Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread - Page 76 - AVS Forum

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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destructo-Bot View Post

BIC Acoustech PL-200 vs HSU STF-2?

I'm participating in a thread on another forum (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1796274) for a user wanting to build a gaming surround system. He's looking at the BIC PL-200 and I'm wondering if it will be worthwhile for him to pay a bit more for the HSU STF-2. Any thoughts?

It depends how much he values accuracy / linearity vs raw output. The BIC will put out a lot of boom but won't be as refined as the HSU, which is going to be more linear with better extension and lower distortion.

Considering it's a gaming system, big boom is probably more important.
Bond 007's Avatar Bond 007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destructo-Bot View Post

BIC Acoustech PL-200 vs HSU STF-2?

I'm participating in a thread on another forum (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1796274) for a user wanting to build a gaming surround system. He's looking at the BIC PL-200 and I'm wondering if it will be worthwhile for him to pay a bit more for the HSU STF-2. Any thoughts?
No way. If you want something you can hear save your money and get the pl200. Its better and cheaper.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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I would be stunned if the PL-200 was better. It may sound "louder" because of the extra distortion, and may be capable of more max output than the HSU in the mid-bass region, but no way it will be as accurate and linear down to 25Hz or below as the STF-2. It's not an output monster but I don't think there's anything you can find in the price range that is going to be more accurate (e.g. if music was a priority).

That said, I agree (as I wrote above) that for this application the PL-200 is a better fit. The PL-200 will go boom louder for video games.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Actually I take that back, the PL-200 doesn't have more output than the STF-2.

STF-2 review with measurements: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/188634-hsu-research-stf-2-subwoofer-test-review/
Quote:
To assess the maximum dynamic output from the STF-2, I conducted frequency response sweeps at the primary listening position at progressively increasing sound pressure levels until dynamic compression was noted. The STF-2 stayed linear up to about 108 dB. I also measured the distortion limited (10%) output at the listening position, and obtained 91 dB @ 20 Hz, 100 dB @ 25 Hz, and 103 dB @ 30 Hz.

PL-200 measurements: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=47&mset=45
Bond 007's Avatar Bond 007
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Graphs are nice. I owned an stf2 and I thought it was a terd. Cost me $75 to return it and my RW12d blows it out of the water.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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That was your experience. There is also a large body of evidence which contradicts that experience.
Bond 007's Avatar Bond 007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

That was your experience. There is also a large body of evidence which contradicts that experience.
True. But Im not alone.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Just severely outnumbered wink.gif
Bond 007's Avatar Bond 007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Just severely outnumbered wink.gif
You win. Please have the last word.
Audiophile2k's Avatar Audiophile2k
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Actually I take that back, the PL-200 doesn't have more output than the STF-2.

STF-2 review with measurements: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/188634-hsu-research-stf-2-subwoofer-test-review/
PL-200 measurements: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=47&mset=45

Keep in mind when comparing anything to databass numbers that they are more than likely not measured the same. Josh does a 2 meter outdoor ground plane measurement for the charts you see on databass...most others use 1 meter and sometimes "in room" response...in other words apples and oranges. Only compare data bass to other data bass measurements to be accurate in any conclusions you are drawing.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

I am in the process of finishing my basement and am building a open concept quasi-theater room. I wanted to close it off but this was not allowed due to WAF smile.gif The dimensions are about 24' front to back. In the attached images, it's 17' from the right wall to the column in the middle, and double that to the wall on the left. There is a large bulkhead running down the middle that does at least separate the space a bit, but for purposes of the sub it is open. The floor will be carpet and thick pad over concrete, with a little tile in front of the back bar area. More than likely I will end up with the Denon AVR-X4000.

I'm looking to pick my subs before the speakers, given the large space. Id say this will be used for at least 90% TV/Theater so music listening does not need to be considered. Excuse the crappy CAD models - these were created with an old version of SolidWorks which is intended for products, not home design.





I've looked and narrowed it down to a few options based on reviews, but you guys are the experts and I would appreciate any advice you can offer. I'd like to keep my sub budget under $2,500. Here are some options I've considered.

