Anyone ever regret buying a SVS PB-12NSD ? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 02-20-2012, 05:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I change my mind constantly as to which I would think I would like best if I had all three in the room. Depends on what rubric you grade these subs by. And I'm actually influenced by thinking I will eventually have dual subs. So what's best for that situation.

If you intend to go multiple subs and are building a setup for the long term, I would look at getting some sealed subs, depending on your room. The gradual low-end roll off from sealed could add up better to give you higher deep frequency output than if you went for ported subs. Think Hsu ULS-15, Rythmik F15, SVS SB13, multiples of those would negate the advantages of their ported brothers.

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Right now, I'm thinking the SVS because of the flat frequency curve and the low distortion. I agree that the EX has more output. However to get the EX fairly flat with an EQ, you'd lose a lot of that extra output from 30hz on up (unless room gain gave you a bunch of boost in the lower frequencies).

You don't lose the headroom from the Outlaw by EQing it, it is always there available to you. If you turn the volume up past its 20 hz limits, it will get louder, but just not at 20 hz. Also keep in mind that the Outlaw's FR is actually relatively flat, not as ruler flat as the PB12 but better than most subs.

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But I'm sure I'll change my mind again in another few weeks. And no. I will not be buying an SVS or HSU if I go dual, but another EX

Get two of those, set them up for front-firing and run them in max output mode is my advice, my god will those things pound, just brutal bass. And the closer you position them to you, the better it gets. Play some Drum'n'bass or dubstep with the subs running 6 db hot, that is an experience to behold, bass nirvana.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Get two of those, set them up for front-firing and run them in max output mode is my advice, my god will those things pound, just brutal bass. And the closer you position them to you, the better it gets. Play some Drum'n'bass or dubstep with the subs running 6 db hot, that is an experience to behold, bass nirvana.

Reminds me of my teenage years with a 6 cu ft sealed box in my trunk with two JL 15w3's on a Comp. Zapco amp. (132dB)
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

The driver specs don't seem all that great on the FV12....but that isn't everything.
Anyone have some clean SPL sweep numbers for that sub?
If I had a hard $500 cap and wanted to buy now instead of waiting for the next LFM-1 EX sale, the FV12 would be the ticket most likely.

The FV12 can't quite get as loud as the VTF3 or LFM-1 EX, but it can pound, no doubt about that. I don't know about it's driver specs, but given the output limitations of the PB12, I wouldn't be surprised if the FV12 could at least match it. On the other hand, I think the SVS may have an advantage at the bottom end of its tuning point, 20 hz, although the FV12 isn't too shabby for 20 hz either.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Get two of those, set them up for front-firing and run them in max output mode is my advice, my god will those things pound, just brutal bass. And the closer you position them to you, the better it gets. Play some Drum'n'bass or dubstep with the subs running 6 db hot, that is an experience to behold, bass nirvana.

Yeah. It's going to be a while for me. I have to save up for braces from the orthodontist (not for me). Man does that cost a lot, as much as a whole home audio setup (lol).

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Old 02-20-2012, 07:11 PM
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shadyJ,

One thing that bares mentioning: you do lose headroom when you EQ a sub, especially if you boost down low. You'll mostly lose amplifier headroom. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of your comment regarding the Outlaw, but what I just said is true and applies to any subwoofer. When you EQ you do limit headroom.

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Old 02-20-2012, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

shadyJ,

One thing that bares mentioning: you do lose headroom when you EQ a sub, especially if you boost down low. You'll mostly lose amplifier headroom. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of your comment regarding the Outlaw, but what I just said is true and applies to any subwoofer. When you EQ you do limit headroom.

+1

If I boost 20hz on the EX, which has a CEA1010 max output of 102.1 in ME, enough to make it loud enough to level with 31.5 hz, then when the EX reaches it's CEA1010 limit of 102.1, then 31.5hz is at 102.1. So the limit of the frequency response when it's flattened by an EQ is whatever the limit is of the frequency which has the lowest limit in the frequency range. On the SVS, the lowest limit from 20hz on up is 20hz at 103.2. So with an EQ'd flat response from 20hz on up--ignoring room acoustic effects--the SVS has equal output.

