Rythmik FV12 or Outlaw LFM1-EX? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I want to purchase a great sub and I was wondering what sub I should choose. I have a large room about 18x24' and it is open to dining room and kitchen. Eventually this sub will be moved to a dedicated theater room that will be sealed. I just want to know if I should wait until the Outlaw is not on back order or get the Rythmik. The Rythmik is cheaper and is on sale. I dont have to pay for shipping either. I dont want to cheap out. I would rather spend the extra 150 on the outlaw if it truely is a better sub. Please let me know what you think. Thanks

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post #2 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Anybody?

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post #3 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 08:38 AM
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Well, your room is already considered large, but you also have to take into account the kitchen and dining room since the listening room opens to them. Neither subwoofer will pressurize that large of a space, but since you'll be moving it to a dedicated theater why don't you list the estimate dimensions of that space (LxWxH). For your current situation the Outlaw will likely offer better extension and output in that sized space, but I've never seen CEA-2010 measurements of the Rythmik FV12 so I can't say for sure. Again, I would purchase based on the size of your future theater room.

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post #4 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

Anybody?

At the moment the LFM-1 EX is backordered till sometime in later March! I have about the same room size as yours and I also have a LFM-1 EX and I want another! It does not seem to fill the room as I would like! I cannot comment on the FV12, but I would imagine that it would not be any better! I would suggest going with a big 15" sub or two EX's!! At the moment I hooked up a F12 to help fill the room, but I would prefer another EX! You can always put 2 EX's in you theater!

When I bought my new Denon 2312ci I hooked up everything and just out of the box I hooked up the EX, cranked up the gain, manually tweeked all the speakers and it sounded good with deep bass that shook the room! It seems like after I ran Audyssey, it put the handcuffs on the sub? I have not experienced that same bass since then? Needless to say, I am not very happy, but I think I need to work on it some more! If I don't get better results, I am going to sell it and get a Seaton or a Captivator.
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post #5 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

When I bought my new Denon 2312ci I hooked up everything and just out of the box I hooked up the EX, cranked up the gain, manually tweeked all the speakers and it sounded good with deep bass that shook the room! It seems like after I ran Audyssey, it put the handcuffs on the sub? I have not experienced that same bass since then? Needless to say, I am not very happy, but I think I need to work on it some more!

After you ran Audyssey did you change the Xover freq to what you want/what sounds best??? Also did you use an SPL meter to get 75db with all speakers to your listening position???

I have my Front L&R and all 4 surrounds set to 75db at my listening position and my center 2db hot and subs 2db hot.

I have dual LFM-1 Pluses before running Audyssey I set each one individually to 75db at the listening position with AVR sub level at 0db by adjusting the gain on each sub. So with both subs on its 78db at listening position with 0db on AVR and I boosted the AVR to +2db. My bass is awesome, plenty loud, feel the air moving from very deep bass heavy movies, and still get the punch in the chest feel with a gunshot in a movie.

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post #6 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Well, your room is already considered large, but you also have to take into account the kitchen and dining room since the listening room opens to them. Neither subwoofer will pressurize that large of a space, but since you'll be moving it to a dedicated theater why don't you list the estimate dimensions of that space (LxWxH). For your current situation the Outlaw will likely offer better extension and output in that sized space, but I've never seen CEA-2010 measurements of the Rythmik FV12 so I can't say for sure. Again, I would purchase based on the size of your future theater room.

Future theater will be approx. 18x12x9. I figured the Outlaw would be recommended. Real curious about the Rythmik sub. How does it compare to the outlaw straight up? I see that it can go a little bit lower in Fq. It also looks to have more tuning options. I just dont see as many people talking about it as much as I do the Outlaw.

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post #7 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 09:58 AM
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See shadyj's recent review of the FV12 where he does compare it to the EX.

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post #8 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

After you ran Audyssey did you change the Xover freq to what you want/what sounds best??? Also did you use an SPL meter to get 75db with all speakers to your listening position???

I have my Front L&R and all 4 surrounds set to 75db at my listening position and my center 2db hot and subs 2db hot.

I have dual LFM-1 Pluses before running Audyssey I set each one individually to 75db at the listening position with AVR sub level at 0db by adjusting the gain on each sub. So with both subs on its 78db at listening position with 0db on AVR and I boosted the AVR to +2db. My bass is awesome, plenty loud, feel the air moving from very deep bass heavy movies, and still get the punch in the chest feel with a gunshot in a movie.