- Pair of HSU Research VTF-15H (DualDrive Package ~ $2,000 with shipping)
- 1 SVS PB13-Ultra (~$2,000)
- Pair of SVS PB12-Plus ($2,649)
- Pair of Power Sound Audio XS30 (~$2,200)
- Pair of Power Sound Audio XV30 (Currently sold out but I think a pair usually goes for ~$2,600)

Thanks all for your time. If there is a better place to post this, please let me know.

With that budget why are you posting in the budget sub thread? You would be much better off starting your own thread in the general sub forum.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Actually I take that back, the PL-200 doesn't have more output than the STF-2.

STF-2 review with measurements: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/188634-hsu-research-stf-2-subwoofer-test-review/
PL-200 measurements: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=47&mset=45

Keep in mind when comparing anything to databass numbers that they are more than likely not measured the same. Josh does a 2 meter outdoor ground plane measurement for the charts you see on databass...most others use 1 meter and sometimes "in room" response...in other words apples and oranges. Only compare data bass to other data bass measurements to be accurate in any conclusions you are drawing.

Fair point. But Ed Mullen also did most measurements at 2m ground plane if you read the review.

Regardless, the overarching point is that there isn't really any evidence to support the idea that the PL-200 is better than the STF-2, which was the claim I was responding to. Even if you grant some apples to oranges slack and credit the PL-200 with a bit of extra output potential in its peaky mid bass range, there is ample data that the HSU is superior in every other respect (linearity, distortion, and extension).

I will note the comments from data bass: "The PL-200 does not have a lot of extension or output and unfortunately the inductance of the driver limits the top end output as the upper bass of the response is greatly rolled off. On a positive note this subwoofer has a good limiter in place which makes it dummy proof and prevents you from blowing it up with too much input signal. Also the distortion performance above tune is quite good even at maximum output, but some vent noise was notable at the highest output levels. In room this unit should extend to 30Hz with useful output."

BTW I owned the BIC VK12 (sort of the predecessor to the PL-200) and it moved plenty of air, I would heartily recommend it as a budget ht sub. But I would never describe it as tight, accurate or musical, qualities which the HSU should bring to the table. Also note again that I didn't feel it was worth the extra money for somebody setting up a budget gaming system.
tcramer's Avatar tcramer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

With that budget why are you posting in the budget sub thread? You would be much better off starting your own thread in the general sub forum.

Thanks Batpig. I've deleted that post and started my own thread here.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Good luck and hang onto your wallet wink.gifbiggrin.gif
Bond 007's Avatar Bond 007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Good luck and hang onto your wallet wink.gifbiggrin.gif
+1
ousooner2's Avatar ousooner2
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On another topic...got my pair of e1010i's in. They are certainly beautiful subwoofers! I've had a little more than an hour with them so far ...so don't draw too many conclusions based on this yet, but as of right now my my thoughts are that I made a great choice in selling the rw-12d's. The e1010i's sound quite a bit better in terms of musical reproduction and accuracy. I won't draw my conclusions until I have a lot more time with them, but for now they are easily the better choice based on what I've listened to. I could immediately tell it sounded better in my room and to my ears. I've noticed they are much much better on more complex passages (I'll note all these songs in a formal review later). Even at lower volumes, the resolution in the lower notes is cleaner.

Edit: Just watched a little bit of Iron Man 3......wow. So much cleaner. The SPL is still there, if not more than the rw-12d in my room



And some shots for those that like it...biggrin.gif

GusGus748s's Avatar GusGus748s
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

On another topic...got my pair of e1010i's in. They are certainly beautiful subwoofers! I've had a little more than an hour with them so far ...so don't draw too many conclusions based on this yet, but as of right now my my thoughts are that I made a great choice in selling the rw-12d's. The e1010i's sound quite a bit better in terms of musical reproduction and accuracy. I won't draw my conclusions until I have a lot more time with them, but for now they are easily the better choice based on what I've listened to. I could immediately tell it sounded better in my room and to my ears. I've noticed they are much much better on more complex passages (I'll note all these songs in a formal review later). Even at lower volumes, the resolution in the lower notes is cleaner.

