Musical Subs and Complete Bass - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I am confused as to what people are experiencing when using a subwoofer for music. First, I think the type of music will effect this experience, so when replying, please define the type of music you listen to. My confusion stems from the terminology manufacturers, consumers and reviewers use to describe the sound of subwoofers and my own experience of the sound I hear from my sub. For now, I don't wish to identify the sub I own...yet, because I am convinced that my experience would be true with any good sub. But suffice it to say it is advertised and widely accepted in the audiophile world as musical, it is sealed and it costs just over U.S. $1,000.00 AVR is *08 series Onkyo.

I listen to mostly Rock, especially Hard Rock...Linkin Park, 10 Years, Sick Puppies, Alter Bridge, Audioslave, Soundgarden, Etc...
Other music with stringed Bass instruments will have a similar quality of bass as the music I listen to, obviously with differences, but in general, similar.
In my experience, electronic music with pure sine wave bass has a different quality of bass than stringed instrument bass.
These two different types of music are effected very differently by the subwoofer in my system.

So, when a manufacturer advertises that his sub's are musical, I find myself questioning the type of music he is referring to.
In short, I expect his statement to be more accurate for current Hip Hop with its synthesized, deep bass lines consisting of pure sine wave bass then for Classical or Rock music with its stringed bass instruments and drums which produce sound waves of a different nature...in short, non-pure sine waves with non-fundamental overtones above the frequency range of the subwoofer. To be clear, when I hear someone talk about Bass, I think of a specific instrument and the full sound it produces, not just the fundamental frequency of each note the instrument produces. Therefore it strikes me as odd that someone can define the bass produced by a subwoofer as though it was whole or complete. Unless one is referring to pure sine wave bass (or the LFE sound track of a movie...but I am trying to stay with music here). When I hear someone exclaim that the bass produced by their subwoofer is fast and undistorted, I am not confused because it makes sense to me that the fundamental frequency reproduced by the sub can be tight, true to pitch or the attack and decay can be faithful to its source. But, I am confused when someone claims the bass is not muddy, or accurately reproduces the original instrument, or is crisp. See, for me for this to be true of a stringed instrument, the entire timbre of the instrument must be reproduced, including the overtones/harmonics above the fundamental frequency, among other sounds. To me, hearing only the fundamental note of a stringed bass instrument sounds muddy without the overtones, which are filtered out by the filters of the sub and/or AVR. Much of the sound is missing and therefore it is incomplete without the striking/picking/bowing/blowing device sounds and the sounds imparted by the body and components of the instrument, etc. Many of which are out of the subwoofer's frequency range.

So, for these subwoofer shootouts (excepting LFE...for music) for example, what are the listeners listening to? Is it pure sine wave frequencies, or the bass line of a rock song or maybe the contrabass of a clasical orchestra score? Is it with or without main/front speakers able to produce and fill in the overtones of the instrument? If they are listening to a solo stringed bass instrument through the subwoofer, how can they even suggest its not muddy? How do you listen to and judge your sub for music?

For me, the sound of an electric bass through my subwoofer for Rock is always a partial sound, as though I were listening through a closed door...its filtered. Its incomplete. No matter what the settings are, no matter what the equalizer/Audyssey/level/crossover configuration is. In order to obtain a clear, concise, full, compete bass sound for Rock, my mains need to work in conjunction with the sub producing the harmonics and other sounds making up the timbre frequencies of the instrument that fall above the range of the subwoofer. Otherwise...Its mud: Fast, articulate, accurate...mud. So for me to talk about the bass in a rock song, I need to be listening to the mains in conjunction with the subwoofer. I would not, in my experience, be able to talk about bass for Rock as though it could be reproduced complete by the sub. Together though, the mains and sub produce complete bass. I am satisfied with it and I think the sub adds dimension to the Bass. But what's coming out of the sub alone is not complete bass.

Like I said, my confusion lies in the difference between the descriptions I read for subs and the sound I personally hear from mine.
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post #2 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunbear View Post

So, for these subwoofer shootouts (excepting LFE...for music) for example, what are the listeners listening to?