I sent you a PM
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post #9 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

See shadyj's recent review of the FV12 where he does compare it to the EX.

Thanks....That helped a lot!

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post #10 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

See shadyj's recent review of the FV12 where he does compare it to the EX.

That's good stuff, but it's not CEA-2010 standard measurements, and unfortunately it won't tell the OP how it'll sound in his room. Shady made a nice write-up, though.

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post #11 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post


When I bought my new Denon 2312ci I hooked up everything and just out of the box I hooked up the EX, cranked up the gain, manually tweeked all the speakers and it sounded good with deep bass that shook the room! It seems like after I ran Audyssey, it put the handcuffs on the sub? I have not experienced that same bass since then? Needless to say, I am not very happy, but I think I need to work on it some more! If I don't get better results, I am going to sell it and get a Seaton or a Captivator.

I know exactly what you are talking about. I went from an Onkyo 609 that only had Audyssey 2eq to a Denon 4311 with Multeq xt32 and have not felt that punch from my Plus since then. From everything that I have read the sub was probably boosting a peak before that I liked around 30-35hz where now it is eq`d flat where it should be. It is a lot more tight and accurate, but I miss that punch and wall rattling. I need to pull the port plug and try it in max output mode to see the results with the new version of Audyssey I have.

This is not from the sub, but more of a room correction software that one has to get accustomed to I guess, so OP I think you would be happy with either sub, but know that you will probably want another in the future so plan ahead.

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post #12 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

That's good stuff, but it's not CEA-2010 standard measurements, and unfortunately it won't tell the OP how it'll sound in his room. Shady made a nice write-up, though.

So you are saying there is no useful evidence for comparing these two subs?

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post #13 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 12:56 PM
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So you are saying there is no useful evidence for comparing these two subs?

For Shady, no, that's not what I am saying. For him it was very useful. But for us, it's not as useful. The listening room affects the sound as much as the subwoofer, as does placement of said subwoofer. Unless your room is exactly the same as Shady's and you place your sub(s) in the same location, the results could be completely different in your room. Personal bias and tastes need to be factored in, and yours may differ from his. You really need to see ground plane measurements to compare apples to apples. Don't get me wrong - I am not discounting what he did. Like I said, his results are extremely useful for himself, just not so much for others as our systems and rooms are completely different, not to mention placement options. It would be like me saying "Hey, strawberries are the best fruit, period. I sat down and had a piece of every fruit on the planet, and strawberries are the best." There are just too many different variables at play to make a purchasing decision based on someone else's opinion or how one product performed in one person's room.

The most important thing you can do is listen to the products you're interested in in your own room. Unfortunately this isn't always doable, so... But for subwoofers, ground plane measurements are the next best thing. Unfortunately that isn't the case with speakers, amps, etc. This hobby is a tough one...

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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

That's good stuff, but it's not CEA-2010 standard measurements, and unfortunately it won't tell the OP how it'll sound in his room. Shady made a nice write-up, though.

And from what I have seen I don't always trust the CEA measurements.. Depending on a number of factors, we seem to have some pretty big differences depending on who does the measuring, what equipment they are using, whether they measure from 1m or 2m, etc.

Hopefully the entire industry can wrap their brain around this...
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post #15 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 01:12 PM
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And from what I have seen I don't always trust the CEA measurements.. Depending on a number of factors, we seem to have some pretty big differences depending on who does the measuring, what equipment they are using, whether they measure from 1m or 2m, etc.

Hopefully the entire industry can wrap their brain around this...

Yes, you obviously have to pay attention to the 1m or 2m distance, but everything else varies very little. Where have you seen big differences? The only legit sources I've seen are Ilkka, Josh Ricci and Audioholics. If someone else is claiming to use CEA-2010 but haven't proven it, well, they shouldn't be listened to.

With all this said, the Rythmik FV12 is a great subwoofer for the money; it'd be my pick for $500.

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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

Future theater will be approx. 18x12x9. I figured the Outlaw would be recommended. Real curious about the Rythmik sub. How does it compare to the outlaw straight up? I see that it can go a little bit lower in Fq. It also looks to have more tuning options. I just dont see as many people talking about it as much as I do the Outlaw.