Edit: Just watched a little bit of Iron Man 3......wow. So much cleaner. The SPL is still there, if not more than the rw-12d in my room



And some shots for those that like it...biggrin.gif

That's a nice set up. I placed an order for the Emptek, but after Brian told me I wasn't going to get them till after Xmas, I cancelled it. I like the looks of the Empteks. You can't go wrong with them specially since you can still get them on sale. I was also thinking of ordering dual e1010i subs, since I sold my whole 7.2 set up, which included dual Klipsch RW-12D's. I ended up going over my budget and ordered a PSA-XV15. biggrin.gif

Now, all you've got to do is get a better media player j/k wink.gif
JimWilson's Avatar JimWilson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

On another topic...got my pair of e1010i's in. They are certainly beautiful subwoofers! I've had a little more than an hour with them so far ...so don't draw too many conclusions based on this yet, but as of right now my my thoughts are that I made a great choice in selling the rw-12d's. The e1010i's sound quite a bit better in terms of musical reproduction and accuracy. I won't draw my conclusions until I have a lot more time with them, but for now they are easily the better choice based on what I've listened to. I could immediately tell it sounded better in my room and to my ears. I've noticed they are much much better on more complex passages (I'll note all these songs in a formal review later). Even at lower volumes, the resolution in the lower notes is cleaner.

And some shots for those that like it...biggrin.gif

Hmm... $400 subwoofers in the budget thread? Where's my bouncer, Batpig! tongue.gif

That is one very clean looking setup you have there. I hope the subs work out for you. Those speakers were crying out for something better than the RW-12d.
Transmaniacon's Avatar Transmaniacon
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They were $250 when he purchased them wink.gif
ousooner2's Avatar ousooner2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

That's a nice set up. I placed an order for the Emptek, but after Brian told me I wasn't going to get them till after Xmas, I cancelled it. I like the looks of the Empteks. You can't go wrong with them specially since you can still get them on sale. I was also thinking of ordering dual e1010i subs, since I sold my whole 7.2 set up, which included dual Klipsch RW-12D's. I ended up going over my budget and ordered a PSA-XV15. biggrin.gif

Now, all you've got to do is get a better media player j/k wink.gif

Thanks!

What about a media player? What do you mean? Sorry...I'm slow today lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Hmm... $400 subwoofers in the budget thread? Where's my bouncer, Batpig! tongue.gif

That is one very clean looking setup you have there. I hope the subs work out for you. Those speakers were crying out for something better than the RW-12d.

They were $500 for the pair. Cheaper than the rw-12d's I purchased at $275/ea at Newegg! They go on sale at $250/ea sometimes and for the price...it's a no brainer. I watched Iron Man 3 again as that was the last movie/movie clip I watched before I sold the rw-12d's and I can say for sure that the accuracy and dynamics are much better than the rw-12d's. If they Klipsch rw-12d's were a huge hit at $300-$325.....people are going to love these! I've heard a lot of subs (mainly in the car audio realm; AE IB15's, JL w7/w6/w3's, ID idq/idmax, etc etc...quality stuff and set up correctly) and I believe I can attest for what sounds good/accurate/etc versus something that's not. Obviously that's subjective to some extent, but you all know what I mean. Not that the rw-12d's weren't a great value, these are just....better. smile.gif I wish I would have gone this route initially, but at least I got my money back on the rw-12d's
GusGus748s's Avatar GusGus748s
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

Thanks!

What about a media player? What do you mean? Sorry...I'm slow today lol

The picture that you posted. On the TV screen it has the WD symbol. I used to have a WDTV live media player, which I gave to my parents. It's an okay media player, but can't compare to my Dune Smart Series D1. biggrin.gif I apologize if it is something else. If it is a WDTV media player don't forget to upgrade the firmware. WDTV now support HD sound.
ousooner2's Avatar ousooner2
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Oh yeah! Haha good eye. I was looking at my signature as was like how the heck does he know what I have lol. I'm out of it today haha.

