Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread - Page 49 - AVS Forum
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post #1441 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Wow. JimWilson taken to task for testing subs, providing the testing methodology and resulting data & graphs, and for making recommendations based on his testing. eek.gif

Jim, FW(little)I(may be)W, you have my sincere respect for the work you do. cool.gif
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

TMost definitely!

Thanks guys.

eljay; what would make you think your opinion doesn't matter? Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #1442 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 09:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Disassembly is relatively easy, it's the construction part where I seem to be lacking. Perhaps someday...

Don't let anybody kid you. Woodworking is a whole new hobby, complete with a shop full of gear and all the fiscal pain and suffering that comes with stocking a worthy wood working studio. When I retired from contracting, I gave away three pickup loads of tools, materials and supplies to a business friend so I comment from experience. If one doesn't believe me or wants to argue this point, my recommendation, stop by rockler.com and check out the truth of what I'm going on about.

Only go there if willing to light the candle. I don't care what anybody says, knowing what I know about the price of a quality setup, I can buy three subs much cheaper then it will cost to buy all the tools, gear and a shed to put everything in as our garage and shed is already as full as a "rational" person will allow.

A suggestion, before anybody decides to go DIY, stop by the DIY forum and check out the progress images and what the background looks like as these inexpensive marvels are created and assembled.
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post #1443 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 09:20 AM
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you can buy pre-made cabs for this purpose, does that make it much easier?

just 1 more pair of KLIPSCH Classic speakers...
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post #1444 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

How do you know that the company that makes your DIY amp arent lying about its specs? wink.gif
Because DIYers are the sort who have testing gear, know how to use it, and do. And they're not the least bit shy about posting the results of their tests, especially when the posted specs are spurious. I doubt one in a thousand owners of commercial subs have the gear, the ability, or the inclination, to test their amps. I doubt if one in a hundred measure their sub's frequency response. Manufacturers who fudge on specs are very aware of that.

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post #1445 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 09:34 AM
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A question for the guys here:
I'm trying to add bass to a stereo (2 channel R/L) only set up using small Boston satellites (CR6). They are 2 ways with 6 inch drivers.
I need it to run off the speaker level output (not LFE) of the amp. It should have adjustable xover, gain and auto power on.
I don't have a lot of room to work with where it can be installed, so I am limited to an 8" powered sub or a small 12" design.
FWIW, I have 100W into 8 ohms available, so I could probably even use a passive design of some sort, like the "tubes" you see for car stereos.

Most of the thread seems to be devoted to best bang for the home theater buck. What about a music only sub to fill out the bottom in a large room?
Thanks
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post #1446 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 09:44 AM
 
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That's kind of an easier said then done sort of question as large rooms take a lot of subwoofer based output to fill or pressurize them and that's gonna cost and the smaller a subwoofer's driver is, the less chance there is of it doing what you want it to do.

If filling out the bottom end of music only, then for the most part, subs capable of down six dB at about 24Hz, like a delivered Klipsch, RW-12d from Newegg.com for $350.00, would work. But with large rooms and a single sub solution, one has problems created by subwoofer based sound waves bouncing around in a room as you're now dealing with inevitable reinforcement/cancellation issues. Hence the need for multiple subs to smooth these room modes out.

How large is the room and what kind of budget are you working with.
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post #1447 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

you can buy pre-made cabs for this purpose, does that make it much easier?

Yes, to a point, and it increases the cost.

The finish work kills it for me. I can throw together a box and hide it somewhere, but, if it has to look good, too, count me out.


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post #1448 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Yes, to a point, and it increases the cost.
The finish work kills it for me. I can throw together a box and hide it somewhere, but, if it has to look good, too, count me out.

Ha ha.. That's why you cover it with veneer smile.gif

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post #1449 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 10:21 AM
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Absolutely, which is a PITA and, again, adds to the cost.

I admire the DIYers, but I'm not going to be one.

I'm VERY happy with my Klipsch 12d.


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post #1450 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

That's kind of an easier said then done sort of question as large rooms take a lot of subwoofer based output to fill or pressurize them and that's gonna cost and the smaller a subwoofer's driver is, the less chance there is of it doing what you want it to do.