For a room that size I would think the Rythmik will perform very well.

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post #17 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Yes, you obviously have to pay attention to the 1m or 2m distance, but everything else varies very little. Where have you seen big differences? The only legit sources I've seen are Ilkka, Josh Ricci and Audioholics. If someone else is claiming to use CEA-2010 but haven't proven it, well, they shouldn't be listened to.

With all this said, the Rythmik FV12 is a great subwoofer for the money; it'd be my pick for $500.

I don't want to derail the thread, and from everything I have read and heard from others, the Rythmilk seems like a "sound" choice, but some of the testing at Audioholics between the reviewers seems off.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...ion-022112.xls

Case in point, look at the numbers Josh Ricci (who I have lots of respect for) measured the Outlaw LFM-EX sub with one port plugged. Now keep in mind this is a subwoofer designed by Dr. HSU and should perform closely to the HSU VTF3-MK4. Now look at the numbers Paul Apollino published for the VTF-15H (I don't know if this was one port plugged, 2 ports open, it does not say). The Outlaw equals it or exceeds it in almost every frequency range depending on one port open or two ports open (again, we don't know).

Something seems off since we know the HSU VTF15H will outperform the HSU VTF3-MK4. Per HSU it takes at least 2 MK4's to come close to one 15H, and the VTF3 should come very close to the Outlaw EX. Keep in mind the VTF-15H has a larger driver, larger cabinet, more tuning options, etc.

Then we have Sound And Vision post their CEA-2010 results for the VTF-15H and the numbers are not even close to Audioholics, but are apparently very close to the numbers HSU measured. Keep in mind that S&V measured at 1m vs 2m, but from my understanding you add 6db to the 2m numbers to match the 1m numbers:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...oofer?page=0,3

Not really close at all, even factoring in the 6db (1m vs 2m) difference, again, using the CEA-2010 standard.

What also makes me suspicious about the VTF-15H in the AH review is that Josh shows the PA-150 actually trumping the posted numbers for the VTF-15H in some of the higher frequency ranges, and as the owner of both of these subs, I find that hard to believe. Something is off. I am going to take measurements of both subs and see if this is the case. Just based off my ears the VTF-15H is in a whole different league than the PA-150, even in the higher frequency ranges.

Hence my conclusion that, even using the CEA-2010 standard, it seems to come down to the person doing the measuring their equipment (and who knows what else)..
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post #18 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 03:03 PM
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I don't want to derail the thread, and from everything I have read and heard from others, the Rythmilk seems like a "sound" choice, but some of the testing at Audioholics between the reviewers seems off.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...ion-022112.xls

Case in point, look at the numbers Josh Ricci (who I have lots of respect for) measured the Outlaw LFM-EX sub with one port plugged. Now keep in mind this is a subwoofer designed by Dr. HSU and should perform closely to the HSU VTF3-MK4. Now look at the numbers Paul Apollino published for the VTF-15H (I don't know if this was one port plugged, 2 ports open, it does not say). The Outlaw equals it or exceeds it in almost every frequency range depending on one port open or two ports open (again, we don't know).

Something seems off since we know the HSU VTF15H will outperform the HSU VTF3-MK4. Per HSU it takes at least 2 MK4's to come close to one 15H, and the VTF3 should come very close to the Outlaw EX. Keep in mind the VTF-15H has a larger driver, larger cabinet, more tuning options, etc.

Then we have Sound And Vision post their CEA-2010 results for the VTF-15H and the numbers are not even close to Audioholics, but are apparently very close to the numbers HSU measured. Keep in mind that S&V measured at 1m vs 2m, but from my understanding you add 6db to the 2m numbers to match the 1m numbers:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...oofer?page=0,3

Not really close at all, even factoring in the 6db (1m vs 2m) difference, again, using the CEA-2010 standard.

What also makes me suspicious about the VTF-15H in the AH review is that Josh shows the PA-150 actually trumping the posted numbers for the VTF-15H in some of the higher frequency ranges, and as the owner of both of these subs, I find that hard to believe. Something is off. I am going to take measurements of both subs and see if this is the case. Just based off my ears the VTF-15H is in a whole different league than the PA-150, even in the higher frequency ranges.

