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Musical Subs and Complete Bass

14K views 287 replies 52 participants last post by  pokekevin 
#1 ·
I am confused as to what people are experiencing when using a subwoofer for music. First, I think the type of music will effect this experience, so when replying, please define the type of music you listen to. My confusion stems from the terminology manufacturers, consumers and reviewers use to describe the sound of subwoofers and my own experience of the sound I hear from my sub. For now, I don't wish to identify the sub I own...yet, because I am convinced that my experience would be true with any good sub. But suffice it to say it is advertised and widely accepted in the audiophile world as musical, it is sealed and it costs just over U.S. $1,000.00 AVR is *08 series Onkyo.


I listen to mostly Rock, especially Hard Rock...Linkin Park, 10 Years, Sick Puppies, Alter Bridge, Audioslave, Soundgarden, Etc...

Other music with stringed Bass instruments will have a similar quality of bass as the music I listen to, obviously with differences, but in general, similar.

In my experience, electronic music with pure sine wave bass has a different quality of bass than stringed instrument bass.

These two different types of music are effected very differently by the subwoofer in my system.


So, when a manufacturer advertises that his sub's are musical, I find myself questioning the type of music he is referring to.

In short, I expect his statement to be more accurate for current Hip Hop with its synthesized, deep bass lines consisting of pure sine wave bass then for Classical or Rock music with its stringed bass instruments and drums which produce sound waves of a different nature...in short, non-pure sine waves with non-fundamental overtones above the frequency range of the subwoofer. To be clear, when I hear someone talk about Bass, I think of a specific instrument and the full sound it produces, not just the fundamental frequency of each note the instrument produces. Therefore it strikes me as odd that someone can define the bass produced by a subwoofer as though it was whole or complete. Unless one is referring to pure sine wave bass (or the LFE sound track of a movie...but I am trying to stay with music here). When I hear someone exclaim that the bass produced by their subwoofer is fast and undistorted, I am not confused because it makes sense to me that the fundamental frequency reproduced by the sub can be tight, true to pitch or the attack and decay can be faithful to its source. But, I am confused when someone claims the bass is not muddy, or accurately reproduces the original instrument, or is crisp. See, for me for this to be true of a stringed instrument, the entire timbre of the instrument must be reproduced, including the overtones/harmonics above the fundamental frequency, among other sounds. To me, hearing only the fundamental note of a stringed bass instrument sounds muddy without the overtones, which are filtered out by the filters of the sub and/or AVR. Much of the sound is missing and therefore it is incomplete without the striking/picking/bowing/blowing device sounds and the sounds imparted by the body and components of the instrument, etc. Many of which are out of the subwoofer's frequency range.


So, for these subwoofer shootouts (excepting LFE...for music) for example, what are the listeners listening to? Is it pure sine wave frequencies, or the bass line of a rock song or maybe the contrabass of a clasical orchestra score? Is it with or without main/front speakers able to produce and fill in the overtones of the instrument? If they are listening to a solo stringed bass instrument through the subwoofer, how can they even suggest its not muddy? How do you listen to and judge your sub for music?


For me, the sound of an electric bass through my subwoofer for Rock is always a partial sound, as though I were listening through a closed door...its filtered. Its incomplete. No matter what the settings are, no matter what the equalizer/Audyssey/level/crossover configuration is. In order to obtain a clear, concise, full, compete bass sound for Rock, my mains need to work in conjunction with the sub producing the harmonics and other sounds making up the timbre frequencies of the instrument that fall above the range of the subwoofer. Otherwise...Its mud: Fast, articulate, accurate...mud. So for me to talk about the bass in a rock song, I need to be listening to the mains in conjunction with the subwoofer. I would not, in my experience, be able to talk about bass for Rock as though it could be reproduced complete by the sub. Together though, the mains and sub produce complete bass. I am satisfied with it and I think the sub adds dimension to the Bass. But what's coming out of the sub alone is not complete bass.


Like I said, my confusion lies in the difference between the descriptions I read for subs and the sound I personally hear from mine.
 
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#227 ·
^^^


well, we used to use stone tablets and chisels too...



one of these isn't the worst choice in the world...


 
#228 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan /forum/post/21718767


Sorry, there was no disrespect intended. I hoped that it would be obvious that I was being sarcastic. I'm aware that there is some music that hits below 20 Hz.


On a side note I think it's interesting how we used to listen to two channel music with a nice pair of full range speakers and now it seems the trend is to do the same but incorporate a subwoofer the size of a large end table. I'm currently on a search to find my own sweet end table, preferably in black oak or maybe black piano gloss.

No disrespect taken. I must have missed the
smiley.
 
#230 ·
nah... old skool truck liner black still rooolzzz dood....


 
#232 ·
^^^


they are seaton submersives...
 
#233 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 /forum/post/21718603


More on his MO:


1) any sub more expensive than his is excessive or wasteful

2) any sub that stays flat below 30 hz is not musical

3) smaller drivers are better at producing articulate bass than larger ones

4) frequencies below 20hz can't be heard and don't warrant discussion on an AUDIO science forum

5) movies that have 20hz and below bass are stupid and senseless, and aren't worth watching anyway

6) He owns an X-Ref 12


Does that sum it up?

