Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 2962 Old 02-06-2013, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RPGMasta View Post

I am looking to upgrade my Polk PSW110. TV/movies and music may be split 50/50, but music is 95% importance. The Cadence @ $279 sounds like my best bet after reading Jim's review. I am in a near square bedroom that has an additional "hallway" roughly 12x11x7.5 + 6x4x7.5

What type of music? Some require a greater degree of dynamics and articulation then others. Generally speaking though, it's hard to find a budget sub that can be considered musical. Some are better then others, of course, but musicality takes some pretty nice components, which means $$ I'm afraid.

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post #1082 of 2962 Old 02-06-2013, 10:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

While technically true, it's tough advice to swallow in a budget subwoofer thread. When you consider the two options are either (1) REW, which costs at minimum $100 to get up and running and has a STEEP learning curve, or (2) Omnimic, which costs $300, as much or more than the budget subwoofer itself.... it's not always practical for this level of buyer.

Agreed. But, I do the buyer a disservice by not planting the seed of how important have room measurement capabilities is regarding getting the best out of their subwoofer system. How my thinking goes, buy the budget minded subs of their choice and then when they come to the conclusion they're not getting the best out of their subwoofer system, hopefully they'll reflect on my comments, acquire room measurement capabilities and take the time to improve their situation by learning how to properly integrate their subwoofers into their room's acoustics.

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For the uneducated / low budget buyer, plopping down two subs in two random locations will likely yield a lot better response than a single sub plopped in a corner, so even then it's a huge benefit. It takes sophistication, time and know-how to try and use measurement software to optimize dual sub placement.

Agreeing with you when I post: And I hold the budget minded buyer in high enough esteem to encourage them to acquire, learn about and use room measurement gear to their acoustical benefit. cool.gif

I agree with everything you posted. biggrin.gif
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post #1083 of 2962 Old 02-06-2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

What type of music? Some require a greater degree of dynamics and articulation then others. Generally speaking though, it's hard to find a budget sub that can be considered musical. Some are better then others, of course, but musicality takes some pretty nice components, which means $$ I'm afraid.

My musical preferences do vary pending my mood, but mostly the breakdown might look like this:
Hard/classic rock - 55% (Rush, AC/DC, Def Leppard, Metallica)
Hip-hop - 25% ("NY" and Southern)
Country - 10%
pop/adult contemporary - 5%
Classical - 5%

Thanks for the assistance.

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post #1084 of 2962 Old 02-06-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

I would have bought that Cadence sub if I had a newer receiver with hdmi connections. As it is, I 've got an older receiver and wanted more hook up options than that sub offers otherwise that would have been my choice. Whether or not the connection options I have with the Jamo SUB 650, that I ended up getting used, are going to help me I don't yet know because I'm still experimenting with it. In the end, with a more modern receiver, I felt the Cadence was the best unit out there for the money considering the build quality, the amp, and overall looks of it.
You can take all of that with a grain of salt because this was my first subwoofer purchase and I haven't listened to any of these budget subs.

Al
The trick here is to collect all the grains of salt until you have enough to put in the salt shaker smile.gif thanks for the input.

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post #1085 of 2962 Old 02-06-2013, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RPGMasta View Post

The trick here is to collect all the grains of salt until you have enough to put in the salt shaker smile.gif thanks for the input.

I opted to just cover my bases with a more versatile sub. At my age, in the time it would take to collect all that salt I'd be deaf.

Al
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post #1086 of 2962 Old 02-06-2013, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

Well, I'm happy to say that my worries are over since my Jamo SUB 650 was delivered by UPS today. I'll tell ya, I was worried too! It was packed very well and arrived unscathed and by the time I had it sitting on the floor all I could do was look at it for awhile. It is a much better looking sub in person than I thought it was according to the pictures I've seen. Heavier than it looks at 48.9 pounds because it's somewhat compact looking at only H 16.5 x W 15.7 x D 16.5 for the measurments. It's the black version and has only one mark on it that I can see but is hardly noticeable.
Congrats on the new Jamo sub!! I'm glad it worked out for you. Let us know more about what you think once you use it some more.

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post #1087 of 2962 Old 02-06-2013, 05:16 PM
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I am still watching with interest. I am pretty sure I will be getting an SVS, probably the PB-1000. I know there are lots of good options showing up here but size and porting is important to me.