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Old 02-20-2012, 08:17 PM
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Appears that if you're going to EQ an Outlaw sub, you're better off buying an SVS. Why dink with the EX and spend more - I'd just spend more money buying a better bells and whistles sub
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

shadyJ,

One thing that bares mentioning: you do lose headroom when you EQ a sub, especially if you boost down low. You'll mostly lose amplifier headroom. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of your comment regarding the Outlaw, but what I just said is true and applies to any subwoofer. When you EQ you do limit headroom.

Nuance, my understanding is that boosting a certain frequency will diminish headroom on other frequencies only if they are being played simultaneously. correct me if I am wrong on this point.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Nuance, my understanding is that boosting a certain frequency will diminish headroom on other frequencies only if they are being played simultaneously. correct me if I am wrong on this point.

That is also how I understood it, yes (I could be wrong). This happens more often than you'd think, though. However, boosting can vastly limit amplifier headroom, and if said amp clips hard that signal will be sent to the subwoofer which could result in damage. You're basically reducing headroom regarding all things subwoofer, not just the frequency response.

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Old 02-21-2012, 07:40 AM
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I'd be interested in reading about anybody's experiences with getting a new PB12-NSD to bottom out, or to misbehave, generally.

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

I'd be interested in reading about anybody's experiences with getting a new PB12-NSD to bottom out, or to misbehave, generally.

Won't the limiter prevent that? It reaches a point where it won't go higher in volume because of the limiter, but if the limiter is set correctly, you can't actually bottom it out. Ricci talks about the limiter in his review.

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Old 02-21-2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


Won't the limiter prevent that? It reaches a point where it won't go higher in volume because of the limiter, but if the limiter is set correctly, you can't actually bottom it out. Ricci talks about the limiter in his review.

Correct, though that only applies to subs with limiters. I don't know if a limiter prevents amp clipping, though.

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Old 02-21-2012, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Won't the limiter prevent that? It reaches a point where it won't go higher in volume because of the limiter, but if the limiter is set correctly, you can't actually bottom it out. Ricci talks about the limiter in his review.


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Old 02-21-2012, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post


On the other hand, you are still technically clipping the signal, although perhaps in a more acceptable way.

^ This was my line of thinking.

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Old 02-21-2012, 09:38 AM
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So it is true, all Outlaw orders were pushed to March. Now the question is VTF3 MK4 or the SVS
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:53 AM
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All 3 are pretty similar in output. I've only heard the hsu and outlaw. Very impressed with Hsu's service. Enough said from me lol

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

So it is true, all Outlaw orders were pushed to March. Now the question is VTF3 MK4 or the SVS

Flip a coin. Very similar performing products, great companies, great customer service. I just bought an HSU sub but have owned SVS products in the past and have nothing but good things to say about either company.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:36 AM
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Just pulled the trigger on the HSU
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:39 AM
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Just pulled the trigger on the HSU

Congrats. The great thing about HSU is they go the extra mile. Once you receive it, don't be afraid to reachout to them regarding placement and different tuning options. They spent about 20 mins on the phone with me discussing my different placement options and how to get the most out of the sub.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

On the other hand, you are still technically clipping the signal, although perhaps in a more acceptable way.

I'd disagree. Clipping has a fairly speciric meaning: THD in excess of whatever your chosen threshold is (0.1%, 1%, sometimes 3% for tube amps . . . )

A limiter simply turns down the input signal, like a volume control, or like the compressors used in recording and mastering music. That doesn't clip the signal, in the technical sense. It does change it, though.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

So it is true, all Outlaw orders were pushed to March. Now the question is VTF3 MK4 or the SVS

Same situation here.

BTW, as I am new to these league of subs (coming from an 8" energy from 2001)...would these subs be too much for a 3400^3 room?