If filling out the bottom end of music only, then for the most part, subs capable of down six dB at about 24Hz, like a delivered Klipsch, RW-12d from Newegg.com for $350.00, would work. But with large rooms and a single sub solution, one has problems created by subwoofer based sound waves bouncing around in a room as you're now dealing with inevitable reinforcement/cancellation issues. Hence the need for multiple subs to smooth these room modes out.

How large is the room and what kind of budget are you working with.

Thanks for the quick feedback.
I think that the RW-12d will be too large to fit on the shelf where it has to go. The area is open to two rooms, kitchen and dining, so I know I can not get good pressurization. This is for background listening, so I'm not worried about nodes. The budget is as cheap as possible, and still work; But no more than $200. A good 8" or compact 12' is what I had in mind.
Thanks
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post #1451 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 10:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post

The area is open to two rooms, kitchen and dining, so I know I can not get good pressurization. This is for background listening, so I'm not worried about nodes. The budget is as cheap as possible, and still work; But no more than $200. A good 8" or compact 12' is what I had in mind.s

I hate questions like this as I've found folks are wanting $2,000.00 worth of output in a $200.00 form factor. There's nothing wrong with doing this but it's a hard ideal to replicate.

There are two kinds of subwoofers, sealed and vented or ported. Ported for large rooms that open into other rooms and sealed for small rooms that benefit from room gain.

(if you know the above, my apologies for being so basic)

If you're expecting the subwoofer to have musical authority, you're setting yourself up for fail as you've limited yourself with your specifications. But if realistically, one understands they've intentionally limited themselves and are willing to live within the restrictions of the inherent limitations, then, for it's size, something like a Dayton, Sub 1200 would work but it's frequency limited.

And as one goes up the ladder of desirable features, cost goes up as well until you're at something like a SVS, SB-1000 (13"x13"x13" which is a small form factor) that runs $500.00. If one is willing to deal with a larger size, the ported, PB-1000 would be a better choice for your listening venue but it's larger and at $500.00, also above your stated budget of $200.00.

It all depends on how much one values their music, how many Benjamins they have to throw at the problem and what kind of limitations they're willing to live with.

-
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post #1452 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 10:53 AM
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The budget is as cheap as possible, and still work; But no more than $200. A good 8" or compact 12' is what I had in mind.
Dayton Audio
- SUB-800 ($79)
- SUB-1000 ($99)
- SUB-1200 ($119)


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post #1453 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 11:50 AM
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Check your local Craigslist for any possible deals. Check the classifieds here and other forums for local deals (at that low of a budget, shipping will be 50% of a sub cost so it's likely going to have to be local)

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post #1454 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Dayton Audio
- SUB-800 ($79)
- SUB-1000 ($99)
- SUB-1200 ($119)

All good sugestions.
I had a Dayton 12", but sold it a while back. It's good, but too big for this shelf. I get it that I'm pushing the form factor "bang for the buck", but isn't that what this thread is for...smile.gif
Any other suggestions for a good 8" or small 12'?
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post #1455 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 04:58 PM
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I had a Dayton 12" ... It's good, but too big for this shelf.
Okay, so, what are your max dimensions (l x w x h)?


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post #1456 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post

All good sugestions.
I had a Dayton 12", but sold it a while back. It's good, but too big for this shelf. I get it that I'm pushing the form factor "bang for the buck", but isn't that what this thread is for...smile.gif
Any other suggestions for a good 8" or small 12'?

JBL SUB150P has been down below $200 on sale at Newegg a few times: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=82-665-157.

Newegg testimonials for it are good, and someone on AVS bought it and liked it. If it's the right size, could be a good choice for you if it goes back down in price.

Here's a review: http://www.avhub.com.au/images/stories/australian-hifi/reviews/2011-05_to_12/2011-11/jbl_sub150p_subwoofer_review_lores.pdf

Your questions are answered:
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post #1457 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 05:11 PM
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If it's the right size, could be a good choice ...
Good deal, but unfortunately - and according to the specs - it's an inch or more bigger in each dimension than the too-large SUB-1200:
17-3/8" (w) x 17-3/8" (d) x 18-1/2" (h)


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post #1458 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 05:16 PM
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001RPW6UE/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A39ZEM0YEOKSJF

Its used but a really good sub for $199.

