Anyone ever regret buying a SVS PB-12NSD ? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Well I disagree with your disagreement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clippin..._processing%29



In this case, the threshold exceeded is simply the maximum output designated by the engineers at SVS; since the limiter obviously limits the signal after the threshold is exceeded, the signal is clipped.

EDIT:
Also, regarding clipping amplifiers:

http://sound.westhost.com/clipping.htm


A limiter is nothing but an automated volume control though. If we were prescient and really fast we could do exactly what the limiter does by adjusting the volume control on the back of the sub. That's not clipping anything, it's adjusting the volume control.


I don't much care how you define clipping, but turning down the volume does not equal clipping under any definition of the term. Otherwise it would make sense for me to say "my amp was distorting, so I clipped the input signal to reduce the distortion." Nonsense.

I don't want to go round and round on this and you can educate yourself on the meaning of clipping if you want to. But it's impossible to have rational conversations when we take part of the definition of a word and then twist it to mean something it doesn't.

So if you want to use a limiter to keep an amp frome distorting, you set the limiter to kick in BEFORE the level gets to the level of distiortion. Then the signal is kept within the range that the amplifier can handle without clipping. You would not design the circuit to start limiting after it's too late. The amp doesn't clip (and I'll stand by my admittedly shorthand version of the definition - - every amp in the world starts distorting the signal at some point in its power curve, but we do not call it clipping until it reaches whatever THD level we've decided to use for "clipping." Wander over to Stereophile.com and look at the measurements sections of a few amp reviews, and I think you'll quickly see what I'm talking about.
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post #92 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

That's not clipping anything, it's adjusting the volume control.

Except that you're not actually adjusting the volume control, and that's why its technically considered clipping, even if it is a relatively benign form compared to what you consider clipping. The signal goes through the limiter and anything above a certain threshold gets compressed, thus the waveform gets a haircut. That's clipping.

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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

So if you want to use a limiter to keep an amp frome distorting, you set the limiter to kick in BEFORE the level gets to the level of distiortion.

You mean like NAD soft clipping???

http://nadelectronics.com/articles/S...nical-Features


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I don't much care how you define clipping

Yeah, I hate it when people link to definitions that don't help my argument too.
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post #93 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Except that you're not actually adjusting the volume control, and that's why its technically considered clipping, even if it is a relatively benign form compared to what you consider clipping. The signal goes through the limiter and anything above a certain threshold gets compressed, thus the waveform gets a haircut. That's clipping.



You mean like NAD soft clipping???

http://nadelectronics.com/articles/S...nical-Features




Yeah, I hate it when people link to definitions that don't help my argument too.

So are you saying that every CD that was mastered using a limiter or compressor is clipped? I just don't think so. By your definition, probalby over half of the individual tracks on any modern recording are "clipped" because they were limited or compressed at recording and the overall mix is itself re-clipped because it's been passed through compression and limiting. It's just not correcct, but you go on and be as wrong as ya want to.

Not like nad soft clipping at all. That's a whole different kind of thing.

The SVS system is not using live real time info about what the amp or speaker are doing (that's more like servo tech). Instead what SVS, Paradigm and a bunch of others have gone to is a limiter that works based on a software model of the way the amp (and driver) behave under various conditions. They turn the signal down when those conditions are approached in order to avoid the distortion.

Again, I don't understand how it's clipping if an automatic device simply turns down the level but not clipping if I use my fingers to do the exact same thing electronically. Just doesn't add up. Yo go on though

As to your last point your linked definitions are either too incomplete to be meaningful or not in any wayinconsistent with what I said. It's a little like if I found a definition that said 'red is a color" and announced I will henceforth use the word "reed" to denote the color you see in the sky on a cloudless summer day. My personalized definition is not inconsistent with the little bit of the definition of red on which I am relying, but it's still wrong.

In case, contrary to all indications, you have at least enough interest to click a link hand fed to you, here http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...r-measurements are measurements of an amp. You can scroll down and see power versus noise plus distortion curves. You can see in figure 5 how the noise dominates at low levels, gettin lower and lower as a percentage of total output, then at a particular point, distortion starts taking over and the THD goes up FAST. That's the behavior that your definitions are attempting to describe. But nobody calls the break point where distortion starts to rise "clipping." Instead, we call it clipping somewhere on the fast rising part of the curve, whether it's at .1 percent, or 1 percent (stereophile's typical number) which would make the amp's power at clipping roughly either 85 watts or 100 watts at 8 ohms. The knee of the curve is just under .001%, at a bit under 60 watts.

Done arguing.
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post #94 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

So are you saying that every CD that was mastered using a limiter or compressor is clipped?

A lot of CDs today do feature clipped waveforms as producers push the volume higher and higher, and run into the limits (the threshold) of dynamic range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Quote:
Digital media cannot output signals higher than digital full scale (0 dBFS), so whenever the peak of a signal is pushed past this point, it results in the wave form becoming clipped. If clipping occurs in a recording, it makes the recording sound distorted.

