Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RastaManMax View Post

Seems like a solid deal. A quick search on Google says that the JBL ES250PBK is 12" 400W RMS but very hard to find reviews despite its apparent excellent value...

EDIT: Lots of the Amazon reviews seem to suggest it's not the most reliable thing out there and repairs are costly.
Yes. On paper it looks like pretty good sub but if you buy one you are taking your chances. That's why you don't see it recommended a lot.

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post #992 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RastaManMax View Post

Thanks for that. I'm going to wait and see if something pops up in the $200-$250 range that is similar to the RW-12D or if I get frustrated, grab that and call it a day. Missed the Jamo 650 deal.
Yeah, that's basicly what I did. I just happened to get lucky and find that Jamo for $250.

Just an update on my situation: I'm now tracking the Jamo and it's making good progress from across the country. It's scheduled to be here on Tue.

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post #993 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I see. I meant no offense. I assumed that since you were doing sub reviews at another place that you made your living in some sort of AV capacity. And you do have a reputation here atleast that seems pretty good. I dont mind stating my opinion but when I do I make sure that people know that its only my opinion. I am far from any sort of expert at any of this stuff so most of the time my opinion is all that I have. smile.gif

I've been doing reviews for almost 2 years now, both here and for other sites, but it's a part time gig. There are surprisingly few people who actually make a living at this - a large portion of the people you see writing reviews are just like me; people with a passion for HT, but still want to eat. wink.gif

Ed Mullen from SVS is one of the few who went from being part time to making a career from this, so it's not unprecedented, but those folks are few and far between I'm afraid.

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post #994 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

I will say this though, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on the 660. From what I gather the 660 replaced the 650 in the model line and is pretty much the same sub.

I've been seeing people talk about that Jamo 650 Subwoofer like crazy. Sucks I missed out on that sale. But I did find a Jamo 660 for $649. Should I jump on that deal?

You are indeed correct; the 660 is pretty much a 650. When Jamo was purchased they had a ton of stock left over, hence the fire sale on the 650's last year. However, they didn't sell all their IP so the new owner -- Klipsch or Audiovox, depending upon how you want to look at it -- had to redesign some of the parts. They virtually duplicated what Jamo had made, so variations are minimal or non-existent.

For $650 the Jamo is not really a deal. $350-$400 perhaps, but much more then that and it's not very attractive.

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post #995 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 11:03 AM
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You are indeed correct; the 660 is pretty much a 650. When Jamo was purchased they had a ton of stock left over, hence the fire sale on the 650's last year. However, they didn't sell all their IP so the new owner -- Klipsch or Audiovox, depending upon how you want to look at it -- had to redesign some of the parts. They virtually duplicated what Jamo had made, so variations are minimal or non-existent.

For $650 the Jamo is not really a deal. $350-$400 perhaps, but much more then that and it's not very attractive.


Thank you... So which subwoofer would you would you buy? I'm curious to hear your opinion on a 12inch sub under 500 dollars
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post #996 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bigjoexxl View Post

Thank you... So which subwoofer would you would you buy? I'm curious to hear your opinion on a 12inch sub under 500 dollars
$500 for a sub is a bit of a dead zone. You are right in between 2 options. You can either get 2 subs that add up to about $500 or you can move up to the next level and spend $700-$1000 for a higher end single sub. Since 2 subs are nearly always better than 1 and most people cant afford to go higher they get 2 subs.

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post #997 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 12:05 PM
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I haven't had the opportunity to hear either of those subs myself, so unfortunately it's a bit difficult for me to say. I do see a lot of positive comments on the F12, relative to it's price, so that often seems like a good choice for people. I did want to add one thing though...

The wattage an amp produces can be a deciding factor, but only when comparing like for like. For example, the usable power from a 300 watt Class D amp may be 275 watts, while a 300 watt Class A/B might only be 225 watts. The type of design plays a key role in that regard, with amps like Class D and BASH being more efficient. There's also the drivers sensitivity to consider. A driver with a 90dB sensitivity hooked up to a 200 watt amp might actually have more usable output then one with 85dB sensitivity and a 300 watt amp.

Those are only generalization to make a point, so don't consider that to be accurate numbers. I was just trying to illustrate some of the other factors that come into play.

Thank you guys for your input. When it comes to the class D amp I get even more confused. I suppose deep into the threads I go to learn more. I was very tempted on pulling the trigger on that JBL, but I guess I have a few hours of more research to do before I do that. One roommate lives downstairs. Will the JBL down firing be more of an issue than a front firing sub?

The total amount of space without the staircases is closer to 1600 minus the stair cases. Would I have a problem with any of these for that size room? I am going to try and go to BestBUy today and hear that JBL if they have it in stock. You guys are gutsy for jumping in on a sub. Though I suppose in a sense it's all a gamble.