More


X-Ref12 is the only 12" sub that is clean, tight and accurate. All other 12" subs are boom boxes i.e sound boomy. Cant imagine other 12" subs being clean, tight and accurate.


Only the folks at Audioholics know how to review/measure a sub. Any other review is not scientific and should be ignored.


Opinions that are favorable to X-Ref12 are not subjective. Unfavorable opinions of other subs are also not subjective.
 
#237 ·
Yup, better dump 'em, Chris. I'll certainly be sending my pair of Rythmik's back now I know how poorly they fare...



Better yet, send them to me, and I'll suffer with them somehow as you upgrade to new Xref-12's..
 
#238 ·
@miles...


truly one of the greatest movies of all time...
comfortably on my top 10 list...


@capecod... yea, it's amazing how much they suck... i'm sure you think yours sucks too...



@don... good try...
but now that i've got you talked into a 4311.....
 
#239 ·
So, you'll send those bad boys to me as compensation?



I am now thinking it would be interesting to pull my crossover, plug the subs into the normal sub outs, and try the dual sub feature on that 4311... Have to make sure I still have subs on music, though.
 
#240 ·
Why is this guy (Auditor55) still allowed to post on AVS? All he does is lie, incite arguments, and spread misinformation gleaned through exceedingly simple Google searches. He is the absolute definition of a troll, and every single one of his posts corrupts this forum. I suggest reporting him as a troll and ignoring him.
 
#242 ·
Lets take a look at two drivers of similar size but with different design goals. The LAB 12 and Delta Pro 12A from Eminence are built with different purposes in mind. They are both 12" drivers with similar diaphragm area but vastly different moving-mass, low-frequency capability and efficiency.


LAB 12 - vs - Delta Pro 12A

=================

146 vs 48 (mms, grams)

507 vs 532 (Sd, cm2)

22 vs 51 (Fs, Hz)

89 vs 99 (sensitivity, dB)

13 vs 4.6 (xmax, mm)

400 vs 400 (power rating, W)


Both of these drivers are flat to 500Hz and have significant output to 1kHz (and beyond for the Delta Pro). Both of these drivers are fast but one has triple the moving-mass, triple the excursion and substantially lower efficiency (in the pass-band).


The lighter, faster diaphragm gives you efficiency and extended, smoother high-frequency output.
 
#245 ·
So what exactly does "fast" or "slow" mean when referring to a woofer/subwoofer. For example, a 25Hz sound is always going to be 25Hz. I didnt quite get it when people say fast or slow woofer/subwoofer. If the cone vibrates at 25Hz, it is vibrating at 25Hz, neither faster nor slower. So what does fast or slow woofer/subwoofer mean?
 
#246 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi /forum/post/21726194


... So what does fast or slow woofer/subwoofer mean?

It's an incorrect term to describe the sound of the system. It refers to the frequency response and the amount and type of resonance in the system (and the room is part of the system).


So something that is 'fast' or 'tight' or 'dry' (flatter response, non-resonant) is the opposite of something that is 'boomy' or 'loose' or 'slow' (skewed / uneven response, highly-resonant).
 
#247 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinq /forum/post/21726215


It's an incorrect term to describe the sound of the system. It refers to the frequency response and the amount and type of resonance in the system (and the room is part of the system).


So something that is 'fast' or 'tight' or 'dry' (flatter response, non-resonant) is the opposite of something that is 'boomy' or 'loose' or 'slow' (skewed / uneven response, highly-resonant).

So you are saying that a "fast" subwoofer is a "tight" (not boomy) subwoofer?
 
#248 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi /forum/post/21728119


So you are saying that a "fast" subwoofer is a "tight" (not boomy) subwoofer?

Sure, why not.


What's important is does the system sound right and if not, why not. If your bass doesn't sound 'musical' it certainly won't be because of the size of the subwoofer driver. 8" and 18" drivers can both be capable of good sound.
 
#249 ·
No what I meant was, is your definition of fast=tight and slow=boomy?


I am not sure if that has been the argument here.


My tiny 9" Sunfire cube is very tight. It has no problem keeping up with the songs of Sade like "No ordinary Love". I guess tight or boomy sound depends more on the room, assuming that I dont have a cheap low end sub. I was under the impression that "fast" refers to how fast the bass is played in a song like slow beats vs rapid beats as in that Sade song. or like one single explosion vs a series of shots from an automatic machine gun. No?
 
#250 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi /forum/post/0


No what I meant was, is your definition of fast=tight and slow=boomy?


I am not sure if that has been the argument here.


My tiny 9" Sunfire cube is very tight. It has no problem keeping up with the songs of Sade like "No ordinary Love". I guess tight or boomy sound depends more on the room, assuming that I dont have a cheap low end sub. I was under the impression that "fast" refers to how fast the bass is played in a song like slow beats vs rapid beats as in that Sade song. or like one single explosion vs a series of shots from an automatic machine gun. No?

I think the concept of 'group delay' for a subwoofer helps to explain how fast it can stop its motion when an input signal ceases. The longer the group delay the 'boomier' it is likely to be perceived. Also relevant is bass decay (RT60, RT30) within your room which inevitably increases as frequency falls. Without some way of attenuating low bass energy, you will hear more 'boominess.'
 
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