Hence my conclusion that, even using the CEA-2010 standard, it seems to come down to the person doing the measuring their equipment (and who knows what else)..

I agree about the VTF-15H; something seems amiss. However, that's only one subwoofer/example, and there might be a perfectly good explanation for the differences. It's possible Paul simply received a faulty unit that didn't perform as well. We just don't know. One thing I have noticed, though: Sound and Vision's CEA-2010 measurements always seem to differ than everyone else's. I wonder what they are doing differently. I also found it interested that Brent Butterworth said he re-measured the VTF-15H a second time due to issues with the CEA-2010 standard and his acquiring of new measuring equipment. I'd be curious to know if that is at play as well.

Anyway, I hear what you're saying, and I agree they'll never be a perfect measuring system. But right now CEA-2010 is the best we've got; we just need to hope whoever is measuring is following the procedure correctly and using gear that is more than capable. In the end, I'll take CEA over some guy's opinion any day. With that said, please keep me posted on your measurements; I'm curious to see what you find.

P.S. There's no way that PA-150 is better than the HSU VTF-15H. It may offer more output at certain frequencies, but something is certainly off. I guess we'll have to convince Josh Ricci to measure the HSU instead of Paul.

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post #19 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

For Shady, no, that's not what I am saying. For him it was very useful. But for us, it's not as useful. The listening room affects the sound as much as the subwoofer, as does placement of said subwoofer. Unless your room is exactly the same as Shady's and you place your sub(s) in the same location, the results could be completely different in your room. Personal bias and tastes need to be factored in, and yours may differ from his. You really need to see ground plane measurements to compare apples to apples. Don't get me wrong - I am not discounting what he did. Like I said, his results are extremely useful for himself, just not so much for others as our systems and rooms are completely different, not to mention placement options. It would be like me saying "Hey, strawberries are the best fruit, period. I sat down and had a piece of every fruit on the planet, and strawberries are the best." There are just too many different variables at play to make a purchasing decision based on someone else's opinion or how one product performed in one person's room.

The most important thing you can do is listen to the products you're interested in in your own room. Unfortunately this isn't always doable, so... But for subwoofers, ground plane measurements are the next best thing. Unfortunately that isn't the case with speakers, amps, etc. This hobby is a tough one...

Even the subwoofer ground plane measurements are problematic from this perspective. They are more detailed than shadjy's more subjective assessment, and a more accurate comparison, but they also suffer from the same issue: it's not the individual's room. So the big difference between the two is what accuracy someone attributes to shady's rater reliability. If shady's reliability could be as high as the scientific instruments in the CEA2010 tests and the methodology, then your validity concern about room acoustics holds equally true for both of them.

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post #20 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 05:05 PM
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I would say an even bigger discrepancy for the CEA2010 standards is the different measurements Josh Ricci obtained for the Rythmik FV15HP from Paul Apollonio. I think both their measurements are good, but only insofar as they can be compared to the measurements they themselves made on other subs. So we know how a PB12 Plus compares to a FV15HP as Apollonio compared them in the same circumstances with the same equipment, but you can't use those measurements to compare the subs performance to anything Ricci or Ilkka have done, and you can't compare measurements made by Ilkka with those done by Ricci. There are just too many variables.
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post #21 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Even the subwoofer ground plane measurements are problematic from this perspective. They are more detailed than shadjy's more subjective assessment, and a more accurate comparison, but they also suffer from the same issue: it's not the individual's room. So the big difference between the two is what accuracy someone attributes to shady's rater reliability. If shady's reliability could be as high as the scientific instruments in the CEA2010 tests and the methodology, then your validity concern about room acoustics holds equally true for both of them.

You're right, but we're talking a true apples to apples comparison here. The CEA standard shows what the subwoofer is capable of in the least ideal scenario (no room gain, no boundaries, etc). How is that a problematic set of data? It's more useful than anything else. Which one is closest to a true apples to apples, someone's in-room listening session of multiple subs or ground plane measurements of the same subs? I think the answer is obvious. The one thing that none of these listening sessions and measurements will tell you is how the sub(s) will perform in your room. But if you put in the research time, study the CEA measurements and take careful setup steps, you can be confident the subwoofer will work out well for you. You cannot simply purchase blind, drop it wherever you want and expect perfect results, though.


