Anyone ever regret buying a SVS PB-12NSD ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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To those of you who have auditioned and or owned an SVS PB12-NSD, did anyone ever regret their choice? As in, they ended up going bigger to find what they were looking for?
(for say 2500 cu ft spaces or less)
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post #2 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 11:05 AM
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I have owned both a PB10-NSD and a PB12-NSD (the older, BASH-equipped models). Both subs were awesome performers for the money. The only reason I eventually sold my PB12 was because I needed a bit more oomph in my newly-finished, laminate-over-concrete, ~3,375 cu.ft. basement HT room.

But I don't ever regret having owned either SVS sub.


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post #3 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 11:21 AM
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Get the biggest one you can afford and never regret. Saves money in the long run
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post #4 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 11:46 AM
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I started out with the Bash PB12-NSD. I liked it but it wasn't quite enough for me. I also got it to make some strange noises when pushed really hard. I believe the newer Sledge models do have better control over the driver.

I did end up going with PB12-Plus. That was a nice upgrade.


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post #5 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by datranz View Post

Get the biggest one you can afford and never regret. Saves money in the long run

+1. Dealing with that right now
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post #6 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 12:10 PM
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Saves money in the long run

No Doubt!

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post #7 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 12:39 PM
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Does a VTF-3 MK4 have more oomph than the PB12-NSD?
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post #8 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datranz View Post

Get the biggest one you can afford and never regret. Saves money in the long run

Indeed. Based on the many posts I have seen from you, you are over thinking this. If your max budget is 1K then do the VTF-15H and enjoy. I doubt you will ever need 2 in that room and you will have a lot of power. You are losing valuable movie viewing time by over thinking

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post #9 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

Does a VTF-3 MK4 have more oomph than the PB12-NSD?

You'll never get a satisfactory answer to that question. They are the same class of sub. One might perform better in your room in one spot than other, or vice versa. Pick between those based on features, appearance, etc.

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post #10 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You'll never get a satisfactory answer to that question. They are the same class of sub. One might perform better in your room in one spot than other, or vice versa. Pick between those based on features, appearance, etc.

Do they both have the same reliability?
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post #11 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by datranz View Post

Get the biggest one you can afford and never regret. Saves money in the long run

+1

I intended to get a PB12nsd and ended up with a Plus and I am very happy I did
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post #12 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

Does a VTF-3 MK4 have more oomph than the PB12-NSD?

I'm know I'm going to take flak for this, but I think the VTF3 will have more oomph than the PB12. Take a look at these charts, specifically the CEA2010 Max clean RMS Subwoofer output from Josh Ricci's measurements. Compare the PB12-NSD's measurements to the Outlaw EX's. The Outlaw has more twice the clean output capability of the PB12 from 30 hz on up, at certain points a lot more. The VTF3 is a lot like the Outlaw EX, except more features and deeper bass extension. To the PB12's credit, it has an amazingly flat frequency response, but that won't be a big deal if your room correction EQ is going to be reshaping the FR anyway.
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post #13 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I'm know I'm going to take flak for this, but I think the VTF3 will have more oomph than the PB12. Take a look at these charts, specifically the CEA2010 Max clean RMS Subwoofer output from Josh Ricci's measurements. Compare the PB12-NSD's measurements to the Outlaw EX's. The Outlaw has more twice the clean output capability of the PB12 from 30 hz on up, at certain points a lot more. The VTF3 is a lot like the Outlaw EX, except more features and deeper bass extension. To the PB12's credit, it has an amazingly flat frequency response, but that won't be a big deal if your room correction EQ is going to be reshaping the FR anyway.



but that won't be a big deal if your room correction EQ is going to be reshaping the FR anyway

....this is something I do not understand, the rest I do.
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post #14 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

but that won't be a big deal if your room correction EQ is going to be reshaping the FR anyway

....this is something I do not understand, the rest I do.

The subwoofer's frequency response will be flat, but only in an anechoic setting, or semi-anechoic setting like an open outdoor area. When you place it in a room, the response will inevitably see some pretty severe peaks and dips. Most mid and higher end AVR's come with a room correction EQ like Audyssey or Yamaha's YPAO or Pioneer's MCACC just to name a few. This will measure the room's effect on the sub's frequency response and compensate for it by adjusting the outgoing signal to the sub. But the EQ itself doesn't know whether its compensating for the room's uneven frequency response or the sub's; you will end up with a corrected response regardless.