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post #1459 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

You may have waited too long for the Klipsch. It's been "Out of Stock" and "Discontinued" several times, but now it's "Not available":
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780078
This may be your next-best bet:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/67178-nxg-nx-bas-500-subwoofer-review.html
available for $260:
http://www.amazon.com/NXG-Technology-NX-BAS-500-500-watt-Subwoofer/dp/B008FSTU4G/ref=sr_1_1?m=A28SS3BS1DBQ92&s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1369768087&sr=1-1

Apparently so. As an alternative, I found a local deal on a Klipsch set that ill admit is a step down, but seemed like a killer deal for settling down until I can find the Perfect units. Does anyone have any feedback on the F2 speakers/sub? I have been looking for reviews and most reviews are fairly positive. seems to be a big bang for the buck! that said, they are 6-7 years old...

They are asking $345 for the set, which I may be able to get the price down a bit. The kit includes the following:

Klipsch F2 standing floor speakers (2), F2Center, and Sub (Sub 10. 120V model #T2.0AL 250V)

orlando.craigslist.org/ele/3715837033.html

seem like a good deal? Would anyone be worried about speakers sitting in storage for 3 years?
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post #1460 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 05:24 PM
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Like I said, if it was easy, I wouldn't need you guys...smile.gif
Thanks for the ideas.
The max height I can work with is about 12.5-13" Depth and width are not an issue.
The Energy looks good, but too big.
There was another one on that page that caught my eye.
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-ESW-C8-8-Inch-Subwoofer-Black/dp/B0021L9BMO/ref=pd_cp_e_0#productDescription
What do you think?
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post #1461 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post

Like I said, if it was easy, I wouldn't need you guys...smile.gif
Thanks for the ideas.
The max height I can work with is about 12.5-13" Depth and width are not an issue.
The Energy looks good, but too big.
There was another one on that page that caught my eye.
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-ESW-C8-8-Inch-Subwoofer-Black/dp/B0021L9BMO/ref=pd_cp_e_0#productDescription
What do you think?
A good choice. Hate to see you pay just as much for the 8 as the 10 but thats your business.

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post #1462 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 06:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Good deal, but unfortunately - and according to the specs - it's an inch or more bigger in each dimension than the too-large SUB-1200:
17-3/8" (w) x 17-3/8" (d) x 18-1/2" (h)
I just looked at your HT link...You ARE joking that the Dayton 1200 is "too big"???

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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001RPW6UE/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A39ZEM0YEOKSJF

Its used but a really good sub for $199.
Another piece of crap using 'peak' power to sucker the consumer into believing it is a good sub...

Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post

Like I said, if it was easy, I wouldn't need you guys...smile.gif
Thanks for the ideas.
The max height I can work with is about 12.5-13" Depth and width are not an issue.
The Energy looks good, but too big.
There was another one on that page that caught my eye.
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-ESW-C8-8-Inch-Subwoofer-Black/dp/B0021L9BMO/ref=pd_cp_e_0#productDescription
What do you think?
I think it is an over rated piece of crap for the price...Don't be suckered by the BS power ratings...
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post #1463 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 07:29 PM
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You obviously dont know anything about the older Energy subs.

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post #1464 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 07:56 PM
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I'm coming into this late and hope I don't repeat or offend. Picking up on recent questions to answer rather than offering specific solutions, this is some info that may help.

On the question of adequate sub for a large room. Always calculate LxWxH -- I have a living room/dining combo with overhead loft (high sloped ceiling). Total volume: 6000+ cubic feet. It takes me four (4) good-sized powered subs to really fill that space. (Yes, I put some real money into it many years ago.) When one of my subs went out, it was obvious. Still sounds good, but I'm retired and can no longer put that kind of money into my system.

This leads to another question. To fill large volumes you need to move a lot of air. My choice has always been to use 8" woofers. But my subs each have 2 or 4 of these. Calculate the area of air that can be moved by 8" vs. 12" woofers. (The math guys will use pi, but pi rounded to 3 will illustrate.). 3x8=24 while 3x12=36. But if the sub has TWO 8" woofers, that's 48 sq inches of air moved vs. 36. That's why I like 8" woofers.

