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post #61 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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If it is correct that there isn't enough of a db difference in the musical range to explain my preference (not sure it is or not, but just assuming for now) then it would mean trading my dual Caps for a single Submersive assuming I could sell for around 1200 each (passive caps are 1500 again).

Boy, that's a tough trade. I don't know.

It comes down to this. What is greater, my preference for nearfield subs for music (while still having subs in the front corners) or my preference for the Submersive because if I buy one I know I'm going to want 2 and then there is no way I'm spending more money on nearfield subs.

Contacting Counsil does sound like a good idea.

This is all so stupid though, I was listening to music last night and the bass was awesome.

But... I check the meter and I'm at 92db and it makes me nervous about my tinnitus. Nearfield I get the same tactile sensation but at about 10 db lower.

BTW, subs were at least 12 db hot.
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post #62 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 08:45 AM
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I am curious about whether the couple db difference influenced my own preference. One of the things that I noticed when listening to the SubM was that is seemed quite a bit louder. But, I wonder if this was more to do with the sound quality. By that I mean there was a very punchy feel to the sub. It was exquisitely tight and delivered a real and almost tactile hit to you. So did the sound signature of the sub make it appear louder? Or maybe I really was able to detect the couple db difference even though it was hours between auditions.

Not sure.

Maybe both.

It is hard for me to believe that I would be that sensitive to those few db's but I do have a pretty good ear so it is possible. I even wrote up in my review of the SubM that I wondered how much the perceived loudness influenced me in rating it as my clear winner. It was not even close for me. I loved loved loved it.
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post #63 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Jedi, you and I have the exact same opinion of how well the Submersive did, we sat right next to each other so it makes sense.
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post #64 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:07 AM
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I think I'd eat my hat if you guys could reliably detect 2dB of difference with two hours of separation between blind demo sessions...

and even if so ---

What about the max SPL difference - if you are under the impression you could detect the small variance in the frequency response graphs or spl despite the down time between - how do you account for the peak SPL measurement being 5dB higher on the JTR driver due to the different driver inductance. The JTR driver's efficiency rating goes up as the frequency goes up - which is why we battle knocking off that 60-70hz hump on the JTR passive sub models. The inductance properties of the JTR driver allowed it to have a full 5dB -7 dB more spl peak than most of the other drivers. So as the drivers were pushed through the demo material there was actually more spl produced by the JTR driver as evidenced by the SPL peaks. With you both suggesting you thought the submersive was louder I can't make heads or tails of that....


Now stepping aside of the notion that nobody in the blind voting pool really seemed to be able to reliably tell the difference between what was ported and sealed at the meet - they 'might' be able to tell a unique sonic signature of a particular sub model that they liked or disliked more so than a minor variance in FR or dB rating? -- now I'm grasping at straws --- and in the meantime destroying your thread carp. I'm sorry man --- tell me to knock it off if you'd like.

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post #65 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:17 AM
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I don't think max spl can even enter the argument since we don't know what content, scene, hz that occurred at....right?
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post #66 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I don't think max spl can even enter the argument since we don't know what content, scene, hz that occurred at.

somewhat agreed -- somewhat not -- I do know it happened somewhere in the movie content because I was glancing at the spl measurements during the music section and If I remember correctly the highest during the music section was like 116-117 for any of the subs - The JTR drivers also had the highest numbers following the music section by several dB as compared to the other subs. We also were using c-weighting for the spl peak measurements which would indicate the FR for the peak SPL measurements was likely over 50hz.

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post #67 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


somewhat agreed -- somewhat not -- I do know it happened somewhere in the movie content because I was glancing at the spl measurements during the music section and If I remember correctly the highest during the music section was like 116-117 for any of the subs - The JTR drivers also had the highest numbers following the music section by several dB as compared to the other subs. We also were using c-weighting for the spl peak measurements which would indicate the FR for the peak SPL measurements was likely over 50hz.

The mains were breaking my ears up there....
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post #68 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=Archaea;21692331] -- now I'm grasping at straws --- and in the meantime destroying your thread carp. I'm sorry man --- tell me to knock it off if you'd like.

Ha, are you kidding? I love these kinds of discussions.

That and I would love to know why the Submersive sounds so good to me, at least the 2 times I heard it that is.
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post #69 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:33 AM
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my input it this - - - I know is after hearing the Submersive HP in three different sub meets and on several occasions outside of sub meets - at my own house when Randy let me borrow it for a day, at counsil's house (he has five SubM HPs) on a couple occassions and also from owning the Captivator Pro pair since last summer/fall I believe there are sonic differences between the two subs and I think those sonic difference fall outside the sole silo of frequency response variance...