There are some real benefits to having a flat frequency response, but in this case the Outlaw has a headroom advantage at almost every frequency, and since neither sub will have a flat FR in-room and will get corrected by the AVR anyway, the SVS's flat frequency response advantage is negated.
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post #15 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Then in your opinion, the VTF3-MK4 vs LMF-1 EX?
I have a Denon with Audyssey.
Rectangular sealed room, wood framed with sliding glass doors on one end...~2100 cu ft.

I can't find any charts with multiple subs' spl readings that include the VTF3-MK4
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post #16 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I'm know I'm going to take flak for this, but I think the VTF3 will have more oomph than the PB12. Take a look at these charts, specifically the CEA2010 Max clean RMS Subwoofer output from Josh Ricci's measurements. Compare the PB12-NSD's measurements to the Outlaw EX's. The Outlaw has more twice the clean output capability of the PB12 from 30 hz on up, at certain points a lot more. The VTF3 is a lot like the Outlaw EX, except more features and deeper bass extension. To the PB12's credit, it has an amazingly flat frequency response, but that won't be a big deal if your room correction EQ is going to be reshaping the FR anyway.

+1

The only area I see the PB12nsd having an output advantage is down low and even then, the HSU can be retuned for max extension (at the expense of upper bass)if need be.
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post #17 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The subwoofer's frequency response will be flat, but only in an anechoic setting, or semi-anechoic setting like an open outdoor area. When you place it in a room, the response will inevitably see some pretty severe peaks and dips. Most mid and higher end AVR's come with a room correction EQ like Audyssey or Yamaha's YPAO or Pioneer's MCACC just to name a few. This will measure the room's effect on the sub's frequency response and compensate for it by adjusting the outgoing signal to the sub. But the EQ itself doesn't know whether its compensating for the room's uneven frequency response or the sub's; you will end up with a corrected response regardless.

There are some real benefits to having a flat frequency response, but in this case the Outlaw has a headroom advantage at almost every frequency, and since neither sub will have a flat FR in-room and will get corrected by the AVR anyway, the SVS's flat frequency response advantage is negated.

ShadyJ,

I don't doubt the above, but it makes me wonder. Why so much effort by speaker and sub manufacturers to try to make speakers flat if you can just throw together anything and room correction software will flatten it out. My gut tells me it is more complicated than that, but I don't have the knowledge to answer why.

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post #18 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Then in your opinion, the VTF3-MK4 vs LMF-1 EX?
I have a Denon with Audyssey.
Rectangular sealed room, wood framed with sliding glass doors on one end...~2100 cu ft.

I can't find any charts with multiple subs' spl readings that include the VTF3-MK4

I would give the edge to the HSU due to the extra port area over the outlaw as well as the extra tuning options including Q control and sealed mode. That said, if the Outlaw can be had for its $550 shipped sale price, it is a great value.
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post #19 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 05:04 PM
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The Outlaw would be my choice (at the sale price). It certainly has more output. I used to have the VTF-3 MK3 before buying the 15H. The MK3 was no slouch. It can rattle and shake a room just like the 15H. The Outlaw should be very close to the MK3/MK4. With that being said, the Outlaw-HSU-SVS should all be great performers in your room. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase any of them. Find the one with the best price and never look back.
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post #20 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Then in your opinion, the VTF3-MK4 vs LMF-1 EX?
I have a Denon with Audyssey.
Rectangular sealed room, wood framed with sliding glass doors on one end...~2100 cu ft.

