Dual Captivators, not enough BASS!!!!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I've been doing a lot of listening to my new dual Captivator/Triple 12HT setup. It's music only and I have the Caps HPFed at 20Hz and crossed over at 100Hz.

I'm running my iPod and CD player through an Alesis MultiMix USB to a Behringer DCX-2496. From there, I have 2 ouputs to a Crown XLS5000 running the T12s in stereo and 2 other outputs to 2 other XLS5000s running the Caps in 8-ohm bridged. Dedicated circuits for the amps, each one run with 10AWG.

I absolutely love the sound of this setup. It's soooo much better than the Klipsch RF-83s they replaced (louder AND sounds better at all levels). However, I think I may have developed Carp's disease of not enough bass......

For everyday whole-house listening it's great. Perfect, as it may seem. But when I really push it, the clip lights on the XLSes for the Caps start lighting up before I get to the level I want. The gain on them is maxed out, and the gain on the amp for the T12s is just above halfway, which gives me a good system balance at "normal" levels.

Here's what I'm looking for.....If I turn it up until I get the clip lights for the Caps and then max the gain to the T12s, I get the volume I'm after. The only problem is the amps for the Caps are already maxed out and the T12s run off and leave them.

So I have one of 2 problems. Either the Caps are sucking so much power that I'm getting a line voltage drop that limits the output and causes the clip lights (the lights in the house don't go steadily dim, but they do pulse pretty good with the bass) OR the 91dB sensitivity is just plain outmatched by the T12s.


I'm thinking it's the latter. I've been looking at other options and think I would prefer to stay with JTR. Looks like my choices would be the Orbit Shifter or Orbit Shifter PRO. I'm really liking the PRO version because of its 103dB sensitivity and passive operation.


What thinks the masses???? (about my dilemma, not sanity)

EDIT: Update with graphs -- http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21712821

EDIT 2: To alleviate some confusion, these are set up in my music room, which is supposed to be a 10x12 dining room. It's open to the rest of the house and fills about 8k cuft. Not a big open space with high ceilings, just several rooms with 8' ceilings. My "listening position" is dynamic, meaning I am using it to fill the house when I'm moving about. I am NOT listening at insane levels, right by the speakers.
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post #2 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 05:45 AM
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How large is your room and exactly how loud are you listening?

How many amps is the circuit (circuits) that all the gear is plugged into, and is that circuit dedicated to your system?

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post #3 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 05:53 AM
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How many db's are you getting from just the subs? If it's not at least 120 at your LP then yeah, I think something is wrong....

If you are after car audio type bass in your room then Orbit Shifters are the way to go but they are huge!!
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post #4 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post

However, I think I may have developed Carp's disease of not enough bass......

Just re-read, missed this the first time.

Carps Disease. Sounds like a very serious condition!! haha
It's also highly contagious.
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post #5 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 06:11 AM
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Cap pros aren't far behind orbit shifters in output above 20hz. Meaning for anything music related. They use the exact same driver and while Jeff has taken down the max useable output line on the cap pros on his website if I remember correctly it was same ballpark for the two subs.

I'd imagine some sort of setup issue is afoot If you are unhappy with bass levels. Your room is tiny and you are running a xls5000 on each sub right?

That should be 3600 watts per sub if using one amp bridged per 8ohm sub!!!!
http://crownaudio.com/amp_htm/xls.htm

Maybe your sub levels from your receiver or prepro aren't matched to the pro amps properly. You should be hitting mid high 120s likely even low 130s in that small room with relative ease from the cap pro pair. I'd say call Jeff and run the scenario by him! You should easily experience car audio levels of bass with that setup!

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post #6 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Cap pros aren't far behind orbit shifters in output above 20hz. Meaning for anything music related.

Jeff told me 2 Caps would be close to 1 Orbit Shifter above 60hz, but the OS would still have the advantage.