Bit surprised that the Dayton you recommended would be compared to the BIf C12 or the JBL 007 originally recommended. Plus being $60 cheaper it seems like that wouldn't be true...hmm, reviews here I come. Does anyone here have any side by sides with the three subs mentioned.

After hearing you all say the Polk subs suck I am definitely taking that out of the equation. Not sure why they have such good reveiws
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post #998 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 12:09 PM
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Downfiring will make no difference to the neighbor downstairs. Low frequency sounds are non directional. And if whatever sub you get is too loud you can turn it down.

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post #999 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

$500 for a sub is a bit of a dead zone. You are right in between 2 options. You can either get 2 subs that add up to about $500 or you can move up to the next level and spend $700-$1000 for a higher end single sub. Since 2 subs are nearly always better than 1 and most people cant afford to go higher they get 2 subs.

What about for $200-$300 single sub? I've read a lot of reviews/threads, etc. but it seems like sometimes one of the higher end subs dips down (S10.3, RW-12D, 650) so I want to make sure i'm not missing anything. I'd rather spend $200-$250 but if the RW-12D is a big step up, I suppose that could be a last resort...

Sub will be replacing a PSW111 which is fine for the room i'm in now (condo) but I want to get my system prepared for a move and do it slowly over time.
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post #1000 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bigjoexxl View Post

Thank you... So which subwoofer would you would you buy? I'm curious to hear your opinion on a 12inch sub under 500 dollars

I noticed in a previous post you mention HT and gaming as your top priorities. Do you see yourself being able to use dual subs, or would you prefer to stick with one instead?

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post #1001 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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The total amount of space without the staircases is closer to 1600 minus the stair cases. Would I have a problem with any of these for that size room? I am going to try and go to BestBUy today and hear that JBL if they have it in stock. You guys are gutsy for jumping in on a sub. Though I suppose in a sense it's all a gamble.

In a space that size virtually any of those subs would provide sufficient output, it's the sound quality aspect where you might find the greatest difference.

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Bit surprised that the Dayton you recommended would be compared to the BIf C12 or the JBL 007 originally recommended. Plus being $60 cheaper it seems like that wouldn't be true...hmm, reviews here I come. Does anyone here have any side by sides with the three subs mentioned.

I didn't chose the Dayton over the BIC or JBL, it was my choice when compared to the Polk.

Any subwoofer you buy that costs $200 or less is going to have audible compromises, be they in sound quality, output or depth. It's unavoidable. You're buying an amp, driver and cabinet for that price, which is a lot of stuff for not a lot of money. Factor in the labor to build it and the cost of shipping to the distributor. The manufacturer needs to make a profit too -- which is probably in the 50% range -- and what you end up with less then top flight components. Where a particular manufacturer chooses to cut corners differs, but they all must.

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After hearing you all say the Polk subs suck I am definitely taking that out of the equation. Not sure why they have such good reveiws

A lot of that can be attributed to the expectations of the people buying them.

The frequencies between 40Hz-70Hz are generally considered the "wow" factor area, where people will say 'wow!' during movie and special effects. Often manufacturers of budget subwoofers will embellish that range to make it seem as though their sub has great deep bass capabilities, but the reality is that's mid-bass. It's not a bad strategy, given their limitations, but it does tend to make people assume their sub has more abilities then it truly has. A lot of what you're reading can probably be attributed to that.

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post #1002 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 01:20 PM
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What about for $200-$300 single sub? I've read a lot of reviews/threads, etc. but it seems like sometimes one of the higher end subs dips down (S10.3, RW-12D, 650) so I want to make sure i'm not missing anything. I'd rather spend $200-$250 but if the RW-12D is a big step up, I suppose that could be a last resort...

Sub will be replacing a PSW111 which is fine for the room i'm in now (condo) but I want to get my system prepared for a move and do it slowly over time.
The 10.3 is impossible to find at a reasonable price now that they are in short supply. The people that do have them are trying to gouge everyone. The RW is the standard right now for $300 and worth it over most $200 subs unless you just happen to find a "great deal of the moment".

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post #1003 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 01:21 PM
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In a space that size virtually any of those subs would provide sufficient output, it's the sound quality aspect where you might find the greatest difference.
I didn't chose the Dayton over the BIC or JBL, it was my choice when compared to the Polk.