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There are just too many variables.

Like what? The only main con to this system is the differing equipment and people measuring. But I'll say this, it's a lot less variables than if I measured a bunch of subwoofers in my own room, or if I didn't measure anything at all and just gave my subjective impressions.

Like I said, there is no perfect measurement system, but nothing touches CEA-2010. It takes more variables out of the equation than any other method, and that is why it's the standard. And just so you guys know, Josh is now working for Audioholics, so he will be the one doing the measurements. I imagine he'll be using the same equipment and measurement methods, which makes his results very accurate. Ilkka also used the same equipment and methods, so you cannot discount his results either.

Now just so we're clear, I am not discounting Shady's testing. I myself helped set up and run a subwoofer shooutout in SE Wisconsin a few years ago at Warpdrv's house (search the forum and you'll find the thread), and it was no easy task. In fact, it was extremely difficult, so mad props to shadyj. Josh Ricci was at our GTG, for what it's worth. Anyway, the one thing we all realized is our impressions and results were only good on that day, for those listeners, in that room and using that equipment. As usual results may vary, so it is never wise to buy a subwoofer based on someone else's opinion or in-room measurements. However, one could certainly buy a subwoofer based on the CEA set of measurement data, because it literally is that much more accurate and telling.

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post #22 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 09:50 PM
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Like what? The only main con to this system is the differing equipment and people measuring. But I'll say this, it's a lot less variables than if I measured a bunch of subwoofers in my own room, or if I didn't measure anything at all and just gave my subjective impressions.

You tell me, but when different results are coming up from the same exact subwoofer using the the same methodology, there are obviously some variables being overlooked. Maybe its some small setting in the equipments calibration. You're right in saying CEA2010 is better than anything we have had before, but I think there may be some room for some more specification. I might suggest same exact mic with same exact soundcard using same software, all with identical settings. I realize how problematic that would be to implement, but it would certainly rule out some variables.
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post #23 of 97 Old 02-29-2012, 10:00 PM
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You tell me, but when different results are coming up from the same exact subwoofer using the the same methodology, there are obviously some variables being overlooked. Maybe its some small setting in the equipments calibration. You're right in saying CEA2010 is better than anything we have had before, but I think there may be some room for some more specification. I might suggest same exact mic with same exact soundcard using same software, all with identical settings. I realize how problematic that would be to implement, but it would certainly rule out some variables.

It makes it worse when brand A is reviewed and says its output is better than brand B and then someone purchases brand A only to find either at a friends house or if they loaded them up and tested them in the same room with the same equipment only to find its just the opposite of whats been publicized.
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post #24 of 97 Old 03-01-2012, 05:42 AM
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You tell me, but when different results are coming up from the same exact subwoofer using the the same methodology, there are obviously some variables being overlooked. Maybe its some small setting in the equipments calibration. You're right in saying CEA2010 is better than anything we have had before, but I think there may be some room for some more specification. I might suggest same exact mic with same exact soundcard using same software, all with identical settings. I realize how problematic that would be to implement, but it would certainly rule out some variables.

I completely agree with you. In the case of Ricci and Ilkka I'm pretty sure that's what they did, though. I'm also confident Josh will continue with that method now that he works for Audioholics. I still have to think there was something wrong with the vtf-15h, though. It just doesn't make sense...

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post #25 of 97 Old 03-01-2012, 06:08 AM
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It makes it worse when brand A is reviewed and says its output is better than brand B and then someone purchases brand A only to find either at a friends house or if they loaded them up and tested them in the same room with the same equipment only to find its just the opposite of whats been publicized.

True true, but again, a better test would be to ask that friend to bring the subwoofer over to your house, as it could be a totally different animal in your room. Reviews are very misleading; we need to be very careful about making purchases based on them. I'll tell you what, though, I'd certainly take the VTF-15H over the LFM-1 EX. I'll very kindly ask Audioholics (or specifically Josh Ricci) to re-measure the HSU. Of course, HSU would have to get on-board with it and send them another subwoofer... You guys think the good Doctor would send them one?


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Now look at the numbers Paul Apollino published for the VTF-15H (I don't know if this was one port plugged, 2 ports open, it does not say). The Outlaw equals it or exceeds it in almost every frequency range depending on one port open or two ports open (again, we don't know).