He said below 60 hz the difference would be larger in the OS favor.
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post #7 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 06:18 AM
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There goes Archaea... Orbit Shifter hatin' again....
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post #8 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 06:31 AM
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I think there is a set up issue. If you are running each sub with it's own amp, it should be more than enough. Have you tried to max the receiver out put to max?
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post #9 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 06:50 AM
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Carp

Ha!
NOT orbit shifter hating - just Cap loving!

Didn't the Cap Pros used to say 132dB or 133dB usable output on Jeff's site? The orbit shifter says 139dB usable output.
EDIT --- there was some controversy around the specs which is perhaps why Jeff took it down, but I google searched it an apparently the Cap Pros were originally quoted at 136dB at 60hz according to this page. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...186832&page=52

You are right there is extra capacity on the orbit shifters, but say the Son can readily hit mid 130-135 in his room for music with his pair of Cap Pros and a couple XLS5000 amps ----- should that not be sufficient to where we wouldn't see this thread saying there isn't enough bass.

He's running that setup in a small bedroom 10' x 12' sized space! If he's not peeling the drywall off at max volume levels something is wrong!


From the Son in the JTR Cap Pro thread -


Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post

Just placed my order. 2 passive Caps and 2 T12s. For a 10x12 room.



(.....but it is open to the rest of the house)

Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post

The location where my Caps and T12s will go.

This is my music room.




*there are many rooms like it, but this one is mine*

SO now you can see what I'm dealing with. The Caps and T12s will, obviously, go where the Klipsch RF-83s currently reside.
Please ignore the fact that I have only gotten the DCX and 2 XLSes mounted in the rack. Patience. Still have to run the dedicated circuits.

Some use for a "formal" dining room, huh?

Here is a link from page 109 of the JTR Cap Pro thread of his finished setup and placement.

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post #10 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 06:58 AM
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What SPL is being hit?
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post #11 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You should be hitting mid high 120s likely even low 130s in that small room with relative ease from the cap pro pair. I'd say call Jeff and run the scenario by him! You should easily experience car audio levels of bass with that setup!

That's some insane output, in a good way, of course. I cannot imagine that's not enough bass for him, even with "Carp's disease."

I'm with Archaea - sounds like a setup or power issue. How big is this room (Archaea said it was small?)?

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post #12 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 07:35 AM
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10x12 feet and open to rest of house. See picture above!

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post #13 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

10x12 feet. See picture above!

I agree with you! In a room that size two Caps should destroy your ears before the subs give out or amp clip. Did the OP take measurements, maybe he has a null that is sucking out some bass. One more thing, those numbers are for 1 meter outdoor measurements so could be lower at the LP. I lose 12 dB's at my LP so 130 dBs from a sub at 1 meter becomes 118 dBs.
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post #14 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I agree with you! In a room that size two Caps should destroy your ears before the subs give out or amp clip.

Indeed. Something is amiss.

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post #15 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 08:46 AM
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You have either lost your mind or your hearing

I must ask, what is the 12HT, I have seen this speaker a few times. Is it a big center channel or sub?
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post #16 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 08:55 AM
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Archaea, got your message - yeah you are right. There is no way 2 caps shouldn't be killing him in that room especially with those amps. Does he need dedicated 20 amp lines?
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post #17 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

You have either lost your mind or your hearing

I must ask, what is the 12HT, I have seen this speaker a few times. Is it a big center channel or sub?

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-12ht/
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post #18 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 09:12 AM
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I'm probably way off, but does the Alesis MultiMix USB have any output voltage issues? I'm not familiar with the piece, so like I said, I'm probably way off.

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post #19 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Archaea, got your message - yeah you are right. There is no way 2 caps shouldn't be killing him in that room especially with those amps. Does he need dedicated 20 amp lines?

OP says he has dedicated lines for each amp using 10awg. --- If he isn't tripping breakers even if he is using 15amp breakers - I doubt that's his problem.

I knew there was an undetermined initial setup problem from the beginning,
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...e+son&page=110) I remember seeing the Son say he thought the caps weren't doing much over what his previous sub, a Klipsch RW-12D, was doing, and having had a pair of Klipsch RW-12D subs in my room recently and comparing them to my Cap Pro pair --- there is NO WAY that should ever be.