HuskerOmaha - when are you hosting your next meet so I can test my blind guessing skills?

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post #70 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

The mains were breaking my ears up there....

That's because the subs weren't hot enough. 10db+ or nothing for music.
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post #71 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

HuskerOmaha - when are you hosting your next meet so I can test my blind guessing skills?

Oh yes, I think we all know this needs to happen. I want Archaea put to the test!!
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post #72 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:53 AM
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Hmmmmm not sure. I would rather us find the largest dedicated home theater. So wait ten years until I build one in the new house, or we borrow w00lys or someone local.

I dont want to hear a can light vibrating or glassware or a door rattling when testing if at all possible.

I definitely will want to take my completed subs somewhere and dominate Archaeas underpowered Cap Pros though.
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post #73 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:56 AM
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Carp,

I think you should ask Jeff about integrating the Growlers with your Caps. The output is massive! I can't imagine that it would not be all kinds of overkill......which is awesome.

Plus, it is a horn which might act as a ported up high and sealed design down low (someone school me). So best of both worlds! Best bet is just to ask the pro (Jeff).
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post #74 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 12:17 PM
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Archaea,

I agree with your thoughts and that is what I was getting at in my previous post. I think the sound signature was the key component and that is the thing I am most concerned with now.

I have decided to put up a wall which makes my cubic footage go from 5500 to 2700. So loud and low is doable. It is the sound quality I am after.

Carp, not trying to derail, but Luke's suggestion about the local cabinet maker is especially timely. For budget reasons I have recently looked into getting something very similar to the dual opposed diy at the meet. I rated it almost as high as the SubM for music but changed my mind at the last second and changed my score. For movies I thought it was not nearly as impressive. However, I am thinking of getting 4 boxes and 8 drivers with the Seaton/Motor City Audio modified SA1000's. So I am thinking that two more boxes and 4 more drivers would change my mind about the movie performance. What do you guys think?

So back to my original thought on the sound quality. I can purchase some mfw-15's but I am concerned with using a cheap driver. On the other hand with 4 boxes and 8 drivers I hope that I am not pushing anything very hard in 2700 cubic feet. In addition, I liked the sound signature of the diy build at the meet for music and thought it was similar to the SubM. Don't get me wrong. It is NOT a SubM. If I could afford dual SubM I would not be posting. Just trying to get as close as I can.

Carp, forgive me for slightly derailing. I won't do it again. I just couldn't help myself since this has been all consuming dilemma for me lately.
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post #75 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Audyssey has Dynamic EQ. It adds a lot of bass and treble at lower volumes but backs off boosting bass and treble as you near reference. Its subjective, I've tried it and disliked it on my setup.

Actually, it maintains somewhat flat FR regardless of MV. The farther away from 0db MV you are the more processing it takes to do so. The closer you are to 0db MV the less processing it takes. Theory is at 0db MV no processing is needed because you are at reference level.

It requires a little getting use to, but i now listen at -15db MV and i get the bass i use to like at 0db reference level without the high level output of the mains and surrounds....

Ok, back to the show......
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post #76 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

Archaea,

I agree with your thoughts and that is what I was getting at in my previous post. I think the sound signature was the key component and that is the thing I am most concerned with now.

I have decided to put up a wall which makes my cubic footage go from 5500 to 2700. So loud and low is doable. It is the sound quality I am after.

Carp, not trying to derail, but Luke's suggestion about the local cabinet maker is especially timely. For budget reasons I have recently looked into getting something very similar to the dual opposed diy at the meet. I rated it almost as high as the SubM for music but changed my mind at the last second and changed my score. For movies I thought it was not nearly as impressive. However, I am thinking of getting 4 boxes and 8 drivers with the Seaton/Motor City Audio modified SA1000's. So I am thinking that two more boxes and 4 more drivers would change my mind about the movie performance. What do you guys think?

So back to my original thought on the sound quality. I can purchase some mfw-15's but I am concerned with using a cheap driver. On the other hand with 4 boxes and 8 drivers I hope that I am not pushing anything very hard in 2700 cubic feet. In addition, I liked the sound signature of the diy build at the meet for music and thought it was similar to the SubM. Don't get me wrong. It is NOT a SubM. If I could afford dual SubM I would not be posting. Just trying to get as close as I can.