Individually, 8" woofers are less costly and they are no where near as self-destructive as the larger woofers. Properly designed, the sub is more efficient.

Now there's more to it than that, but if woofer materials, construction, etc. are equal, I'll take the 8" route.

Rich
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You obviously dont know anything about the older Energy subs.
Have you learned NOTHING from my past posts in this thread, my friend? confused.gif

It is all in the amp and the advertising of such that does it in, at least as far as I am concerned anyway.
Quote:
240-watt custom matched amplifier for clean and deep bass down to 36hz
BS
Quote:
RMS Power Range - Amplifiers60 watts
Most probable
Quote:
With 240 watts, you'll hear and feel bass the way it's meant to be experienced
MORE BS

Quotes from the 8" sub for $300!!! eek.gif

C'mon man, you gotta LOOK to see the wool being pulled over ones eyes... wink.gif

Do you seriously intend to tell me that this lil' 8 incher can even come close to the quotes 1 & 3??? Bullsheetz...

HOWEVER it DOES have a "blue LED power status" rolleyes.gif
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post #1466 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 08:07 PM
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Youre missing out by judging everything solely on specs.

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post #1467 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You obviously dont know anything about the older Energy subs.

And power is a consumption value -- not related to efficiency. The 10" is 400W peak (yes, crapola) but 150W RMS. Good power - not especially efficient. (But efficiency cost money.). The 8" is 240W peak (more crapola) and I don't see an RMS rating. So go back to my basic premise -- 3x8=24 and 3x10=30. You lose 20% of air movement -- that's a lot for a sub regardless of quoted test results. And you can assume these are equal materials and build.

Bond is right, you'd be much better off trying to make the 10" work.

Rich
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post #1468 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 08:18 PM
 
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Youre missing out by judging everything solely on specs.
Yes, you are, of course, correct...I am missing out on wasting perfectly good money on CRAP! (damn phones that post before it is time!) wink.gif
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post #1469 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by richlife View Post

I'm coming into this late and hope I don't repeat or offend. Picking up on recent questions to answer rather than offering specific solutions, this is some info that may help.

On the question of adequate sub for a large room. Always calculate LxWxH -- I have a living room/dining combo with overhead loft (high sloped ceiling). Total volume: 6000+ cubic feet. It takes me four (4) good-sized powered subs to really fill that space. (Yes, I put some real money into it many years ago.) When one of my subs went out, it was obvious. Still sounds good, but I'm retired and can no longer put that kind of money into my system.

This leads to another question. To fill large volumes you need to move a lot of air. My choice has always been to use 8" woofers. But my subs each have 2 or 4 of these. Calculate the area of air that can be moved by 8" vs. 12" woofers. (The math guys will use pi, but pi rounded to 3 will illustrate.). 3x8=24 while 3x12=36. But if the sub has TWO 8" woofers, that's 48 sq inches of air moved vs. 36. That's why I like 8" woofers.

Individually, 8" woofers are less costly and they are no where near as self-destructive as the larger woofers. Properly designed, the sub is more efficient.

Now there's more to it than that, but if woofer materials, construction, etc. are equal, I'll take the 8" route.

Rich

Typical surface diameter (SD) of standard woofer sizes

8" - 200 cm2
10" - 350 cm2
12" - 500 cm2
15" - 800 cm2
18" - 1150 cm2

A 12" has 2.5 times more surface area then a 8". The increased SD of larger drivers allows them to be more efficient while still having a lower FS, and supporting longer excursion. Everything about the subwoofer frequency range is about how much air can you move. There is 0 advantage to a smaller driver. Not sure where you are getting some of this stuff (less self-destructive?)...


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Jay1 is offline  
post #1470 of 2962 Old 05-29-2013, 08:20 PM
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They are the same model except for size. The 10" is a respected sub here. Its cousin the Energy 10.3 was the best thing going until it sold out finally. I would not pay $300 for it but at $200 for a good used one its better than anything else mentioned imo.

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