I can't find any charts with multiple subs' spl readings that include the VTF3-MK4

EAGLES, both the VTF3 and Outlaw are killer subs. Both subs can blaze pretty nicely. I would take the VTF3 over the Outlaw though, mainly due to the longer, larger ports, with the Hsu can actually hit 16 hz with some pretty serious output. The Outlaw can get low, but not that low, at least not without chuffing with any serious output. The VTF3 also comes with a Q control and support for a sealed mode, but the sealed mode does not excite me, as one of the VTF3's greatest advantages is its port configuration. The improvements made on the mk4 modal don't look like they have affected the performance in any major way. Anyway, when you factor in the current sale price on the VTF3 and the Outlaw being backordered until late March, this decision is a no-brainer: go for the Hsu.
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post #21 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepen View Post

The Outlaw would be my choice (at the sale price). It certainly has more output. I used to have the VTF-3 MK3 before buying the 15H. The MK3 was no slouch. It can rattle and shake a room just like the 15H. The Outlaw should be very close to the MK3/MK4. With that being said, the Outlaw-HSU-SVS should all be great performers in your room. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase any of them. Find the one with the best price and never look back.

Thats the thing though, the Outlaw is sold out until March 26th. I placed my order back in Jan when it said estimated ship date Feb 27th and I don't even know if it got pushed back another month. They never sent me an email stating anything other than that I'm on the reserve list when I asked back in Jan. I would really like to know whats going on but they aint saying anything unless you call and ask which I'm going to be doing as soon as they open up tomorrow.
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post #22 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

ShadyJ,

I don't doubt the above, but it makes me wonder. Why so much effort by speaker and sub manufacturers to try to make speakers flat if you can just throw together anything and room correction software will flatten it out. My gut tells me it is more complicated than that, but I don't have the knowledge to answer why.

Aside from marketing reasons, the main advantage to having a flat response when you factor in room correction is that you know the sub has no weak spots. Lets say you have a big room response dip which is right on a same frequency as a dip in the sub's natural frequency response. Now you have to bring a heavy tax to a sub right at its weak spot, this could make for some major distortion.
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post #23 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Gabriel Gerena View Post

Indeed. Based on the many posts I have seen from you, you are over thinking this. If your max budget is 1K then do the VTF-15H and enjoy. I doubt you will ever need 2 in that room and you will have a lot of power. You are losing valuable movie viewing time by over thinking

Agreed! Over thinking is definitely present with E-A-G-L-E-S in this situation. Given the class of sub being looked at I think one would really be splitting hairs on the differences and will almost certainly be happy with either you go for. Pick the biggest, most powerful one you can afford and be done with it.

If you think hard enough and analyze deep enough, one could find things to nitpick with most any product.
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post #24 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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If the VTF3-MK4 is the same as the MK3 in terms of output across the board, does anyone have a link to the MK3's tested levels? To compare with the other options which I have seen the results for.
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post #25 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

If the VTF3-MK4 is the same as the MK3 in terms of output across the board, does anyone have a link to the MK3's tested levels? To compare with the other options which I have seen the results for.

Would this link work for ya?

http://www.hsuresearch.com/reviews/vtf3mk3rew.pdf
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post #26 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

If the VTF3-MK4 is the same as the MK3 in terms of output across the board, does anyone have a link to the MK3's tested levels? To compare with the other options which I have seen the results for.

Good test data:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...um-output.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...extension.html

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post #27 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 08:58 PM
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I feel like a cave man figuring out a math problem while looking at these graphs.
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post #28 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokenAshes View Post

I feel like a cave man figuring out a math problem while looking at these graphs.

You can read and study those graphs, the ones for the PB12-NSD and the EX, and still be no better off at making a decision. It's very close.

I will say this about the VTF-3.4. I think the sealed sub mode is mostly gimmick, in that if someone wants a sealed sub, then buy one that was specifically designed to be a sealed sub. For most people it will be an unused option. And I suspect that the Q tuning it not super useful unless one is taking sophisticated measurements with a mic and REW or maybe through using the SMS-1 sub EQ. Otherwise, it will be mostly guess as to how to tune it that finely.

If I had to pick between the VTF-3.4 and the PB12-NSD, I'd probably go with the PB12-NSD for the lower distortion below 30hz.

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post #29 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I stayed up much too late and I'm taking a slight headache to bed...but I just ordered my SVS PB12-NSD. Time for a little sleep.
Thanks guys!
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post #30 of 163 Old 02-19-2012, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

If I had to pick between the VTF-3.4 and the PB12-NSD, I'd probably go with the PB12-NSD for the lower distortion below 30hz.

Well I was set on getting the VTF-3.4 and then you chirp in on this. GAH!!!! I thought one of the good things about the VTF-3.4 was how low it can go.
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