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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Again, I don't understand how it's clipping if an automatic device simply turns down the level but not clipping if I use my fingers to do the exact same thing electronically.

What don't you understand? You adjusting the volume control along with the source signal determine what the waveform should look like. That's the reference, thus you adjusting the volume doesn't qualify as clipping. A limiter in your subwoofers preamp coming along after that and saying "your subwoofer can't play this loud, I'm cutting the voltage to its amplifier" means that the signal you expected to play didn't, and it means your reference waveform got clipped.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

In case, contrary to all indications, you have at least enough interest to click a link hand fed to you, here http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...r-measurements are measurements of an amp.

Perhaps you've not noticed, but clipping does apply to more than just amplifiers running out of juice and clipping the waveform.

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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Done arguing.

What, you don't enjoy arguing semantics????
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post #95 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post


What don't you understand? You adjusting the volume control along with the source signal determine what the waveform should look like. That's the reference, thus you adjusting the volume doesn't qualify as clipping. A limiter in your subwoofers preamp coming along after that and saying "your subwoofer can't play this loud, I'm cutting the voltage to its amplifier" means that the signal you expected to play didn't, and it means your reference waveform got clipped.


No. Just no. My sense is you're not really trying to be wilfully ignorant so I'll try one more time. Here's a video of a clipped signal.


http://video.search.yahoo.com/search...01&fr2=piv-web

It doesn't matter whether the clipping occurs in the preamp or in the amp, clipped is clipped.

I understand digital clipping may sound different (although it doesn't look a ton different to me just causally seeing a digitally clipped waveform, but I haven't zoomed one way in) but I never clipped my DAW so I can't say I have personal experience with the sound.

And yes I understand that there is digital clipping in loudness war material. What you clearly do not understand is that digital clipping is not caused by a limiter or compressor. In fact, a limiter prevents a lot of clipping tha twould otherwise occur. Digital clipping is simply when the input signal exceeds the level that the available bits can capture. So they go to max, and no higher, and it looks to my eyes a lot like very severe clipping in the analog domain. But again, the digital clipping is in spite of, not because of, the limiting.

In fact, if you fully understood what you are saying, you would know that you are in effect arguing that the sub's limiter prevents distortion by applying the exact same kind of distortion to the signal, which as I have said is utter nonsense.
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post #96 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 01:38 PM
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I'm sorry I brought this up guys - didn't mean to start a debate. I did learn something, though.


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post #97 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

What you clearly do not understand is that digital clipping is not caused by a limiter or compressor. In fact, a limiter prevents a lot of clipping tha twould otherwise occur. Digital clipping is simply when the input signal exceeds the level that the available bits can capture. So they go to max, and no higher, and it looks to my eyes a lot like very severe clipping in the analog domain.

Let me try this one more time:

If you're following my line of thought, I agree that the DSP limiter is preventing the AMP from clipping the signal. I even agree that this is rather beneficial, as I'd rather not hear my subwoofer's plate amp hard clip.

However, my contention is that the DSP is itself clipping the input signal in the digital domain in the same way that a CD suffering the effects of the loudness wars would clip a waveform that exceeded the dynamic range of the CD. With the CD, the mixing engineer/producer pushes the volume/amplitude beyond the point where you simply cannot record a higher amplitude (0dBFS) and the waveform gets clipped. With the subwoofer, the end user pushes the volume to the point where the limiter (with its thresholds set by SVS) says "no mas", and the waveform leaving the DSP is clipped relative to the input waveform. In one case, the waveform is clipped because you've exceeded the limits of the CD format. In the other case, the waveform is clipped because you've exceeded the limits preset by SVS. In both cases though, the waveform is absolutely clipped, whether "hard" or "soft".
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post #98 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I'm sorry I brought this up guys - didn't mean to start a debate. I did learn something, though.

Not to worry, it's all semantics anyways. Whether you want to call it "compression", "limiting", or "soft clipping", it's the same effect in this case.
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post #99 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
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That is also how I understood it, yes (I could be wrong). This happens more often than you'd think, though. However, boosting can vastly limit amplifier headroom, and if said amp clips hard that signal will be sent to the subwoofer which could result in damage. You're basically reducing headroom regarding all things subwoofer, not just the frequency response.

Yes, I thought as much. I don't think one normally runs into these circumstances though, although Audyssey's dynamic EQ has been known to give some big bumps in absurdly low frequencies. It doesn't really affect my point about headroom in spite of EQing, it will still be mostly there, even if you do ramp up the signal at 20 hz. Remember, the vast majority of bass, even movie bass, does not dip that low. EQing is far more more likely to be adversely affecting on the sub with a overall lower output capability anyway, in this case that is going to be the PB12, not the Outlaw. EQing does not place them on the same footing.