Many of the subwoofer shootout threads in the sticky post in this forum DO list the type of music they use. Perhaps you might try reading some of them.

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post #3 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 09:11 AM
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To me a musical sub and I can't really use that term with a straight face is one with the lower distortion in the band that is used and in the lower than threshold of hearing how would you know so in a nutshell a clean or as clean as you can from 80Hz down to 25 or 30Hz would be musical. Unless you listen to electronic or classical with organs doubt you will find a lot below 30Hz.
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post #4 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 09:58 AM
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IMO, any good sub system for any purpose, whether it's for music of any kind or movies, should be accurate (meaning a reasonably flat in-room frequency response), should have no audible distortion, and should have enough output to have some headroom remaining at all desired listening levels. A sub like that would excel at reproducing anything. It won't matter if it's playing stringed bass, synthetric bass, or movie sound effects. It will put out whatever goes in, plain and simple.
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post #5 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 10:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunbear View Post

I am confused as to what people are experiencing when using a subwoofer for music. First, I think the type of music will effect this experience, so when replying, please define the type of music you listen to. My confusion stems from the terminology manufacturers, consumers and reviewers use to describe the sound of subwoofers and my own experience of the sound I hear from my sub. For now, I don't wish to identify the sub I own...yet, because I am convinced that my experience would be true with any good sub. But suffice it to say it is advertised and widely accepted in the audiophile world as musical, it is sealed and it costs just over U.S. $1,000.00 AVR is *08 series Onkyo.

I listen to mostly Rock, especially Hard Rock...Linkin Park, 10 Years, Sick Puppies, Alter Bridge, Audioslave, Soundgarden, Etc...
Other music with stringed Bass instruments will have a similar quality of bass as the music I listen to, obviously with differences, but in general, similar.
In my experience, electronic music with pure sine wave bass has a different quality of bass than stringed instrument bass.
These two different types of music are effected very differently by the subwoofer in my system.

So, when a manufacturer advertises that his sub's are musical, I find myself questioning the type of music he is referring to.
In short, I expect his statement to be more accurate for current Hip Hop with its synthesized, deep bass lines consisting of pure sine wave bass then for Classical or Rock music with its stringed bass instruments and drums which produce sound waves of a different nature...in short, non-pure sine waves with non-fundamental overtones above the frequency range of the subwoofer. To be clear, when I hear someone talk about Bass, I think of a specific instrument and the full sound it produces, not just the fundamental frequency of each note the instrument produces. Therefore it strikes me as odd that someone can define the bass produced by a subwoofer as though it was whole or complete. Unless one is referring to pure sine wave bass (or the LFE sound track of a movie...but I am trying to stay with music here). When I hear someone exclaim that the bass produced by their subwoofer is fast and undistorted, I am not confused because it makes sense to me that the fundamental frequency reproduced by the sub can be tight, true to pitch or the attack and decay can be faithful to its source. But, I am confused when someone claims the bass is not muddy, or accurately reproduces the original instrument, or is crisp. See, for me for this to be true of a stringed instrument, the entire timbre of the instrument must be reproduced, including the overtones/harmonics above the fundamental frequency, among other sounds. To me, hearing only the fundamental note of a stringed bass instrument sounds muddy without the overtones, which are filtered out by the filters of the sub and/or AVR. Much of the sound is missing and therefore it is incomplete without the striking/picking/bowing/blowing device sounds and the sounds imparted by the body and components of the instrument, etc. Many of which are out of the subwoofer's frequency range.

So, for these subwoofer shootouts (excepting LFE...for music) for example, what are the listeners listening to? Is it pure sine wave frequencies, or the bass line of a rock song or maybe the contrabass of a clasical orchestra score? Is it with or without main/front speakers able to produce and fill in the overtones of the instrument? If they are listening to a solo stringed bass instrument through the subwoofer, how can they even suggest its not muddy? How do you listen to and judge your sub for music?