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post #20 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 10:34 AM
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Subs out of phase?
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post #21 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow. Quite the attention I've drawn. Sorry for seeming absent, I'm a day sleeper.

I apologize for leaving some information out. I thought it might have been assumed. The dedicated circuits are on 20A breakers. I ran 10AWG to reduce the chance of voltage loss over the distance because the cost was negligible.


As Archaea pointed out, I did have initial problems with severe lack of bass. However, after a few hours of operation, everything opened up and there was plenty. Made me fall in love with the new setup.

That's still not a problem at normal levels.

I usually run about 110-115 dB at 9 feet. Remember, though, that I'm not hanging out at the doorway. My LP is all over as I tool around the house, so I wouldn't imagine it's a LP null since the LP isn't static and I have good bass in the sweet spots at normal levels. When I want to crank it more than this is when the problem arises.

I have already tried running one sub and no mains. The pulsing of the lights is reduced, but the clip light doesn't change. And I can't imagine it's lack of input because the mains don't have any problem. Increasing the input, as someone suggested, is what is raising the volume and that's when the clip lights show. I've tried lower gain and higher input with no change except the position of the knobs (as I would expect).

I plan to get some REW sweeps this week, but it may have to wait until the weekend.

For now, I'm going to try lowering the XO to 70Hz and increasing the rolloff of the 20Hz HPF to take some of the load off the Caps.
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post #22 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post


I plan to get some REW sweeps this week, but it may have to wait until the weekend.

For now, I'm going to try lowering the XO to 70Hz and increasing the rolloff of the 20Hz HPF to take some of the load off the Caps.

Good call on REW - I was just going to recommend doing that.

I don't think lowering the crossover will help. From everything I've read and heard from others those Caps can take a pounding (pun intended ). It makes absolutely no sense that you're underwhelmed with them in that size room. There has to be a huge null or a setup issue (no offense, of course). I look forward to your measurements, as that should explain a lot.

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post #23 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 11:53 AM
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You use one amp running mains and caps?
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post #24 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

You use one amp running mains and caps?

From the 1st post ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post

I have 2 ouputs to a Crown XLS5000 running the T12s in stereo and 2 other outputs to 2 other XLS5000s running the Caps in 8-ohm bridged. Dedicated circuits for the amps, each one run with 10AWG.


HToM

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post #25 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post

Wow. Quite the attention I've drawn. Sorry for seeming absent, I'm a day sleeper.

I apologize for leaving some information out. I thought it might have been assumed. The dedicated circuits are on 20A breakers. I ran 10AWG to reduce the chance of voltage loss over the distance because the cost was negligible.


As Archaea pointed out, I did have initial problems with severe lack of bass. However, after a few hours of operation, everything opened up and there was plenty. Made me fall in love with the new setup.

That's still not a problem at normal levels.

I usually run about 110-115 dB at 9 feet. Remember, though, that I'm not hanging out at the doorway. My LP is all over as I tool around the house, so I wouldn't imagine it's a LP null since the LP isn't static and I have good bass in the sweet spots at normal levels. When I want to crank it more than this is when the problem arises.

I have already tried running one sub and no mains. The pulsing of the lights is reduced, but the clip light doesn't change. And I can't imagine it's lack of input because the mains don't have any problem. Increasing the input, as someone suggested, is what is raising the volume and that's when the clip lights show. I've tried lower gain and higher input with no change except the position of the knobs (as I would expect).

I plan to get some REW sweeps this week, but it may have to wait until the weekend.

For now, I'm going to try lowering the XO to 70Hz and increasing the rolloff of the 20Hz HPF to take some of the load off the Caps.