Reason I ask is the HSU site shows the VTF3 for "huge rooms"...while the VTF2 for my sized room. I will be 100% movies, with the sub next to the couch (in the center of the room unfortunately), with energy take 5's and a Denon 2112ci.

Thanks!!
Paul
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:59 AM
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BTW, as I am new to these league of subs (coming from an 8" energy from 2001)...would these subs be too much for a 3400^3 room?

IMO: Nope!
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by gibsonpa View Post

Same situation here.

BTW, as I am new to these league of subs (coming from an 8" energy from 2001)...would these subs be too much for a 3400^3 room?

Reason I ask is the HSU site shows the VTF3 for "huge rooms"...while the VTF2 for my sized room. I will be 100% movies, with the sub next to the couch (in the center of the room unfortunately), with energy take 5's and a Denon 2112ci.

Thanks!!
Paul

Give HSU a call and discuss with them. If your sub is going to be nearfield, the VTF-2 may be fine.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Well I disagree with your disagreement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clippin..._processing%29



In this case, the threshold exceeded is simply the maximum output designated by the engineers at SVS; since the limiter obviously limits the signal after the threshold is exceeded, the signal is clipped.

EDIT:
Also, regarding clipping amplifiers:

http://sound.westhost.com/clipping.htm


A limiter is nothing but an automated volume control though. If we were prescient and really fast we could do exactly what the limiter does by adjusting the volume control on the back of the sub. That's not clipping anything, it's adjusting the volume control.


I don't much care how you define clipping, but turning down the volume does not equal clipping under any definition of the term. Otherwise it would make sense for me to say "my amp was distorting, so I clipped the input signal to reduce the distortion." Nonsense.

I don't want to go round and round on this and you can educate yourself on the meaning of clipping if you want to. But it's impossible to have rational conversations when we take part of the definition of a word and then twist it to mean something it doesn't.

So if you want to use a limiter to keep an amp frome distorting, you set the limiter to kick in BEFORE the level gets to the level of distiortion. Then the signal is kept within the range that the amplifier can handle without clipping. You would not design the circuit to start limiting after it's too late. The amp doesn't clip (and I'll stand by my admittedly shorthand version of the definition - - every amp in the world starts distorting the signal at some point in its power curve, but we do not call it clipping until it reaches whatever THD level we've decided to use for "clipping." Wander over to Stereophile.com and look at the measurements sections of a few amp reviews, and I think you'll quickly see what I'm talking about.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Except that you're not actually adjusting the volume control, and that's why its technically considered clipping, even if it is a relatively benign form compared to what you consider clipping. The signal goes through the limiter and anything above a certain threshold gets compressed, thus the waveform gets a haircut. That's clipping.



You mean like NAD soft clipping???

http://nadelectronics.com/articles/S...nical-Features




Yeah, I hate it when people link to definitions that don't help my argument too.

So are you saying that every CD that was mastered using a limiter or compressor is clipped? I just don't think so. By your definition, probalby over half of the individual tracks on any modern recording are "clipped" because they were limited or compressed at recording and the overall mix is itself re-clipped because it's been passed through compression and limiting. It's just not correcct, but you go on and be as wrong as ya want to.

Not like nad soft clipping at all. That's a whole different kind of thing.

The SVS system is not using live real time info about what the amp or speaker are doing (that's more like servo tech). Instead what SVS, Paradigm and a bunch of others have gone to is a limiter that works based on a software model of the way the amp (and driver) behave under various conditions. They turn the signal down when those conditions are approached in order to avoid the distortion.

Again, I don't understand how it's clipping if an automatic device simply turns down the level but not clipping if I use my fingers to do the exact same thing electronically. Just doesn't add up. Yo go on though

As to your last point your linked definitions are either too incomplete to be meaningful or not in any wayinconsistent with what I said. It's a little like if I found a definition that said 'red is a color" and announced I will henceforth use the word "reed" to denote the color you see in the sky on a cloudless summer day. My personalized definition is not inconsistent with the little bit of the definition of red on which I am relying, but it's still wrong.