Today I talked to a an audio installer who said he thought my old Polk Audio PSW10 sounded pretty good and that I really did not need a sub that would go deeper than 30HZ. I bet the PSW10 would struggle to hit 35HZ at loud volumes.

My question is, for most HT viewing, how low do you really need to go?
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post #1088 of 2962 Old 02-06-2013, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

My question is, for most HT viewing, how low do you really need to go?

You might appreciate this discussion: What happens below 30hz and why is it important?
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post #1089 of 2962 Old 02-06-2013, 06:55 PM
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Thanks I enjoyed that and it was very useful.

The SVS PB-1000 may suit my purposes fine. Maybe even the SVS SB12-NSD and I am waiting to see Jim Wilson's test of the SVS SB-1000 too. The last one is about the only one I could go, 2 of.
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post #1090 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

Why not run an optical cable from the DVD player to your receiver? Although technically the end result may not be much different from what you're already doing. I guess it depends on which device has a better DAC. You'd just have fewer cables to deal with if you used optical. Also, I don't know if your receiver is capable of doing any sort of bass management on the incoming analog 5.1 signals. If it isn't, then that would be another reason to use an optical connection instead.

If this 100 Hz crossover setting on your receiver is a problem because you have large speakers, then it may just be time for a new receiver. You can get a decent entry level receiver with better bass management and HDMI switching for $200 these days.

Thanks for your input Pete. I can do that, I think. If I did go that way I would only be able to pass the older Dolby Digital and DTS formats and not the newer DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD.

I'll have to look again but I think my receiver is from 2001. An odd thing about it is the manual doesn't explain an optical connection for DVD/LD but instead it has an explanation for connecting the DVD player (or LD player) to the AC-3 RF coaxial output. Then it goes on to say if I use that output I would need to use an RF demodulator.

Anyway, I'll get a newer receiver one of these days and I might even try it with optical or coaxial when I get time but right now I just want to get the subwoofer dialed in and that's not an easy task with my current set up. I do like the sound from my Panasonic DMP-BDT500 blu ray player but it doesn't have much of a menu for speaker and subwoofer management. Oh', like I said earlier, my receiver is a Pioneer Elite VSX-21 and not the VSX-21 THX.

Al
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post #1091 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 06:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

Anyway, I'll get a newer receiver one of these days and I might even try it with optical or coaxial when I get time but right now I just want to get the subwoofer dialed in and that's not an easy task with my current set up.

When you can, do upgrade your AVR. Currently I use an optical connection from the Comcast box to the AVR and HDMI from the BluRay player to the AVR. My understanding, no HDMI cable, no higher end CODEC's.
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post #1092 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

When you can, do upgrade your AVR. Currently I use an optical connection from the Comcast box to the AVR and HDMI from the BluRay player to the AVR. My understanding, no HDMI cable, no higher end CODEC's.
Correct. Optical will not support lossless audio.

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post #1093 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 08:20 AM
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Just a quick question. Which one would you prefer? PA-10W or OSD PS10. This sub will be used for 90% movies and 10% music. Finalized these two as this sub needs to be shipped to a different country. Budget <$250. Looking for smallest sub.
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post #1094 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 08:33 AM
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Just a quick question. Which one would you prefer? PA-10W or OSD PS10. This sub will be used for 90% movies and 10% music. Finalized these two as this sub needs to be shipped to a different country. Budget <$250. Looking for smallest sub.
I would get the PA-10W. It is a better known brand. Has 25 more rms. Weighs 13 lbs more and looks like it has a better quality cone. Its also just better looking with the gloss finish and such. The OSD has a class A/B amp too which is ok but not prefered. I can't tell with the pa but it is likely class D.

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post #1095 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

When you can, do upgrade your AVR. Currently I use an optical connection from the Comcast box to the AVR and HDMI from the BluRay player to the AVR. My understanding, no HDMI cable, no higher end CODEC's.

But I do get the higher end codecs with the Analog Audio Out's going from my BDT500 blu ray player to my receiver. I simply let the blu ray player PCM the signal to the receiver and let the receiver's amp take it from there. The only problem is I can't use the preamp of the receiver and that means no bass magagement. Other than that, it sounds great!