Excuse me on that point. Didn't realize you were only comparing it to the Polk only. If I am mostly going to be using this sub for HT (the occasional dance party will be once a month at most) you guys seem to have mentioned the F12, but if it's more musical the JBL will have a supposed better response. Am I getting this right? Or is just all what is plausibly assumed? *shrugs*
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The frequencies between 40Hz-70Hz are generally considered the "wow" factor area, where people will say 'wow!' during movie and special effects. Often manufacturers of budget subwoofers will embellish that range to make it seem as though their sub has great deep bass capabilities, but the reality is that's mid-bass. It's not a bad strategy, given their limitations, but it does tend to make people assume their sub has more abilities then it truly has. A lot of what you're reading can probably be attributed to that.
.

Makes sense to me. I guess most of us average joes are easily impressed with the "wow" factor at times. I do want that Low bass capability though. Feel the movie.
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Any subwoofer you buy that costs $200 or less is going to have audible compromises, be they in sound quality, output or depth. It's unavoidable. You're buying an amp, driver and cabinet for that price, which is a lot of stuff for not a lot of money. Factor in the labor to build it and the cost of shipping to the distributor. The manufacturer needs to make a profit too -- which is probably in the 50% range -- and what you end up with less then top flight components. Where a particular manufacturer chooses to cut corners differs, but they all must.
A lot of that can be attributed to the expectations of the people buying them.
.

Completely understand when it comes to this. I had a friend build my first subwoofer and it was GIGANTIC and rumbled the entire house we lived in. I bought the parts from Parts Express. I didn't nearly know enough than. Unfortunately, I no longer have it and don't have the tools or the time to build one right now. Though I haven't fully crossed it off my list if I could get such an incredible sub combo for $150. That way have extra for the tools necessary and get my total to around $200. Though I'm still strongly leaning towards just buying one.
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post #1004 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 02:01 PM
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I noticed in a previous post you mention HT and gaming as your top priorities. Do you see yourself being able to use dual subs, or would you prefer to stick with one instead?


I am capable of running dual subwoofers with my Martanz SR5006 that I'm using and I do think the idea of having 2 subwoofers would be kinda of cool. But in the end I just want the best performance and value. Also most importantly a nice clean bass that'll make my Call of Duty experience unbelievable. I guess the question is. Do I want to go with 1 high and subwoofer or 2 budget friendly subwoofers. No matter what subwoofer I go with I need recommendations please
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post #1005 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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If I am mostly going to be using this sub for HT (the occasional dance party will be once a month at most) you guys seem to have mentioned the F12, but if it's more musical the JBL will have a supposed better response. Am I getting this right? Or is just all what is plausibly assumed? *shrugs*

Truly musical subwoofers cost quite a bit more then $200, so I'm not sure that's really a selling feature of either the BIC or JBL. HT is not quite as discerning, so you can get by with less clarity because of everything else going on with the soundtrack. From what I can tell the JBL may have a history of amp issues, while the BIC is a know quantity, so perhaps the F12 is better suited to your needs.

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post #1006 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

The 10.3 is impossible to find at a reasonable price now that they are in short supply. The people that do have them are trying to gouge everyone. The RW is the standard right now for $300 and worth it over most $200 subs unless you just happen to find a "great deal of the moment".

Appreciate this. I'll do more reading on the RW-12d. The only thing that's a bit disconcerting is that I have to figure out how to pay for it since Newegg.com is really testy (even when shipping within the US) for us Canadians if I do end up going that route.
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post #1007 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bigjoexxl View Post

Thank you... So which subwoofer would you would you buy? I'm curious to hear your opinion on a 12inch sub under 500 dollars
$500 for a sub is a bit of a dead zone. You are right in between 2 options. You can either get 2 subs that add up to about $500 or you can move up to the next level and spend $700-$1000 for a higher end single sub. Since 2 subs are nearly always better than 1 and most people cant afford to go higher they get 2 subs.

I'm not sure I agree with that -- the PB1000 is sitting there right at $500 staring you in the face. It should be a good bit better than any of the $300-and-under subs.

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post #1008 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 03:54 PM
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I'm not sure I agree with that -- the PB1000 is sitting there right at $500 staring you in the face. It should be a good bit better than any of the $300-and-under subs.


But the BP1000 is only a 10 inch sub. I've always preferred sound of a 12 over a 10. But I really know nothing about home audio subwoofers. Which is why I'm looking for some much help...
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post #1009 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 04:06 PM
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Umm... there's a lot more to subwoofer design than the woofer size. It also has a pretty big cabinet and a very powerful amp, plus SVS design and engineering. You can't just generalize and assume it's inferior to cheaper 12" subs because of the woofer.

It's "only" a 10" sub but a whole bunch of 12" subs aren't going to be able to do this:


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post #1010 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 04:22 PM
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But the BP1000 is only a 10 inch sub. I've always preferred sound of a 12 over a 10. But I really know nothing about home audio subwoofers. Which is why I'm looking for some much help...

