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post #91 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

Complete and utter BS. My ULS-15 would make your X-12 sound like a woofer. And just to let you know I too listen to smooth jazz on Sunday mornings and my music has never sounded better till I bought the ULS-15s.

Now set up a Double Blind Controlled Level matched listening test and prove your challenge, otherwise you're just trash talking.

BTW, you claim to listen to smooth jazz. I have to think over that.
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post #92 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Line up any size guy against any big NFL receiver and see if that theory still sticks?

Who will run faster Wr Desean Jackson (Eagles) or DT Vince Wilfork (Patriots)?

A simple question.
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post #93 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:33 AM
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Here's one problem with the "big speakers are slow argument. The FR of the drivers. Because it's easy, I went to the Eminence site and looked at a couple of pro sub drivers. The KAPPA PRO-15LF-2 has a 20 dB peak at around 1200 Hz. http://www.eminence.com/speakers/spe...ilomax_Pro_15A. IMO, not too slow. If it can play 1200 Hz four times louder than it plays 100 Hz, I'm thinking it's not too slow to handle the sounds in the typical subwoofer range.

I'm less familiar with home audio type speakers, but pulled up as an example the dayton RSS390HO-4 15" sub. It's got a smoother and more extended (at the bottom) frequency response, and relatively flat response out to 1000 Hz, with a 10 dB peak at 2000 Hz. http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php...fer-4-ohm.html.

Again, if the driver were too slow to respond at subwoofer frequencies, it should be too slow to respond at frequencies that are more than 2 octaves higher (assuming 200 Hz as the top of sub extension). But they are not. They clearly reproduce frequencies out to and above a kilohertz.
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post #94 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

If you look at his post history things will become clearer....

I have close to 8,000 post, what about my post history.
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post #95 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Was the SC2 the "best" sub you've ever owned?

Obviously not.
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post #96 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:41 AM
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Note that when a person runs, he or she is generating the force. We are taking about external force i.e power driving a woofer. A heavier person could run faster if he has some help like some one pushing him or her :-)

Another example is that a taller person has to make fewer strides to complete the run like a larger woofer has to make smaller excursion compared to a shorter woofer. Usain Bolt takes fewer steps than the rest and he can also shut down faster as he takes fewer steps.
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post #97 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I have close to 8,000 post, what about my post history.

It seems to me pretty easy to accumulate 8,000 posts if one regularly picks a thread and runs it into the ground with wrong assumptions and poor logic, all while repeating the same arugments.

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post #98 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Note that when a person runs, he or she is generating the force. We are taking about external force i.e power driving a woofer. A heavier person could run faster if he has some help like some one pushing him or her :-)

Another example is that a taller person has to make fewer strides to complete the run like a larger woofer has to make smaller excursion compared to a shorter woofer. Usain Bolt takes fewer steps than the rest and he can also shut down faster as he takes fewer steps.

How many 300Lbs guys you know can run a 4.2 40?
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post #99 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

It seems to me pretty easy to accumulate 8,000 posts if one regularly picks a thread and runs it into the ground with wrong assumptions and poor logic, all while repeating the same arugments.

How can a thread be run in the ground by me? No one has to even read or respond to my post. I ignore and don't offer replies to a lot of post.

It just seems that when a person isn't afraid to present facts, even though some may not like it, some people are miffed by that.
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post #100 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

It seems to me pretty easy to accumulate 8,000 posts if one regularly picks a thread and runs it into the ground with wrong assumptions and poor logic, all while repeating the same arugments.

+1 Click on name, find more posts by, read a handful of posts, obvious lack of physics or science background. In fact I don't think he has ever even stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.
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post #101 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

How many 300Lbs guys you know can run a 4.2 40?

Find me a 175lb guy that can outrun a horse. Really running and subwoofers.
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post #102 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

How can a thread be run in the ground by me?