For me, the sound of an electric bass through my subwoofer for Rock is always a partial sound, as though I were listening through a closed door...its filtered. Its incomplete. No matter what the settings are, no matter what the equalizer/Audyssey/level/crossover configuration is. In order to obtain a clear, concise, full, compete bass sound for Rock, my mains need to work in conjunction with the sub producing the harmonics and other sounds making up the timbre frequencies of the instrument that fall above the range of the subwoofer. Otherwise...Its mud: Fast, articulate, accurate...mud. So for me to talk about the bass in a rock song, I need to be listening to the mains in conjunction with the subwoofer. I would not, in my experience, be able to talk about bass for Rock as though it could be reproduced complete by the sub. Together though, the mains and sub produce complete bass. I am satisfied with it and I think the sub adds dimension to the Bass. But what's coming out of the sub alone is not complete bass.

Like I said, my confusion lies in the difference between the descriptions I read for subs and the sound I personally hear from mine.

In my opinion, those shootouts are mostly useless and I don't see what is to be accomplished by conducting them, they are not double blind level matched listening test, I don't even know if you can conduct a DBT with subs.

I think music listening is about critical listening, you want to hear different LF notes in the music and not just a big boom (LFE) like we do for movies. Depending on the type of music, you want hear Piano keys, the bass guitar notes and drums with clarity, tightness and punch, well blended in with the other speakers, you don't want deep bass dominating the other frequencies, you sound to be as if you were at a concert.
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post #6 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 10:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

IMO, any good sub system for any purpose, whether it's for music of any kind or movies, should be accurate (meaning a reasonably flat in-room frequency response), should have no audible distortion, and should have enough output to have some headroom remaining at all desired listening levels. A sub like that would excel at reproducing anything. It won't matter if it's playing stringed bass, synthetric bass, or movie sound effects. It will put out whatever goes in, plain and simple.

Music bass isn't the same as movie, the big huge subs we buy for movies, I don't believe can't cut for fast, transients sounds in some music (Jazz) do to the there sheer size and inertia of being big and heavy.
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post #7 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

the big huge subs we buy for movies, I don't believe can't cut for fast, transients sounds in some music (Jazz) do to the there sheer size and inertia of being big and heavy.

Depends on the motor strength of the big heavy sub. Some do rather well with transients.
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post #8 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Music bass isn't the same as movie, the big huge subs we buy for movies, I don't believe can't cut for fast, transients sounds in some music (Jazz) do to the there sheer size and inertia of being big and heavy.

You would be wrong.
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post #9 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 10:31 AM
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There is always going to be trade offs with each design its basically what appeals to you that matters and some the spec sheet rules while others look for the deepest note
or loudest sub whether it be sealed,ported, infinite baffle or horn so pick your poison.
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post #10 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 10:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

There is always going to be trade offs with each design its basically what appeals to you that matters and some the spec sheet rules while others look for the deepest note
or loudest sub whether it be sealed,ported, infinite baffle or horn so pick your poison.

True.
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post #11 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanx guys for taking the time to read and answer my post with respect.

I guess my question is getting somewhat lost as no one has really addressed the issue I am trying to stress: in a word, Timbre.

First, let me say, I get the part about a good sub should produce sound of good quality, whether it be for music or movies, however its done or measured is irrelevant to my question. What I am getting at is 'what exactly IS that sound'?. How can a person claim , for instance, that a sub is reproducing a base note from say, a 4 string electric base, when the subs FR includes only the fundamental frequency but does not include the timbre of the note (all other sounds not including the fundamental). This is science. This information is missing from the subwoofer and therefore is reproduced by the mains which is why I hear good base on my system AS A COMBINATION OF THE SUBWOOFER AND MAINS and the room acoustics. I don't doubt that something is reproduced by the sub, and it can have good or bad qualities, but I am at a loss to simply call it bass (maybe i could call it partial bass?) because of the missing information. UNLESS the base is truly a sine wave or LFE information within the FR of the sub. For example; when I place my ear close to the sub, I hear the bass notes as though I were listening through a closed door. Back at the listening position, I hear the full, complete bass note...its a combination of sounds from the sub and mains. To me, the sound directly from the sub could be described as muddy, thick. This is because it is filtered...incomplete, missing overtones/harmonics. So, when I hear people describe bass from their sub as though it were complete and full, I get confused. And especially when I hear people claim that a bass note does not sound muddy (excepting pure sine wave...again). Maybe I just define muddy differently?
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post #12 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunbear View Post

Thanx guys for taking the time to read and answer my post with respect.