Al
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post #1096 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 09:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

But I do get the higher end codecs with the Analog Audio Out's going from my BDT500 blu ray player to my receiver. I simply let the blu ray player PCM the signal to the receiver and let the receiver's amp take it from there. The only problem is I can't use the preamp of the receiver and that means no bass magagement. Other than that, it sounds great!

In the AVR, bass management is done internally. confused.gif

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post #1097 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In the AVR, bass management is done internally. confused.gif

-

Well, that's what I said. When connecting with Analog Audio Out's to the receiver the signal from the blu ray player bypasses the preamp and goes straight to the amplifier. The preamp in the receiver is where the tone controls and bass management and, basically, everything else the receiver will do is at except the actual amplification.

Your answer is confusing.

Al
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post #1098 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 10:22 AM
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Al, I'll bet if you page through the BD players menus, it'll have some sort of bass management option. It's not going to be as good as the receivers, but better than nothing. It should have speaker distance settings too.
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post #1099 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

Well, that's what I said. When connecting with Analog Audio Out's to the receiver the signal from the blu ray player bypasses the preamp and goes straight to the amplifier. The preamp in the receiver is where the tone controls and bass management and, basically, everything else the receiver will do is at except the actual amplification.

Your answer is confusing.

Al
Sorry Im coming in a little late. You are using the pre out for the sub but cannot use the bass management because of using the analog audio in. Correct? So the sub is working but you cant set the crossover, etc.

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post #1100 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 10:30 AM
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The Blu-ray player should have its own bass management settings for the analog outputs. Specifically because the multich analog inputs bypass the preamp section of the connected receiver.

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post #1101 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 10:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

Your answer is confusing.

Life's like that when AVR's won't get with our program.

Didn't know that BD players bypassed the pre-Amp. By connecting via HDMI, my understanding, the content is ported digitally and uses the AVR's DAC to unpack the CODEC's and in your case, wrongly figured analogue was simply sent to the pre-Amp, otherwise no bass management can take place. Sounds like your twelve year old AVR is holding you back. Whether using optical or HDMI, I don't see this as a problem with our SR5007 . With optical, we don't get HD but we still get decoding and bass management.

I just went over the connection pages and read the comments provided for in the SR5007 manual and no mention of limitations other than losing HD capability. If at all possible, allow me to encourage, when you can, upgrade your AVR and if you can't, sounds like you're doing the best you can.
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post #1102 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 10:42 AM
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The Blu-ray player should have its own bass management settings for the analog outputs. Specifically because the multich analog inputs bypass the preamp section of the connected receiver.
Are you saying it should or it probably does. I have never noticed any bass management settings on any of my bdp.

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post #1103 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 10:50 AM
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Are you saying it should or it probably does. I have never noticed any bass management settings on any of my bdp.
It does. The Panasonic DMP-BDT500's manual mentions the ability to set speaker sizes when when outputting analog audio (5.1) like Angler55 is doing. However, it does not mention what the resulting frequency crossover is based on the speaker size selected.

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Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

It does. The Panasonic DMP-BDT500's manual mentions the ability to set speaker sizes when when outputting analog audio (5.1) like Angler55 is doing. However, it does not mention what the resulting frequency crossover is based on the speaker size selected.
Nice option. Most manufacturers don't spend much time on analog anything anymore.

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post #1105 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Tack View Post

Al, I'll bet if you page through the BD players menus, it'll have some sort of bass management option. It's not going to be as good as the receivers, but better than nothing. It should have speaker distance settings too.

Thanks Tack,
Yeah, it does have a little bit of bass management and I've got it set now with a 6dB boost over the other five speakers. That improved it but not without consequences. In the BDT500 all I can do with the speakers is lower the decibal settings for each of them by -6dB at most. I lowered the decibals to the max for each speaker, excluding the subwoofer, to a minus 6dB. I do get a 6dB gain for the subwoofer by doing that but I also have to turn up the volume of the receiver by 6dB to play at my desired volume. It's a trade off and still leaves me with the question of how to get more gain for the sub without maxing out the volume and gain controls on the sub. I can get enough volume from the sub with everything turned up to the max but I just don't like the idea of running the sub that way.

I do have an LFE attentuator setting in my receiver that will either boost the sub by 10dB or lower it, I'm not sure which, but it doesn't seem to work because I can't notice a difference when switching back and forth. I'm having a similar problem with my Jamo SUB 650 in that the Boundry Gain control has me confused. I can't make heads or tails out of the skimpy manual they have on the Jamo sight.