You like data. Post a poll that ask people if you run threads into the ground. I betcha that the only person that would vote "no" would be you

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post #103 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Another car analogy I love is there is no substitute for cubic inches .

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

No replacement for displacement....

There is wieght reduction. My Porsche's flat 6 3.2L generates 250hp but it only wieghs 3000 lbs but I digress.
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post #104 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Why should I assume that the person you quoted knows any better about the subject than you do?
Tell me about the critical listening you have done. What subs did you evaluate? What experience in bass reproduction do you have beyond your little Emotiva?

Edit: ...and your little supercube?

Aparently that's a)classified b) secret or c) HTIB
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post #105 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

It seems to me pretty easy to accumulate 8,000 posts if one regularly picks a thread and runs it into the ground with wrong assumptions and poor logic, all while repeating the same arugments.

well, to be fair, this is a relatively new topic for him... most of his posts were accumulated attempting to run plasma threads into the ground...

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post #106 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

How can a thread be run in the ground by me? No one has to even read or respond to my post. I ignore and don't offer replies to a lot of post.

It just seems that when a person isn't afraid to present facts, even though some may not like it, some people are miffed by that.

The problem here, is that you have not stated any facts to back up your claim.

There is an abundance of factual data that proves you are wrong. Do you understand how to read measured data? Do you know what measured data to present to prove or dis-prove your statements?

Have a look at this site, and show us the data that proves you right. If it is not there, tell us what measurements you need.

http://www.data-bass.com

I am guessing this will be a post you will not respond to with any kind of an answer because you do not know.

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post #107 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The problem here, is that you have not stated any facts to back up your claim.

There is an abundance of factual data that proves you are wrong. Do you understand how to read measured data? Do you know what measured data to present to prove or dis-prove your statements?

Have a look at this site, and show us the data that proves you right. If it is not there, tell us what measurements you need.

http://www.data-bass.com

I am guessing this will be a post you will not respond to with any kind of an answer because you do not know.

I don't think he likes to mix his fiction with facts.
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post #108 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

I don't think he likes to mix his fiction with facts.

Well let's point him to a particular page to help him out....

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=knowhow&type=1

Specifically items #3 and #6.

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post #109 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

How many 300Lbs guys you know can run a 4.2 40?

You missed my point. A heavier guy could run faster if he gets some help like someone pushing him i.e external force like a big woofer driven by a more powerful amp.
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post #110 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I read the article linked in that thread. While the issue has more to do with the performance of sealed vs vented, we can extrapolate from some of the points he made therein to advance the argument of smaller vs larger subs. For example, the author made the following statement in a the Q&A:
Quote:


"Vented enclosures are always larger than their sealed counterparts:

While to obtain maximum low-end extension, this statement is certainly true. However, all of the vented examples shown above were modeled in the same volume enclosure as the sealed example: 36 liters, and tuned to 20 Hz."

The highlighted clearly support my position for the most part of this thread. I have made the argument that most folks are after the maximum low extension, which logic tells us, equates to a larger size subs, which in general, doesn't equate to the most musical sub (i.e better transient response). If you, according to the author, reduce the size of the vented, it performs better in comparison with the sealed. By doing so, logic again tells us, you get an increase in musical performance and a decrease in low end extension.

Did you read the thread that I posted and not just the article? A couple very smart people explained that some of the conclusions in the article were wrong. Specifically about the causes of the "slow" ramp up of the drivers.

Here are some quotes from the thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark seaton View Post

Quite to the contrary of what is asserted, you could add some mass to the RS225 woofer, use a larger sealed box resulting in the same Qb, and you would BETTER follow the input signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The ramping up of the signal and tailing down happen with different shapes due to the bandwidth of the playback device and the relative phase shift through the spectrum. Any driver with the exact same frequency response and phase response will have the same behavior, even if it's 10x heavier or 10x lighter.