I don't 'hate' the WDTV-Live, but it's definitely not as smooth as I'd like. It gets the job done though. I don't know much about streaming devices and what might be better, I just went into it asking around what I'd need to play FLAC/WAV music files and .MKV files (blu-ray) and not many seemed to be able to do that. I was actually going to mention I don't like that it won't support HD audio from blu-ray's, but I didn't know that's what the new update did! Nice! I was too excited to listen to the new subs last nigth I just skipped the update haha.

I'll have to check out what you have. I just need something that can play .MKV's mainly. I would use my built PC as a HTPC, but it's all the way across the house and running Ethernet and an HDMI from it to the Denon would be a PITA (the ceiling of my study is highly vaulted and very very difficult to access in the attic). I just lay an ethernet cord on the ground from the router to the WDTV when I'm playing a large, full size blu-ray (.mkv) lol. Classy I know...but it get the job done. If you know a lot about these devices then I'll have to shoot you a PM.

I've heard about the xbox having a good media center or capabilities I think. I might pick up an Xbox One if it's a more capable and better streaming device than what I have...and I can play some BF4 on it
JimWilson's Avatar JimWilson
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For anyone who might be interested... I just published my review of the Dayton Audio SUB-1200. You can use this link to access it.
Bond 007's Avatar Bond 007
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Thanks Jim
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

Not that the rw-12d's weren't a great value, these are just....better. smile.gif I wish I would have gone this route initially, but at least I got my money back on the rw-12d's

Out of curiosity, the RW12D's should beat the pants off those Empteks in output and extension. The review I found of the 1010i (link here) shows only moderate output and a quick drop-off below 30Hz, whereas the RW12D is capable of pretty monstrous output for the price and hits hard down to 25Hz. Not many subs in its budget class (relative to the Newegg sale prices) could really touch it in those areas.

So is it just that you find them more pleasing in terms of accuracy and musicality, and they have sufficient output for your needs?
Jimmyjames121's Avatar Jimmyjames121
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Hi Jim, thank you so much for your review. Do you believe dual sub 1200s would beat most single entry level subs in a large room? (Bic pl200, psw505, etc)

Thanks for your help!


James
ousooner2's Avatar ousooner2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Out of curiosity, the RW12D's should beat the pants off those Empteks in output and extension. The review I found of the 1010i (link here) shows only moderate output and a quick drop-off below 30Hz, whereas the RW12D is capable of pretty monstrous output for the price and hits hard down to 25Hz. Not many subs in its budget class (relative to the Newegg sale prices) could really touch it in those areas.

So is it just that you find them more pleasing in terms of accuracy and musicality, and they have sufficient output for your needs?

Where did you find 2m groundplane RMS measurements for the Klipsch RW-12d to compare to the e1010i?

If you look at this page (http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/emptek-es1010i/emptek-es1010-listening-tests) in that same review his measurements (in-room) show it down to 25hz before it starts to roll-off. That's in a 15x20 room and BEFORE the upgrades to it giving a little more extension (3dB from 25hz-30hz..maybe more in room I don't know). The rw-12d's definitely were no slouch and I haven't had enough time with the e1010i's to say they're better in extension and output, but my first impressions were that they were noticeably more accurate and ..for the people who like these terms...musical. Output seems to be the same to me. The top end seems much smoother and not as boxy sounding. Almost like resonance from the rw-12d's (crossover at 80hz and about 3dB's hotter than the mains) above 65-70hz. I'm off all next week so I'll have plenty of play time with them biggrin.gif
JimWilson's Avatar JimWilson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyjames121 View Post

Hi Jim, thank you so much for your review. Do you believe dual sub 1200s would beat most single entry level subs in a large room? (Bic pl200, psw505, etc)

A lot of that hinges upon what your definition of a 'large room' is, but in a general sense they probably would. Depending upon how they're placed you could potentially gain up to 6dB of output (which is a lot). Duals also have the added benefit of giving you the opportunity to smooth out any room issues by varying their placement.
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Might have to pick up a sub-1200 or sub-1000 for the study! Need to order those Micca mb42x's too!
Bond 007's Avatar Bond 007
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OK. I have to ask. Any thoughts on how the Dayton Audio SUB-1200 might compare to the Bic F-12?

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