I just found out: it was with two ports open. This was a mistake on Paul's part IMO, as he didn't measure in maximum extension mode. It does, however, absolve the CEA-2010 standard as flawed, but unfortunately places the blame on the reviewer. Paul said he ran out of time to test in maximum extension mode, but that is unacceptable IMO. With that said, output above 30Hz would have suffered, so it's a trade-off. There is a 27 page thread (short pages, though) about it that can be found here. Check it out if you guys are interested (I noticed shadyJ participated it in, and brought up some very good points)>

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post #26 of 97 Old 03-01-2012, 07:12 AM
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True true, but again, a better test would be to ask that friend to bring the subwoofer over to your house, as it could be a totally different animal in your room. Reviews are very misleading; we need to be very careful about making purchases based on them. I'll tell you what, though, I'd certainly take the VTF-15H over the LFM-1 EX. I'll very kindly ask Audioholics (or specifically Josh Ricci) to re-measure the HSU. Of course, HSU would have to get on-board with it and send them another subwoofer... You guys think the good Doctor would send them one?

Audioholics has to pay to have these subwoofers tested (Gene made it very clear that he paid Paul). And based on the exchanges I was seeing between Audioholics and HSU, I don't think you will ever see the VTF-15H retested by AH. I even question if Audioholics and HSU will work together to test any subs in the future. Perhaps if somebody shipped their 15H to Josh and he did it on his own time and dime, And Josh probably would as he is that kind of guy.

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I just found out: it was with two ports open. This was a mistake on Paul's part IMO, as he didn't measure in maximum extension mode. It does, however, absolve the CEA-2010 standard as flawed, but unfortunately places the blame on the reviewer. Paul said he ran out of time to test in maximum extension mode, but that is unacceptable IMO. There is a 27 page thread (short pages, though) about it that can be found here. Check it out if you guys are interested (I noticed shadyJ participated it in, and brought up some very good points)>

When I was researching subs to buy, I went back and read through everything. And it was clear that there were some issues with the first test, but Paul apparently retested the 15H and measured a number of different settings (one port open, two, different EQ and Q settings) but for whatever reason the measurement excel sheet I linked to contains, what I believe, is the original with both ports open, the wrong EQ and Q settings, and with the sub lying down (HSU still claimes that the triangular ports make it challenging to get a true measurement on it's side vs standing up). I really don't know what to make of the retest, or the fact that the review Sound And Vision and Home Theater Magazine performed on the HSU are so drastically different from Paul's review. It was not the subwoofer, HSU double checked the 15H Paul tested and they said it was fine and they retested it using the CEA-2010 standard and it matched their original numbers (and what Brent Butterworth measured). Something is just off between how the various parties are measuring. And I agree with shadyj. I don't think CEA-2010 is useless at all, but it is most likely only really useful when comparing numbers from the same reviewer (assuming they don't change their technique or equipment). As it seems, technique, equipment, and other variables can result in some very different findings. If Josh reviewed the HSU, I think it would be much easier to compare his number to the other subs he tested.

It is great that there is a standard, but I think people need to be very careful using these CEA-2010 numbers between two different reviewers when comparing subwoofers. I spoke to HSU about the VTF3-MK4 vs the VTF-15H, and they were very clear that these have been measured using the same techniques and equipment and that a single VTF3-MK4 is not going to compete with a single 15H. You would need multiple VTF3's to compare with a single VTF-15H.

It is what it is. I noticed that many folks, in their room with gain and some EQ, were able to easily drive the 15H flat to 15hz or lower. You obviously need to have a good room, the right spot, but then it is critical to get the right settings on the 15H and use EQ when necessary.
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post #27 of 97 Old 03-01-2012, 07:25 AM
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I just found out: it was with two ports open. This was a mistake on Paul's part IMO, as he didn't measure in maximum extension mode. It does, however, absolve the CEA-2010 standard as flawed, but unfortunately places the blame on the reviewer. Paul said he ran out of time to test in maximum extension mode, but that is unacceptable IMO. With that said, output above 30Hz would have suffered, so it's a trade-off. There is a 27 page thread (short pages, though) about it that can be found here. Check it out if you guys are interested (I noticed shadyJ participated it in, and brought up some very good points)>

Not to rehash this topic, but if you read everything, it is not Paul's fault that he only tested in that mode. That is how the test was setup and the companies chose what mode to test in. Other subs that were tested also had multiple modes, but were only tested in a single mode.