And this post has a lot of quotes about transient response and time domain behavior.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post21486794

I do not follow your logic how this supports your argument that large drivers are "slow". You make a lot of assumptions with nothing to back them up. Are you now also saying a larger enclosure is inherently less "musical"? Does this include sealed and IB subs? For vented subs, some people would argue the exact opposite. A smaller vented enclosure is limited to how low it can be tuned because the lower the tune the larger the port. If the tune isn't low enough, of course its bandwidth is limited and the phase change will happen in frequencies that regularly occur in music. Some would say that will cause problems. Just because a sub is in a large enclosure, does not mean it will be less musical or have worse transient response. Some drivers need larger boxes to perform their best.

Let's get back to your assertion that large drivers are "slow." Do you have any evidence that this is true? Please, no analogies or quotes that have no references.

In the end I would say all the individual pieces (driver, enclosure, amp, etc.) of a sub system need to work together to reach the design goals and a sub system should be chosen that works best with the room or venue to achieve the desired bandwidth and SPL in an acceptable package.

-Mike
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post #111 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Well let's point him to a particular page to help him out....

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=knowhow&type=1

Specifically items #3 and #6.

Pay attention Auditor55, this is quoted directly from data-bass.com from Ricci who does the reviews for Audioholics

Quote:
Originally Posted by data-bass View Post


Bass Myths.
.

3. Subwoofers are fast / slow

Often times people make the mistake that sound quality is in fact related to the woofers quickness, but in fact the woofer’s quickness is exactly related to SPL. The faster the driver, the higher the SPL. There are two ways to change a woofer’s speed. 1. Lower the frequency of the input its reproducing or 2. increase the volume. Sounds silly, but its true. There are many other factors that go into making a subwoofer sound fast or slow (boomy or tight) but that divulges into system design. What’s important about this myth is that speed is an inappropriate concept of sound quality.

6. Smaller woofers sound better than bigger woofers

One of the biggest myths about woofers is that 8’s and 10’s are “tighter” and “cleaner” than 15’s or 18’s. Nothing is really further from the truth. What tends to happen is that the smaller drivers have lower Q’s because manufactures tend to put large cones on smaller motors to increase SPL and sensitivity. Well unless the motor can compensate for the extra mass it has to push, then the Qts will not be the same as the smaller drivers the and ultimately the driver may not be suited for the same kinds of alignments and could ring too much and compromise the perceived sound quality. Having said that, high Qts drivers are not any less “tight” or “musical” than well damping drivers, it’s just they require larger boxes and less internal pressure to prevent ringing. All things equal, a well designed 18” woofer will sound louder with lower distortion than a well designed 12” or 10” woofer. Bigger is better, but its almost more expensive


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post #112 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 12:02 PM
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One of the things I love about AVS is that there is enough of a presence of knowledgable people to help refute claims made within posts.

It's one thing to have a grasp on basic physics. It's another thing to assume that if one understands basic physics, they know everything about the complex design and performance of subwoofers.
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post #113 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Obviously not.

Please don't tell me it's the Emotiva. That barely qualifies as a subwoofer.
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post #114 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 01:06 PM
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My subjective point of view true 'musical' subs are not common - design considerations incorporating equipment used such as preamps/amps/xovers/speakers to unify the system as one are imperative to a 'musical' sub.

Most subs are conceived mainly to reproduce artificial sounds at high SPL levels to impress the child in most men - Manufacturers know this and comply - how many here would buy one if this criteria wasn't met? - they also know that the majority of end users when playing music it most likely be bass heavy material where refinement isn't the objective - as long as the sub plays loud with heavy bass overtones most end users are happy - generally this is good enough.