I guess my question is getting somewhat lost as no one has really addressed the issue I am trying to stress: in a word, Timbre.

First, let me say, I get the part about a good sub should produce sound of good quality, whether it be for music or movies, however its done or measured is irrelevant to my question. What I am getting at is 'what exactly IS that sound'?. How can a person claim , for instance, that a sub is reproducing a base note from say, a 4 string electric base, when the subs FR includes only the fundamental frequency but does not include the timbre of the note (all other sounds not including the fundamental). This is science. This information is missing from the subwoofer and therefore is reproduced by the mains which is why I hear good base on my system AS A COMBINATION OF THE SUBWOOFER AND MAINS and the room acoustics. I don't doubt that something is reproduced by the sub, and it can have good or bad qualities, but I am at a loss to simply call it bass (maybe i could call it partial bass?) because of the missing information. UNLESS the base is truly a sine wave or LFE information within the FR of the sub. For example; when I place my ear close to the sub, I hear the bass notes as though I were listening through a closed door. Back at the listening position, I hear the full, complete bass note...its a combination of sounds from the sub and mains. To me, the sound directly from the sub could be described as muddy, thick. This is because it is filtered...incomplete, missing overtones/harmonics. So, when I hear people describe bass from their sub as though it were complete and full, I get confused. And especially when I hear people claim that a bass note does not sound muddy (excepting pure sine wave...again). Maybe I just define muddy differently?

You are entirely correct. The "whole" sound being produced is a product of it's fundamental tone plus it's unique series of overtones, much of which is reproduced by the main speakers. This is one of the reasons that besides the importance of the sub playing the fundamentals correctly, the crossover to mains and the mains themselves are all important in reproducing "bass" sounds properly.

Since this forum is about subwoofers, that is the range inwhich we usually focus on here, but there is no getting away from the importance of the mains to pick up where the sub leaves off.
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post #13 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 02:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunbear View Post

Thanx guys for taking the time to read and answer my post with respect.

I guess my question is getting somewhat lost as no one has really addressed the issue I am trying to stress: in a word, Timbre.

First, let me say, I get the part about a good sub should produce sound of good quality, whether it be for music or movies, however its done or measured is irrelevant to my question. What I am getting at is 'what exactly IS that sound'?. How can a person claim , for instance, that a sub is reproducing a base note from say, a 4 string electric base, when the subs FR includes only the fundamental frequency but does not include the timbre of the note (all other sounds not including the fundamental). This is science. This information is missing from the subwoofer and therefore is reproduced by the mains which is why I hear good base on my system AS A COMBINATION OF THE SUBWOOFER AND MAINS and the room acoustics. I don't doubt that something is reproduced by the sub, and it can have good or bad qualities, but I am at a loss to simply call it bass (maybe i could call it partial bass?) because of the missing information. UNLESS the base is truly a sine wave or LFE information within the FR of the sub. For example; when I place my ear close to the sub, I hear the bass notes as though I were listening through a closed door. Back at the listening position, I hear the full, complete bass note...its a combination of sounds from the sub and mains. To me, the sound directly from the sub could be described as muddy, thick. This is because it is filtered...incomplete, missing overtones/harmonics. So, when I hear people describe bass from their sub as though it were complete and full, I get confused. And especially when I hear people claim that a bass note does not sound muddy (excepting pure sine wave...again). Maybe I just define muddy differently?