Carp, forgive me for slightly derailing. I won't do it again. I just couldn't help myself since this has been all consuming dilemma for me lately.

Grant, no worries - derail any time. I'm interested to see what you end up doing and would love a demo when you get it all figured out, same goes to you when I get my sms-1 back and get everything set here.

I can't give you much advice on DIY, I've never been down that road hopefully Husker or someone else can chime in about that.
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post #77 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

Carp,

I think you should ask Jeff about integrating the Growlers with your Caps. The output is massive! I can't imagine that it would not be all kinds of overkill......which is awesome.

Plus, it is a horn which might act as a ported up high and sealed design down low (someone school me). So best of both worlds! Best bet is just to ask the pro (Jeff).

Growlers are definitely a consideration. 6.5 feet from each of those would be pretty crazy.

I PM'd Jeff and Mark to see what their thoughts were on my near-field needs (ahem... wants...) so I'll see what they say. I may end up emailing or calling though, I bet those guys get a ton of PM's.
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post #78 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post


Grant, no worries - derail any time. I'm interested to see what you end up doing and would love a demo when you get it all figured out, same goes to you when I get my sms-1 back and get everything set here.

I can't give you much advice on DIY, I've never been down that road hopefully Husker or someone else can chime in about that.

Those mfw15 dual opposed sounded pretty damn awesome in my 4000 cubic feet. I can't imagine needing more. I didn't buy them because I wanted a more refined looking cab and I fell into the too much forum reading hole.

And when we had all four cabs going....my projector shifted two inches to the left, my glassware nearly fell off the racks, my walls were flexing so much it cracked the paint, and we were at -5 from reference.

Just stop now. Go dave ramsey and stop wasting money. Get two submersive hp and dont look back....or dual lms diy...you'll be happy.
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post #79 of 89 Old 02-24-2012, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

For comparison here is the 12 seat average of the Submersive HP vs. Captivator Sealed --- carps two favorites! Also very similar.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would only call these curves very similar where they match up. With respect, not sure how you can call a 3/4 octave 5db valley 'very similar'.

Also, as Luke Kamp points out:

Quote:
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It looks like a 4 db difference at 50hz right in the music wheelhouse. This is a noticeable difference.



It is not the 2db differences in the curve that you and others have been referencing, but approximately the 4db difference from 50 and 60hz that would sonically make the biggest difference. The 2db differences in aggregate would also have an impact to the overall sound.

Having said all that, I do believe that high quality (generally more expensive) subs will have a more pleasing sonic signature than lesser quality (cheaper) models, especially as they approach their limits. I believe that's why the JTR and Seaton examples tend to shine in these GTGs. I can't begin to tell you why they sound better with much certainty, but I would guess its because they have less distortion, better transient response, and consistent power compression compared to the other subs. These become more apparent at very high levels.

However, once you start to compare similar high quality subs, IMO the FR dominates the sound signature, and preference is highly weighted towards the preference of the listeners desired FR for the type of content playing. As the curves become more and more alike, that is when I believe the sonic signature of the subs could really be compared.

Again, IMO, FWIW, YMMV...

Carp,

From what I've read so far...it sounds like you're looking for excuses to get 2 more subs! Am I right?

With ominimic or REW, you should be able to dial in your caps nearfield so that they sound the best with movies and music. IOW, with exception to the OM, you may not have to spend 1 more penny into new subs. Just need some time to dial. Is this something that you'd think you'd want to try before you get 2 new subs?

Now...if you really want 2 additional subs then by all means get them!
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post #80 of 89 Old 02-25-2012, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Carp,

From what I've read so far...it sounds like you're looking for excuses to get 2 more subs! Am I right?

With ominimic or REW, you should be able to dial in your caps nearfield so that they sound the best with movies and music. IOW, with exception to the OM, you may not have to spend 1 more penny into new subs. Just need some time to dial. Is this something that you'd think you'd want to try before you get 2 new subs?

Now...if you really want 2 additional subs then by all means get them!

I do love buying new toys that's for sure. However I'm not at MK Theater's level so I'm going to wait until I get my sms-1 fixed and see if I can indeed set up the Caps nearfield and get them sounding good for movies too. Waiting makes a lot more sense, especially after cranking up some music the last couple of nights. The Caps sound so good even in their "bad for music" placement.