Sonically a 10 should sound no different than a 12, everything being equal. The larger surface area of the 12 will obviously give it an advantage.

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post #1011 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 04:32 PM
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I've always preferred sound of a 12 over a 10.
What the heck does this mean??? How is the sound different? Can you elaborate?

The amount of bass a driver generates is directly proportional to the amount of air it can move. That amount equals area times throw. The SVS may have a smaller driver, but because it has a very powerful amp, it may make up for it with longer throw. Also, a smaller driver is usually easier to control so the accuracy of the resulting bass is better.

As batpig noted, show me a $200 12" sub that can deliver as linear of a response as that 10" SVS.

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post #1012 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 04:46 PM
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The larger surface area of the 12 will obviously give it an advantage.
Output capacity is based on the product of driver cone area and excursion, which results in displacement. The pertinent T/S specs are Sd, Xmax and Vd. You can find some eights with more Vd than some eighteens.
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a smaller driver is usually easier to control so the accuracy of the resulting bass is better
A smaller driver is no 'easier' to control than a larger one. There is one and only one factor that is purely attributable to cone size, that being the angle of output radiation. It narrows when the cone diameter reaches one wavelength in dimension. Since subs operate at wavelengths ten feet and longer it's not a consideration with sub drivers.

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post #1013 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 05:08 PM
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What the heck does this mean??? How is the sound different? Can you elaborate?

The amount of bass a driver generates is directly proportional to the amount of air it can move. That amount equals area times throw. The SVS may have a smaller driver, but because it has a very powerful amp, it may make up for it with longer throw. Also, a smaller driver is usually easier to control so the accuracy of the resulting bass is better.

As batpig noted, show me a $200 12" sub that can deliver as linear of a response as that 10" SVS.



I just think a 12 has a deeper bass and sounds more aggressive I guess. Wouldn't anyone prefer a 12 over 10? Because I don't mind spending a little more money and getting a nice 12. You seem very confident about BP1000 and I like that. Do you own one yourself?

It all comes down too me being afraid to spend the large amount of money and not get a subwoofer I'll be happy with. There are so many different subwoofers out there and all kinds of deals.
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I just think a 12 has a deeper bass and sounds more aggressive I guess. Wouldn't anyone prefer a 12 over 10? Because I don't mind spending a little more money and getting a nice 12. You seem very confident about BP1000 and I like that. Do you own one yourself?

Well, if that's how you feel, then get a HSU VTF-2 MK4, Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus, or Rythmik FV12. Those are the step up from the PB-1000 (not BP). Then you won't have to second guess yourself. And you don't have to believe what everyone else is trying to tell you about the difference between 10" and 12".

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post #1015 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 05:30 PM
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A smaller driver is no 'easier' to control than a larger one.
Doesn't it take more effort/power to put a larger driver in motion or to reverse its motion?

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post #1016 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 05:36 PM
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And there is the SVS SB12-NSD with a 12" at $150 more than the BP-1000 except by specs the PB-1000 looks like it would go deeper. So far I am pretty set on the PB-1000.
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post #1017 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Well, if that's how you feel, then get a HSU VTF-2 MK4, Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus, or Rythmik FV12. Those are the step up from the PB-1000 (not BP). Then you won't have to second guess yourself. And you don't have to believe what everyone else is trying to tell you about the difference between 10" and 12".


I appreciate your 3 suggestions. But I google all 3 of them and wasn't able to find any of them. Do you have any links??
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post #1018 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bigjoexxl View Post

I appreciate your 3 suggestions. But I google all 3 of them and wasn't able to find any of them. Do you have any links??
Are you serious?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=HSU+VTF-2+MK4

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post #1019 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I'm not sure I agree with that -- the PB1000 is sitting there right at $500 staring you in the face. It should be a good bit better than any of the $300-and-under subs.
Its not. The RW12 is as good. Or atleast close enough imo not to be worth another $200. And since the pb1000 is about the only thing at $500 that makes it a dead zone. Unless you can name something that really is a good bit better than the rw at $500. This is of course a very general appraisal.

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post #1020 of 2962 Old 01-30-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Truly musical subwoofers cost quite a bit more then $200, so I'm not sure that's really a selling feature of either the BIC or JBL. HT is not quite as discerning, so you can get by with less clarity because of everything else going on with the soundtrack. From what I can tell the JBL may have a history of amp issues, while the BIC is a know quantity, so perhaps the F12 is better suited to your needs.
There are 2 jbl being tossed around here and it has lead to some confusion. I believe that you are talking about the ES250 that we all know has amp and circuit board issues. The Studio 1 series SUB150p is what I was suggesting to IslandStylin and has no amp issues that I am aware of. For the record is this the case or do you know about amp issues with the SUB150p also?

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