Also, about your comment on a clipped signal potentially damaging either of these subs, if you are talking about the drivers, I think with these modals, its unlikely, and with the SVS sub my understanding is its impossible. If you are talking about subs in general, than yeah, it can be a potential hazard.
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post #100 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 05:33 PM
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I have been happy with my 10 day old PB12 NSD. It replaced a Sunfire True Signature sub.

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post #101 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 05:34 PM
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Wow HSU is no joke, ordered the sub this morning on the phone and just a little bit ago got a email from Fed Ex stating its been shipped with tracking number.
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post #102 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 06:23 PM
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Wow HSU is no joke, ordered the sub this morning on the phone and just a little bit ago got a email from Fed Ex stating its been shipped with tracking number.

I got mine early morning on the fourth day after getting a tracking no.
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post #103 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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My PB12 comes Thursday, I'm very much ready for it!
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post #104 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 06:48 PM
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Don't forget to post a lot of Pictures, E-A-G-L-E-S! Still not many pictures around of the new PB12-NSD even though it's been out for a number of months.
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post #105 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Will do, I'll take shots from unpacking through to playing.
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post #106 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

Wow HSU is no joke, ordered the sub this morning on the phone and just a little bit ago got a email from Fed Ex stating its been shipped with tracking number.

They shipped my new sub on President's Day. They always answer the phone and take the time to answer questions too and they never seem put not on the phone like some other companies.

I would say the same for SVS. Can't say the same for other ID companies.
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post #107 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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SVS is open on the weekends too, which is a big plus. Unsure if you contact HSU if they would still get back to you on the weekend even thought their site says closed.
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post #108 of 163 Old 02-21-2012, 10:00 PM
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SVS is open on the weekends too, which is a big plus. Unsure if you contact HSU if they would still get back to you on the weekend even thought their site says closed.

SVS hA great customer service. I have owned their products in the past and have always had great support and a great warranty. Total peace of mind.
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post #109 of 163 Old 02-22-2012, 05:49 PM
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SVS hA great customer service. I have owned their products in the past and have always had great support and a great warranty. Total peace of mind.

I agree.

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post #110 of 163 Old 02-22-2012, 07:09 PM
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I own a sub from both companies and have wonderful things to say about both
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post #111 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Like a kid on Christmas I took the afternoon off. Within twenty minutes of being home the doorbell rang!
I was very close to being so disappointed. The first few songs were completely lackluster. Then, .
Something must have needed warming up.
Now, of course my battery in my SPL meter died since the last time I used it, so no measurements yet.
I will be posting pics this evening and some numbers.
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post #112 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 12:14 PM
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Congrats! Awesome!! Has your roof and/or floor imploded yet? How do you like it thus far? Has it met your expectation(s) ?
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post #113 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Like a kid on Christmas I took the afternoon off. Within twenty minutes of being home the doorbell rang!
I was very close to being so disappointed. The first few songs were completely lackluster. Then, .
Something must have needed warming up.
Now, of course my battery in my SPL meter died since the last time I used it, so no measurements yet.
I will be posting pics this evening and some numbers.

Haha. Awesome. The SVS units have flat bass response. It took me a bit to get used to.


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post #114 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

The first few songs were completely lackluster. Then, .
Something must have needed warming up.

FWIW, I found that my PB12-NSD sounded better/stronger after a few hours of break-in.

YMMV.

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The SVS units have flat bass response.

Yup. I had a change to graph the FR in my room with my buddy's Omnimic and, IIRC correctly, the curve was pretty flat, with a good-sized hump between ~18-23Hz (tuning frequency + room gain?). I never found the PB12 to have as much mid-bass "slam" as I thought it should, and I guess that's because of i) the flat FR and ii) the size of my room. (Hence my current dual 18s. ) I think dual PB12s would have done the trick...unfortunately, I never had the chance to test out my theory.


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post #115 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Haha. Awesome. The SVS units have flat bass response. It took me a bit to get used to.

Im actually speaking of output, before my meter died I saw a 7dB increase on a particular song. It was the very first song played and then the 7th after I noticed the 5th and 6th both started increasing dB significantly.
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post #116 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The 5lb grille ontop of the PB12-NSD, which isnext to oneof my old Infinity 8's.





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post #117 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 03:42 PM
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Sweet...


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post #118 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 04:28 PM
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I'm no expert but that looks like a very well crafted/made subwoofer for the money. Thanks for sharing the pics!

How does it sound?!?
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post #119 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds very solid, disappears quickly for a ported sub and it rumbles all the hanging "things" and even some things secured to wood.
Much more to come...
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post #120 of 163 Old 02-23-2012, 04:53 PM
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I guess the name of this thread should be changed to I love my new PB12nsd.
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