"Because many of the shootout entrants have multiple controls allowing multiple settings which can result in a nearly infinite number of potential results to be fairly and accurately measured, each shootout entrant was given instructions to send me ONE SET of settings which I would use for CEA testing to determine the maximum output of the subwoofer. Dr Hsu was there in person for testing, and was able to tell me himself which settings we would use for our test."

Because of the questions raised after the initial testing, Paul retested the HSU. This includes tests with one port plugged.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...h-supplemental

I'm not saying Paul's results are accurate or not, and I agree there are still unanswered questions from that test, but Paul shouldn't be blamed for decisions made by others. If there are more questions or comments about Paul's tests, I suggest they be posted in the thread posted above, this thread, or the vtf15h thread, so this one doesn't get derailed even more.

-Mike
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post #28 of 97 Old 03-01-2012, 08:27 AM
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Audioholics has to pay to have these subwoofers tested (Gene made it very clear that he paid Paul). And based on the exchanges I was seeing between Audioholics and HSU, I don't think you will ever see the VTF-15H retested by AH. I even question if Audioholics and HSU will work together to test any subs in the future. Perhaps if somebody shipped their 15H to Josh and he did it on his own time and dime, And Josh probably would as he is that kind of guy.

That's good to know - thanks. I won't get my hopes up for a retest then...

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When I was researching subs to buy, I went back and read through everything. And it was clear that there were some issues with the first test, but Paul apparently retested the 15H and measured a number of different settings (one port open, two, different EQ and Q settings) but for whatever reason the measurement excel sheet I linked to contains, what I believe, is the original with both ports open, the wrong EQ and Q settings, and with the sub lying down (HSU still claimes that the triangular ports make it challenging to get a true measurement on it's side vs standing up). I really don't know what to make of the retest, or the fact that the review Sound And Vision and Home Theater Magazine performed on the HSU are so drastically different from Paul's review. It was not the subwoofer, HSU double checked the 15H Paul tested and they said it was fine and they retested it using the CEA-2010 standard and it matched their original numbers (and what Brent Butterworth measured). Something is just off between how the various parties are measuring. And I agree with shadyj. I don't think CEA-2010 is useless at all, but it is most likely only really useful when comparing numbers from the same reviewer (assuming they don't change their technique or equipment). As it seems, technique, equipment, and other variables can result in some very different findings. If Josh reviewed the HSU, I think it would be much easier to compare his number to the other subs he tested.

Again, good info - thanks. I was going to ask if you could provide more info on the follow up test, but it looks like ironhead posted the link below your post. Cool! The results still differ than Sound And Visions, though, although are within the margin of error so I don't see what all the fuss is about. I agree that we need to be careful about which measurements we're comparing; best to use the exact same equipment and techniques, as mentioned before. In this instance I am inclined to belive Paul's tests because he likely used the exact same equipment when re-testing the VTF-15H, while Brent admitted to using different equipment the second time, and also struggling with the CEA-2010 standard, whatever that means. Either way, if you directly compare both measurements (Audioholics and Sound and Vision) all fall roughly within a +/- 3dB margin of error.

Sound and Vision's measurements:
Bass output (CEA-2010 standard, 1 port open, EQ1)
Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 117.2 dB
20 Hz 114.8 dB
25 Hz 116.7 dB
31.5 Hz 121.6 dB

Audioholics measurements with one port open:
Frequency Maximum Peak SPL @ 1 Meter
20 Hz 111.6 dB
25 Hz 114.4 dB
32 Hz 118.0 dB
40 Hz 120.0 dB
50 Hz 120.0 dB
63 Hz 120.3 dB

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It is great that there is a standard, but I think people need to be very careful using these CEA-2010 numbers between two different reviewers when comparing subwoofers.

Absolutely. To be honest, I have more faith in Audioholics and Josh Ricci, not to mention Ilkka. I just don't trust these "big pro" magazines anymore, but that is all up to the individual.