Dr. Earl Geddes said it should be called low frequencies instead of bass. If you have the mains cutoff at 100 or 80hz the subs has to do produce those low frequencies below those points.

The muddy bass thing is more of set up issue.
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post #14 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Music bass isn't the same as movie, the big huge subs we buy for movies, I don't believe can't cut for fast, transients sounds in some music (Jazz) do to the there sheer size and inertia of being big and heavy.

That is completely false.
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post #15 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 02:32 PM
 
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That is completely false.

I stick by my statement.
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Music or movies content does not really matter, what is good for movies is good for music and vise versa, if its accurate on movies, it would be accurate on music.. again its vise versa...

but..of course there is a but An acceptable HT sub to some people (like me) will not be acceptable for music reproduction. its all about being able to compare the sound with the real thing, we can do this for music, we know how a real guitar sounds like, we know how the human voice sounds like, but how many of you knows how the Sonic Canon on the incredible hulk sounds like ?..or how does an Andromeda Class Battleship actually sounds when doing mach 10 in space ? Does it even make a sound in space? How about a nuclear explosion ? For movies, it would be acceptable for a sub to produce those frequencies as long as it goes low and loud and then were happy.. for music its all about accuracy



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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

That is completely false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Music bass isn't the same as movie, the big huge subs we buy for movies, I don't believe can't cut for fast, transients sounds in some music (Jazz) do to the there sheer size and inertia of being big and heavy.

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I used to think smaller subs were faster and tighter also. After all it made logical sense that smaller subs could move faster. Now that I have owned 10", 12" 15" and 18" subs my belief has changed. A woofer reproducing 30 hz has to move in and out 30 times a second whether it is an 10 inch or 18 in driver. The 10 in would just have to move back and forth a lot further to move the same amount of air as the 18".
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post #18 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I stick by my statement.

Well here is the answer from one of the experts in the industry:

Quote:


I just can't let go of the "18-inch subs can't play fast" comment. I hear that one, too. Look, as long as the cone is very stiff and the motor-to-mass ratio is good (big magnet and voice coil in relation to the mass of the cone and suspension), an 18" sub will move as fast as an 8" sub. And because an 18" sub will move as much air as a 12" sub with less than half the excursion, it may be cleaner with less distortion. When most people interpret a sub as being "slow," it's because the sub either has high 2nd harmonic distortion or it's not rolled off steep enough at 80 Hz.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2859

And like the above poster stated, my ears would completely agree with Mr. Sacarpeilli You can have your cake and eat it too.
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post #19 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 02:56 PM
 
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science tells us, generally speaking, the bigger and heavy an objective is going to be more affected by inertia, inertia means the same as slower, that is why bigger people typically aren't faster smaller people, they are more affected by the physical laws of inertia or gravity than smaller people.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

science tells us, generally speaking, the bigger and heavy an objective is going to be more affected by inertia, inertia means the same as slower, that is why bigger people typically aren't faster smaller people, they are move affected by the physical laws of inertia or gravity than smaller people.

Wow.
LOL, you want to bury your head in the sand go ahead.

Face it, you are missing out.
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post #21 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 03:02 PM
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1000 hp limo can be as fast as 200hp sports car.. much more comfortable tooo.... its typically a power to weight ratio, same thing with subwoofers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

science tells us, generally speaking, the bigger and heavy an objective is going to be more affected by inertia, inertia means the same as slower, that is why bigger people typically aren't faster smaller people, they are more affected by the physical laws of inertia or gravity than smaller people.

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post #22 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

science tells us, generally speaking, the bigger and heavy an objective is going to be more affected by inertia, inertia means the same as slower, that is why bigger people typically aren't faster smaller people, they are move affected by the physical laws of inertia or gravity than smaller people.

Once again stating science followed by mumbo jumbo. Its getting really old. This has been covered over and over, as is most of your dead end arguments and thread derailments. Why don't you just get a bunch of tweeters and use them for low frequencies, excellent transient response.

I guess the concerts you go to use small sealed 12" subwoofers?