I'm getting my new eD cinema 6" bookshelf speakers to use as rears shipped today so that should keep me happy for a bit as far as loving new toys.

I'm also going to ship my sms-1 to velodyne today.
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post #81 of 89 Old 02-25-2012, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post


I do love buying new toys that's for sure. However I'm not at MK Theater's level so I'm going to wait until I get my sms-1 fixed and see if I can indeed set up the Caps nearfield and get them sounding good for movies too. Waiting makes a lot more sense, especially after cranking up some music the last couple of nights. The Caps sound so good even in their "bad for music" placement.

I'm getting my new eD cinema 6" bookshelf speakers to use as rears shipped today so that should keep me happy for a bit as far as loving new toys.

I'm also going to ship my sms-1 to velodyne today.

Before you ship it out, why don't you hook it up and take some measurements nearfield. You can then try rotating the subs 90 degrees and see if that helps your FR. Alternatively, you can also play with phase on both subs to see if that changes anything.

Find the optimal setting (without adjusting the levels in the sms-1) before you ship it out. That way at least you've improved your response naturally (without eq) while you wait for it to be repaired.
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post #82 of 89 Old 03-13-2012, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I did at the blind GTG yes. However I think it was a frequency response thing instead of a sealed vs. ported thing. The graph shows that the ported Cap was well below the Submersive in the 40-60 range (assuming that was true at my seat). In my room the Caps sound a lot different (better) to me than at the GTG.

I've heard the VTF-15 in my room and preferred it's ported to sealed configuration... at least I thought I did, who knows when it's not blind!

That said I've heard the Submersive twice and picked it 1st place for music both times and for movies once so maybe I really am a sealed guy or more likely a Submersive guy... even if that's true I can't justify 2400 per sub compared to 1199 per Cap + 300 for the Behringer amp.

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sell em man...
let them go and buy the sealed subs...
That's my recommendation. You are primary music and you picked them first for music after two top shelf subwoofer meets. I love my cap pros, but if I heard something I liked better twice, and once in blind testing - I would definitely be on that warpath.

That's my opinion. You got to have fun with a terrific subwoofer and wouldn't lose much in the wash and would still have a chance to start fresh with sealed which does seem to be your clear preference. I updated the first few posts in the 2012 meet thread and I don't see where the Cap Pro's really did you wrong as far as frequency response in your seat. Show me why you think it was just the EQ vs. your actual preference? Look at the Jan 22nd restest data also linked in the first few posts to compare what your seat did with frequency response and tell me why the cap pros were somehow neutered when compared to the submersive HP? I can't see how they were. I think you are denying your preference. Nothing wrong with a subjective preference -- even if it doesn't agree with mine. :P

Maybe you could convince doug to let you borrow a couple submersives for comparison?

Just wanted to give closure to the discussion about subwoofer preferences at the GTG being due to freq response differences vs the differences in subs themselves.

Archaea was right. I could immediately tell in my room that I preferred the Submersive. This was in multiple placements, and it didn't matter where I was in the room. It was obvious. This sub just does it for me.

I want to restate though that it all comes down to personal preference, I'm not saying that one sub is "better" than the other.
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post #83 of 89 Old 03-13-2012, 07:20 AM
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So you are saying the submersive is better than the captivator?
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post #84 of 89 Old 03-13-2012, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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So you are saying the submersive is better than the captivator?

No, just that both are better than a LMS5400 DIY sub.
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post #85 of 89 Old 03-13-2012, 08:30 AM
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I have found that duals and quads only add up when co-located, like my main sub system. Moving them to different locations smooth out the response...

WTS, where are you in this venture.....
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post #86 of 89 Old 03-13-2012, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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where are you in this venture.....

This thread led me to borrow a Submersive from Counsil, which lead to this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21730868 (in case you haven't seen it) and currently I am loving the Submersive I bought from Counsil and waiting for a 2nd new Submersive that should be shipped next Monday.
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post #87 of 89 Old 03-13-2012, 11:02 AM
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No, just that both are better than a LMS5400 DIY sub.

It is a good thing that HuskerOmaha is using the Mach V UXL-18.
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post #88 of 89 Old 03-13-2012, 11:06 AM
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It is a good thing that HuskerOmaha is using the Mach V UXL-18.

Someone hasn't read the thread!
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post #89 of 89 Old 03-13-2012, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Someone hasn't read the thread!


Ha, yeah I don't get over to the DIY section often.

That's right, I remember you telling me about the drivers you were going to use at the GTG.
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