Running 110-115db with music is extremely loud. That's a whole 'nother animal from running movies with a 115db peak LFE at reference levels. With music at those levels, the average level of the bass is much higher and much more constant than in movies. If you are going to listen to music at those levels (which is a really bad idea for your hearing, trust me) you might actually need higher output subs than a pair of Cap 1K's. The orbit shifters would be more appropriate.
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post #26 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post

I've been looking at other options and think I would prefer to stay with JTR. Looks like my choices would be the Orbit Shifter or Orbit Shifter PRO. I'm really liking the PRO version because of its 103dB sensitivity and passive operation.

What thinks the masses???? (about my dilemma, not sanity)

Considering the output potential of these subs, questioning your sanity is reasonable ...
Actually, it sounds like you know what you are doing but if the clip lights are happening and the bass is "weak" at various (all?) locations in the room then something is definitely amiss. If the problem is that you simply have an insatiable thirst for bass, then the OS Pro might be the answer.

Before you make another mistake (assuming you have ) and since you are located in the deep south, have you looked at Danley? They have some very interesting options and they are relatively close to you (short road trip to their demo room).

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post #27 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 01:15 PM
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Mojo and RMK, these are full blooded caps, not cap 1000s, and something is amiss.

The Son is sending them 3800 watts each in 8ohm bridged mode according to specs with one sub per amp. The 70 pound xls5000 got 5-7db greater output than a ep4000 according to gorilla83s review about a month ago on his captivator pair. He was hitting high 120s in his 6000 cubic foot room open to the rest of the house with one xls5000 wired to 2 caps in two ohm stero.

I've hit 125db tapping clip lights with dubstep in my room at main listening position with my cap pros on a ep4000 according to a ratshack meter! 2 ohm stereo. 3500 cubic foot room!

With these experiences in hand. Something is configured wrong if he is out of headroom or clipping at 110 to 115 with a hpf at 20hz and a small room!

There should be no way those passive caps with 3800 watts each should be considered underwhelming pretty much regardless of room size for home theatre or music use. I'm fairly confident I could place the cap pros I own in our 300 seat church sanctuary and rock the house for music! In fact I know I could because the 2 pa subs we use now that work fine are of much lesser quality!

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post #28 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Mojo, these are full blooded caps, not cap 1000s, and something is a miss.

The Son is sending them 3800 watts each in 8ohm bridged mode according to specs with one sub per amp. The 70 pound xls5000 got 5-7db greater output than a ep4000 according to gorilla83s review about a month ago on his captivator pair. He was hitting high 120s in his 6000 cubic foot room open to the rest of the house with one xls5000 wired to 2 caps in two ohm stero.

I've hit 125db tapping clip lights with dubstep in my room at main listening position with my cap pros on a ep4000 according to a ratshack meter! 3500 cubic foot room!

With these experiences in hand. Something is configured wrong and hour agoupd not be out of headroom or clipping at 110 to 115 with a hpf at 20hz and a small room!

Ohhh, my mistake. A pair of full-fledged Caps should ace those levels easily(although still a bad idea for one's ears). I'd bet on a setup problem with the amp.
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post #29 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Mojo, these are full blooded caps, not cap 1000s, and something is a miss.

The Son is sending them 3800 watts each in 8ohm bridged mode according to specs with one sub per amp. The 70 pound xls5000 got 5-7db greater output than a ep4000 according to gorilla83s review about a month ago on his captivator pair. He was hitting high 120s in his 6000 cubic foot room open to the rest of the house with one xls5000 wired to 2 caps in two ohm stero.

I've hit 125db tapping clip lights with dubstep in my room at main listening position with my cap pros on a ep4000 according to a ratshack meter! 3500 cubic foot room!

With these experiences in hand. Something is configured wrong and hour agoupd not be out of headroom or clipping at 110 to 115 with a hpf at 20hz and a small room!

Agreed. When I had a single Cap powered by a ep4000 I could hit 120db from the LP 12-13ft away.

Two caps with well over twice the power each and only 115db...something is wrong.
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post #30 of 104 Old 02-28-2012, 01:25 PM
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Have you verified your Caps are each wired in a series for 8ohm operation?

Are you absolutely sure your amp is in bridged mode and you're wired correctly?
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