Overall though, this sub is cool to mess around with and much better than not having one.

Al
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post #1106 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

Thanks Tack,
Yeah, it does have a little bit of bass management and I've got it set now with a 6dB boost over the other five speakers.
According to the manual, it also allows you to set speaker sizes. This in effect controls which frequencies get sent to the .1 channel (subwoofer) and which go to the 5 speakers. If this setting is only LARGE/SMALL, then I'd guess LARGE means full frequency spectrum goes to the speakers, and SMALL means everything below 80 Hz goes to the sub, but that's just a guess.
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I do have an LFE attentuator setting in my receiver that will either boost the sub by 10dB or lower it, I'm not sure which, but it doesn't seem to work because I can't notice a difference when switching back and forth.
Possibly because you're using the analog 5.1 inputs. Maybe your receiver does not apply any adjustments to signals coming in on these.

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post #1107 of 2962 Old 02-07-2013, 11:43 AM
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Sounds like it's time to upgrade to an HDMI receiver smile.gif

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Are you saying it should or it probably does. I have never noticed any bass management settings on any of my bdp.

Do they have multich analog outputs? That kind of setting would only be present if that were the case. Most BDP's typically just offer basic stereo analog outputs in addition to digital connections, and higher end players feature the multich analog options to connect with legacy (non HDMI) gear. In this case, they almost always feature some bass management options because receivers nearly always do NOT digitize the multich analog inputs, meaning that there is no opportunity for the processor to apply bass management.

In essence, when you use the multich analog inputs you are turning your receiver into an amplifier, bypassing the pre/pro stage, and the BDP is acting as the processor.

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Possibly because you're using the analog 5.1 inputs. Maybe your receiver does not apply any adjustments to signals coming in on these.

Some receivers allow a specific boost to the SW channel for multich analog to handle the +10dB LFE boost required for proper film playback. I know for a fact Denons have this setting (it's known as "EXT IN SW LEVEL"), but it's buried in the menus and not in the same place as the standard LFE attenuation setting used for digital sources.

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post #1108 of 2962 Old 02-08-2013, 04:30 PM
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After going over my Pioneer VSX-21 AVR manual and my Panasonic DMP-BDT500 blu ray player manual numerous times and reading everything I can find on AVS and the internet I have finally made some bass management progress with my 5.1 analog audio set up. Of course, the most useful setting was right in front of my eyes all along but, what the heck, I eventually found it. In my AVR manual on page 33 under "DVD 5.1ch input playback" it states "When DVD 5.1ch input is selected, only the volume level and channel levels can be set.". The DVD 5.1ch is the analog setting so this is telling me I can adjust the level of each speaker by + or - 10dB including the subwoofer. This is a major improvement over the 5dB's I gained in the BDT500's speaker menu. I had to turn the volume down on the sub as soon as it started playing. I set the subwoofer level at +10dB and left the other speakers at zero. I also raised and lowered the sub setting while it was playing and could clearly hear the difference so I'm positive I made some usable progress. Needless to say, I am very happy about this critical turn of events!

Now all I have to do is buy another Realistic Sound Level Meter. I did buy a used one some time ago and never tried to use it until a couple days ago and I can't get it to work. Put a good battery in it and the battery check on the meter says it's a good battery but the dang needle won't move at all. The only time the needle moves is when I have it set to battery check then when I set it to any of the available settings it doesn't move. Other than that, everything is going well!

Off to zero it in!

Al
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post #1109 of 2962 Old 02-09-2013, 06:41 AM
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post #1110 of 2962 Old 02-12-2013, 09:29 AM
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Since this thread has gotten a little quite, I thought I would start a debate...

21x15x8 living room (2,500+ cubic feet) and mostly HT listening

$600 budget

2 Klipsch RW-12Ds ($600) or
1 Outlaw LFM1-EX ($650) or
1 SVS PB-1000 ($500)


Current Planned 7.1 Setup:

Pioneer VSX-1020
Energy CF-70s (2)
Energy CC-10 (1)
Energy Takes (4)

Energy RC-70s (2) | Energy RC-LCR | Energy CB-5s (4) | SVS PB-2000 | Pioneer VSX-1020K | Samsung UN65F8000 | PS3 | PS4 | Apple TV (2nd gen) | DirecTV HR34 HMC | Harmony Ultimate
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