again in my opinion. It can not perform overall with the PB-12.
I guess it is a great thing that we have choices.
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post #58 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

cel, this is what I am arguing against, its not 'close' at all, the performance delta between the two in Ricci's measurements is too large to ignore. Personally, I was surprised when I saw that, I was expecting them to be much closer in performance.

Maybe SVS is using such a heavy driver that it would need a lot more power to match the output of the Outlaw, but that is speculation. Or maybe SVS is just being really conservative with their limiter. Whatever the case, the driver and its amp arrangement make for more linear performance and less distortion per db, but the costs in output are substantial. In the most commonly used range of subwoofer bass, 30 hz to 80, the Outlaw has twice the output of the PB12, and at many points more than three times as much. I should point out the advantages of the PB12 can be had in a less expensive sub, the Rythmik FV12. If you are willing to sacrifice output for low distortion, I can not think of a reason not to go for the Rythmik over the SVS. Probably not many SVS fans will like me saying this, but I am just being honest here. There is no doubt that SVS makes great subs, and I do think they are a great value and a terrific choice, but this is my interpretation of the available data.

I change my mind constantly as to which I would think I would like best if I had all three in the room. Depends on what rubric you grade these subs by. And I'm actually influenced by thinking I will eventually have dual subs. So what's best for that situation.

Right now, I'm thinking the SVS because of the flat frequency curve and the low distortion. I agree that the EX has more output. However to get the EX fairly flat with an EQ, you'd lose a lot of that extra output from 30hz on up (unless room gain gave you a bunch of boost in the lower frequencies).

But I'm sure I'll change my mind again in another few weeks. And no. I will not be buying an SVS or HSU if I go dual, but another EX

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post #59 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Substantial is somewhat relative....only dedicated HT's are pushing 115dB or more of sub 70Hz. Not average living rooms with WAF factor or GAF.
You are discounting the distortion numbers as well...many reviewers have complained of distortion and port chuffing when pushed to those extra dB's they hold over the HSU and SVS.
The Rythmik is a full step down from all three in my humble opinion. The VTF-2 MK4 would be the matching competitor, again in my opinion. It can not perform overall with the PB-12.
I guess it is a great thing that we have choices.

The Outlaw does suffer from chuffing at high volumes in low frequencies, at least in max extension mode, I can attest to that. The Hsu, not nearly as much. I don't think the Rythmik would be a step down, in some ways it is better than the Hsu and Outlaw, and I think that advantage would hold over the PB12 as well. It doesn't seem like it should be, because of the price difference, but it is a really good subwoofer. It would be nice to pit one against the PB12 to see how the servo technology compares against SVS's digital amp driver control.
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post #60 of 163 Old 02-20-2012, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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The driver specs don't seem all that great on the FV12....but that isn't everything.
Anyone have some clean SPL sweep numbers for that sub?
If I had a hard $500 cap and wanted to buy now instead of waiting for the next LFM-1 EX sale, the FV12 would be the ticket most likely.
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