It needs to be linear, with the bandwidth you want, with the output you want. Size of the driver doesn't matter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Wow.
LOL, you want to bury your head in the sand go ahead.

Face it, you are missing out.

I'm not burrying my head in the sand, science is what is, we can't get around it, we are governed by physical laws.
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post #24 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 03:06 PM
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True, you cant get around it.. work with it and get a bigger motor

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science is what is, we can't get around it, we are governed by physical laws.

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post #25 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 03:09 PM
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science tells us, generally speaking, the bigger and heavy an objective is going to be more affected by inertia, inertia means the same as slower, that is why bigger people typically aren't faster smaller people, they are more affected by the physical laws of inertia or gravity than smaller people.

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I'm not burrying my head in the sand, science is what is, we can't get around it, we are governed by physical laws.

Bad analogy.

What you have left out is the weight to power ratio in your example. Also, the human body has different types of muscles...ie. fast twitch vs slow twitch.

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"The diameter of a smaller sub would be 8" inches, any smaller and it might not be considered a legitimate subwoofer. The most popular sizes are 8", 10", 12" to 15". A 15" subwoofer is extremely large and will produce the lowest frequency bass at the highest volumes or decibels, making them the monsters among subs. However, large driver size doesn't necessarily make for the absolute best subs as many might automatically assume. The larger the driver, the slower the response to subtle changes in bass frequencies- the paradigm that exists in nature also exists with subs.

Large subs create more boom but since they're slower moving they aren't going to produce the tight bass response needed for most musical applications. For example, many overzealous fans of thick and heavy bass will invest in the most powerful 15" sub they can find. It will create earth shaking bass that will sound impressive for a narrow range of musical tastes. The large, powerful subs also sound impressive when recreating explosions and artillery fire in Home Theater movies. But when switching over to jazz or high tempo rock and roll where the subwoofer may be called upon to reproduce several sounds at once in a quick rhythm, it may sound muddied due to slow response."
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Bad analogy.

What you have left out is the weight to power ratio in your example. Also, the human body has different types of muscles...ie. fast twitch vs slow twitch.

That is why I said "generally" speaking. For example, I know there are some bigger guys than myself that can run faster than me do to the fact they are a lot more atheletic. If look you at sports, its usually the big guys that play on the O-line in football where speed in quickness is not necessary.
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post #28 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 03:23 PM
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"The diameter of a smaller sub would be 8" inches, any smaller and it might not be considered a legitimate subwoofer. The most popular sizes are 8", 10", 12" to 15". A 15" subwoofer is extremely large and will produce the lowest frequency bass at the highest volumes or decibels, making them the monsters among subs. However, large driver size doesn't necessarily make for the absolute best subs as many might automatically assume. The larger the driver, the slower the response to subtle changes in bass frequencies- the paradigm that exists in nature also exists with subs.

Large subs create more boom but since they're slower moving they aren't going to produce the tight bass response needed for most musical applications. For example, many overzealous fans of thick and heavy bass will invest in the most powerful 15" sub they can find. It will create earth shaking bass that will sound impressive for a narrow range of musical tastes. The large, powerful subs also sound impressive when recreating explosions and artillery fire in Home Theater movies. But when switching over to jazz or high tempo rock and roll where the subwoofer may be called upon to reproduce several sounds at once in a quick rhythm, it may sound muddied due to slow response."

Do you want to show us where you got that from? My guess is it is not a recent article.

Driver motors have developed to a point where the better larger drivers do not have these drawbacks.

Keyword in your post: "may"

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post #29 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

That is why I said "generally" speaking. For example, I know there are some bigger guys than myself that can run faster than me do to the fact they are a lot more atheletic. If look you at sports, its usually the big guys that play on the O-line in football where speed in quickness is not necessary.

I think that is your problem...the word "generally".

As I posted above, the better larger drivers do not suffer from the problems you point out.

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post #30 of 295 Old 02-23-2012, 03:27 PM
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Running. What a bad example.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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