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It is what it is. I noticed that many folks, in their room with gain and some EQ, were able to easily drive the 15H flat to 15hz or lower. You obviously need to have a good room, the right spot, but then it is critical to get the right settings on the 15H and use EQ when necessary.

I don't doubt that at all. My point is that the CEA-2010 standard is the best we've got, even though it's not without flaws. It is far better than someone's subjective listening session, which is why someone shouldn't purchase based upon the latter alone.

This whole HSU debacle has nothing to do with my point, and seems more personal to some of you than others (perhaps you all own that particular subwoofer, I don't know). I have no stake in this at all, and I honestly don't care which brands perform better than others; all I care about is which subwoofer performs best for the money, and I couldn't care less if that is HSU, Rythmik, SVS, etc.


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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Not to rehash this topic, but if you read everything, it is not Paul's fault that he only tested in that mode. That is how the test was setup and the companies chose what mode to test in. Other subs that were tested also had multiple modes, but were only tested in a single mode.

"Because many of the shootout entrants have multiple controls allowing multiple settings which can result in a nearly infinite number of potential results to be fairly and accurately measured, each shootout entrant was given instructions to send me ONE SET of settings which I would use for CEA testing to determine the maximum output of the subwoofer. Dr Hsu was there in person for testing, and was able to tell me himself which settings we would use for our test."

Because of the questions raised after the initial testing, Paul retested the HSU. This includes tests with one port plugged.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...h-supplemental

I'm not saying Paul's results are accurate or not, and I agree there are still unanswered questions from that test, but Paul shouldn't be blamed for decisions made by others. If there are more questions or comments about Paul's tests, I suggest they be posted in the thread posted above, this thread, or the vtf15h thread, so this one doesn't get derailed even more.

-Mike

Mike,

Thanks for providing the link. To be honest, there are two scenarios here. One is that what you're saying is true, and that HSU was present when Paul performed the measurements and was specific about how said measurements were to be taken. In that scenario NO ONE is to blame and the HSU fanboys need to stop ranting and raving about this. The second scenario is that Paul messed up or HSU was not in fact specific enough about how the measurements should be made (which is unlikely based upon Paul's statement that you posted above). In this alternate scenario the HSU fanboys will blame Paul, while the more objective folks will blame HSU or both. Either way, this does all apply to this particular thread because the OP has the right to know why one person's subwoofer measurements might different from another's, especially since the OP may be considering buying from one of these particular brands. Any further debates on the CEA-2010 measure standards should be taken to PM or another thread, however.

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post #29 of 97 Old 03-01-2012, 09:10 AM
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I'll very kindly ask Audioholics (or specifically Josh Ricci) to re-measure the HSU.

I'm not sure that the relationship is so good between them anymore after that whole debacle. I would love a chance to play with one and figure out what the deal with that sub is for myself just because all of the various tests are so at odds with each other. It has me curious. Unfortunately unless we know someone within driving distance willing to loan one to me for a few days it's unlikely to happen.

As far as CEA-2010...It should be reasonably repeatable within a dB or so regardless of equipment and all of that, but at the same time there are a LOT of potential areas that can affect the results. Using compensation factors, files, not leaving enough input headroom or output signal headroom, not calibrating correctly, confusion from reporting the results in different formats (1m, 2m, peak, rms, etc...). I think I know why there is a discrepancy in the two FV15HP results but it is just a hunch. It has to do with calibrating the CEA-2010 program and is a very easy mistake to make when first starting to use CEA-2010 which will result in 3dB less apparent output.
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post #30 of 97 Old 03-01-2012, 09:13 AM
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I'm not sure that the relationship is so good between them anymore after that whole debacle. I would love a chance to play with one and figure out what the deal with that sub is for myself just because all of the various tests are so at odds with each other. It has me curious. Unfortunately unless we know someone within driving distance willing to loan one to me for a few days it's unlikely to happen.

As far as CEA-2010...It should be reasonably repeatable within a dB or so regardless of equipment and all of that, but at the same time there are a LOT of potential areas that can affect the results. Using compensation factors, files, not leaving enough input headroom or output signal headroom, not calibrating correctly, confusion from reporting the results in different formats (1m, 2m, peak, rms, etc...). I think I know why there is a discrepancy in the two FV15HP results but it is just a hunch.

Thanks Josh. Care to share your hunch about the two FV15HP's?

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