For the 'true' audiophile playing all genres of music longing to fill the bottom octaves as an extension of the main speakers with finesse in the blending while enhancing the speakers overall performance with extended clarity is a challenge and a curse

Similar to most it's a real treat for me when watching a movie in the HT with the 2 Hsu's reproducing all the grunts and special sound effects to be transported into the fantasy world of action and adventure with such reality - in this scenario - how deep the subs play along with the high SPL levels are mandatory for the experience

Again a reminder for the quick triggered - SUBJECTIVE - some of the above is from my involvements with videophiles friends and their equipment - my experiences with music only subs are based on my two channel audio environment as below.


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post #115 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 01:59 PM
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"Bass Myths.
...
3. Subwoofers are fast / slow.
Often times people make the mistake that sound quality is in fact related to the woofers quickness, but in fact the woofer’s quickness is exactly related to SPL. The faster the driver, the higher the SPL ...

6. Smaller woofers sound better than bigger woofers.
One of the biggest myths about woofers is that 8’s and 10’s are “tighter” and “cleaner” than 15’s or 18’s. Nothing is really further from the truth ...
"


Thanks for posting that, it was tough going through the first two pages of bad info in this thread. Glad someone posted some useful info.
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post #116 of 295 Old 02-26-2012, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Vinyl,
Thanks for the thoughtful, positive contribution...you are truly cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinyl View Post

...equipment used such as preamps/amps/xovers/speakers to unify the system as one are imperative to a 'musical' sub.

I think this brings up the source of my confusion, that I find it impossible to talk about the sound generated by a sub as Bass without talking about the rest of the
system with regards to music, excepting music with pure LF bass (as in current Hip Hop or Techno Dance with its Low Frequency fundamental sine wave bass lines). I find that the sound exiting my sub is better defined as Low Frequency, as Auditor55 pointed out,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Dr. Earl Geddes said it should be called low frequencies instead of bass..

and that its the combination of mains, crossover, sub and room which create the overall sound we know as Bass in most music.
Turn off the mains (leaving only the sub on) for most music, and you are not hearing bass. So much is missing from the sub...notably that which we know as timbre which makes an instrument's sound unique. The fundamental frequency alone does not a note make, in most cases. After reading many reviews and discussions about subwoofers, it was not apparent to me that the actual sound produced by a sub did not include enough information to create complete bass until I actually listened to one.

I think todays subs by design do not produce bass, but a portion of bass known as sub-bass (hence the word subwoofer). Do some do it better than others? Certainly. But that was NOT supposed to be the point of this thread. Its was supposed to be a discussion on how to talk about subs with regards to music and the sound they produce. At least that was my intention. So, why call the sound most modern subs produce (Musical) Bass? Its not. Period.
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post #117 of 295 Old 02-27-2012, 04:07 PM
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The term "musical" started being used to differentiate subs into "home theater (HT)" vs "music"....for which the sub was better suited for.

In the past...and maybe still, the folks looking for a home theater sub were looking for output, while the music folks were looking for accuracy.

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post #118 of 295 Old 02-27-2012, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The term "musical" started being used to differentiate subs into "home theater (HT)" vs "music"....for which the sub was better suited for.

In the past...and maybe still, the folks looking for a home theater sub were looking for output, while the music folks were looking for accuracy.

Fortunately, there are choices that can do both at the same time. Folks should keep in mind that movie soundtracks typically have an ever-present musical score going on throughout the movie. Much of the sense of action is imparted by the music. That needs to be well reproduced right along with the special effects.
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post #119 of 295 Old 02-27-2012, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Fortunately, there are choices that can do both at the same time. Folks should keep in mind that movie soundtracks typically have an ever-present musical score going on throughout the movie. Much of the sense of action is imparted by the music. That needs to be well reproduced right along with the special effects.

Agreed!


BTW...where did Auditor55 go?

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post #120 of 295 Old 02-27-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

well, to be fair, this is a relatively new topic for him... most of his posts were accumulated attempting to run plasma threads into the ground...

So are you saying . . .

It took tons of threads like this about plasma tv before he finally understood what everyone was telling him?

OR

It took tons of threads like this about plasma tv before everyone finally gave up replying to him?

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