In case, contrary to all indications, you have at least enough interest to click a link hand fed to you, here http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...r-measurements are measurements of an amp. You can scroll down and see power versus noise plus distortion curves. You can see in figure 5 how the noise dominates at low levels, gettin lower and lower as a percentage of total output, then at a particular point, distortion starts taking over and the THD goes up FAST. That's the behavior that your definitions are attempting to describe. But nobody calls the break point where distortion starts to rise "clipping." Instead, we call it clipping somewhere on the fast rising part of the curve, whether it's at .1 percent, or 1 percent (stereophile's typical number) which would make the amp's power at clipping roughly either 85 watts or 100 watts at 8 ohms. The knee of the curve is just under .001%, at a bit under 60 watts.

Done arguing.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post


What don't you understand? You adjusting the volume control along with the source signal determine what the waveform should look like. That's the reference, thus you adjusting the volume doesn't qualify as clipping. A limiter in your subwoofers preamp coming along after that and saying "your subwoofer can't play this loud, I'm cutting the voltage to its amplifier" means that the signal you expected to play didn't, and it means your reference waveform got clipped.


No. Just no. My sense is you're not really trying to be wilfully ignorant so I'll try one more time. Here's a video of a clipped signal.


http://video.search.yahoo.com/search...01&fr2=piv-web

It doesn't matter whether the clipping occurs in the preamp or in the amp, clipped is clipped.

I understand digital clipping may sound different (although it doesn't look a ton different to me just causally seeing a digitally clipped waveform, but I haven't zoomed one way in) but I never clipped my DAW so I can't say I have personal experience with the sound.

And yes I understand that there is digital clipping in loudness war material. What you clearly do not understand is that digital clipping is not caused by a limiter or compressor. In fact, a limiter prevents a lot of clipping tha twould otherwise occur. Digital clipping is simply when the input signal exceeds the level that the available bits can capture. So they go to max, and no higher, and it looks to my eyes a lot like very severe clipping in the analog domain. But again, the digital clipping is in spite of, not because of, the limiting.

In fact, if you fully understood what you are saying, you would know that you are in effect arguing that the sub's limiter prevents distortion by applying the exact same kind of distortion to the signal, which as I have said is utter nonsense.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:38 PM
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I'm sorry I brought this up guys - didn't mean to start a debate. I did learn something, though.

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Old 02-21-2012, 05:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

That is also how I understood it, yes (I could be wrong). This happens more often than you'd think, though. However, boosting can vastly limit amplifier headroom, and if said amp clips hard that signal will be sent to the subwoofer which could result in damage. You're basically reducing headroom regarding all things subwoofer, not just the frequency response.

Yes, I thought as much. I don't think one normally runs into these circumstances though, although Audyssey's dynamic EQ has been known to give some big bumps in absurdly low frequencies. It doesn't really affect my point about headroom in spite of EQing, it will still be mostly there, even if you do ramp up the signal at 20 hz. Remember, the vast majority of bass, even movie bass, does not dip that low. EQing is far more more likely to be adversely affecting on the sub with a overall lower output capability anyway, in this case that is going to be the PB12, not the Outlaw. EQing does not place them on the same footing.

Also, about your comment on a clipped signal potentially damaging either of these subs, if you are talking about the drivers, I think with these modals, its unlikely, and with the SVS sub my understanding is its impossible. If you are talking about subs in general, than yeah, it can be a potential hazard.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:33 PM
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I have been happy with my 10 day old PB12 NSD. It replaced a Sunfire True Signature sub.

Panny 60VT60 Acurus 200x3
Pioneer Elite 05FD &51FD
2 Oppo 83's Pioneer Elite DV 59AVI
Paradigm 490cc B&W 685 S2's
Pioneer Elite SC61 SVS SB13Ultra
2 S-VHS VCR's B&W CM10 S2's
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:34 PM
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Wow HSU is no joke, ordered the sub this morning on the phone and just a little bit ago got a email from Fed Ex stating its been shipped with tracking number.
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